BallReviews
General Category => Miscellaneous => Topic started by: blesseddad on August 25, 2013, 04:08:59 PM
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Check this out and see if you agree...
http://mikefagan.tumblr.com/post/28350535363/how-to-fix-bowling#notes
I love it and love to get another idea toward making bowling better, not just allowing the status quo to continue...
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Sounds good in theory, but it will never be applied in practice. Too many guys want handicap as the "equalizer". I sub in a Tuesday night league at an AMF house, I get -6 handicap, per game. -18 for a set, does anyone see anything wrong with that?
Nevertheless, handicap is here to stay, get rid of it, and bowling will collapse, for real. You think memberships and leagues are dwindling now, banish handicap, and its really over.
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I totally DISAGREE with Mike. Without handicap leagues will completely die. They are on the way out now .. no handicap will put the nail in the coffin! Do we have more 200+ averages in leagues ? Eliminate the handicap and the LT 200 average league bowlers will disappear. What leagues will you have then???
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He hasn't bowled in a league in how long? I think he's a little out of touch with the reality of the situation...
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The article makes a sound argument, but the reality is that bowlers will stop bowling in leagues if there is no handicap. A growing number of league bowlers are comprised of recreational bowlers who want a night out with their friends. They are perfectly content bowling 150's if it means they can socialize with others. They get a few hours out, take their 90% (sometimes even 100%) handicap, and hope to win some points over the course of 33 weeks and get some money at the end. They don't want to grow better as bowlers, they simply want to have a chance to win at their level and have fun.
Tell a team of 150 average bowlers they have to bowl a team of 200 average bowlers without handicap, and they will be miserable. With the USBC eliminating awards, it just adds to the frustration for them. They get no handicap, they get no awards for their accomplishments, they most likely win very few games. They essentially pay $15/week to hang with their friends, spend another $20-$30 at the bar, and win nothing but 3 hours with their buddies.
Mike Fagan seems to forget that eliminating handicap will cause hundreds of thousands of weekly recreational league bowlers to stop bowling. The only people left league bowling would be the higher level competitive bowlers who don't want/need handicap. Leagues would fold, bowling centers would hurt even more.
This is why there are both types of leagues. People who want to win once in a while, but still have fun, bowl in handicap leagues. Competitive bowlers who want the pure thrill of competition (and the typically higher prize funds that go along with it) bowl in scratch leagues. If high level players don't like giving handicap they should stay away from handicap leagues and stick to scratch leagues and tournaments.
I am a 200 average bowler, and I have bowled both handicap and scratch leagues. Both types of leagues have good points and bad points. Eliminating handicap is not the magic elixir to fixing what is wrong with bowling. Bowling proprietors are always going to gravitate to the sector of the business that generates revenue. That is the recreational bowler. The bowler that pays $5+ per game to bowl, rents shoes, buys food at the snack counter, buys candy from the vending machines, then plays games in the arcade for a little while. They bring their kids their for birthday parties, glow bowling, and have corporate events there.
Bowling needs a serious image change. It needs to go from a recreational activity that "everyone" can do, to a serious sport that people actually aspire to play at a higher level. Make it such that the televised bowling professionals make big money to win a tournament (i.e. golf.) Inspire kids to be a professional bowler when they grow up. Get real sponsors and true national level coverage and attention. Coverage in national newspapers, regular coverage on Sportscenter. Get back to the days where people would watch bowling on Sunday and want to go to the lanes the next day and try to bowl as well as the pros. In a nutshell, put excitement back into the sport for those who do not regularly participate. Bring a level of prestige and class back to the sport that has long disappeared. Create real bowling "stars"....household names. Show the trials and tribulations the pros have gone through to reach the national level. Give the women their own tour again. Put the collegiate bowling teams in the spotlight (and on TV) regularly. Create college bowling "stars" and future stars to watch. Everything is there, it just needs to be properly packaged and marketed...something that has eluded the industry for years. When the general public respects the seriousness of bowling, it will return to prosperity.
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The house where I bowl used to have every league at 100% handicap. Why do you think the better bowlers gravitated toward one league?...Ridiculous...Then, they run a fun league, a 9 pin No-Tap league to get people to start bowling and guess what? Bunch of old-timers taking up too many spots in this beginner league and guess what? 100% percent handicap based on 300...No, I am not kidding...
Just think, at some point, if we really want bowling to be seriously considered by about anyone, handicap has to go away for anybody above the recreational level or at least limit the percentages where sandbagging goes away (80% max should be the limit IMHO)...
If you are telling me the sport goes away when we take away the cheating, then the sport had nothing solid to build on anyway, and we really should have nothing to miss...
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He hasn't bowled in a league in how long? I think he's a little out of touch with the reality of the situation...
Thinking I know a possible reason why he does not bowl leagues, even if he had the time...
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The article makes a sound argument, but the reality is that bowlers will stop bowling in leagues if there is no handicap. A growing number of league bowlers are comprised of recreational bowlers who want a night out with their friends. They are perfectly content bowling 150's if it means they can socialize with others. They get a few hours out, take their 90% (sometimes even 100%) handicap, and hope to win some points over the course of 33 weeks and get some money at the end. They don't want to grow better as bowlers, they simply want to have a chance to win at their level and have fun.
Tell a team of 150 average bowlers they have to bowl a team of 200 average bowlers without handicap, and they will be miserable. With the USBC eliminating awards, it just adds to the frustration for them. They get no handicap, they get no awards for their accomplishments, they most likely win very few games. They essentially pay $15/week to hang with their friends, spend another $20-$30 at the bar, and win nothing but 3 hours with their buddies.
Mike Fagan seems to forget that eliminating handicap will cause hundreds of thousands of weekly recreational league bowlers to stop bowling. The only people left league bowling would be the higher level competitive bowlers who don't want/need handicap. Leagues would fold, bowling centers would hurt even more.
This is why there are both types of leagues. People who want to win once in a while, but still have fun, bowl in handicap leagues. Competitive bowlers who want the pure thrill of competition (and the typically higher prize funds that go along with it) bowl in scratch leagues. If high level players don't like giving handicap they should stay away from handicap leagues and stick to scratch leagues and tournaments.
I am a 200 average bowler, and I have bowled both handicap and scratch leagues. Both types of leagues have good points and bad points. Eliminating handicap is not the magic elixir to fixing what is wrong with bowling. Bowling proprietors are always going to gravitate to the sector of the business that generates revenue. That is the recreational bowler. The bowler that pays $5+ per game to bowl, rents shoes, buys food at the snack counter, buys candy from the vending machines, then plays games in the arcade for a little while. They bring their kids their for birthday parties, glow bowling, and have corporate events there.
Bowling needs a serious image change. It needs to go from a recreational activity that "everyone" can do, to a serious sport that people actually aspire to play at a higher level. Make it such that the televised bowling professionals make big money to win a tournament (i.e. golf.) Inspire kids to be a professional bowler when they grow up. Get real sponsors and true national level coverage and attention. Coverage in national newspapers, regular coverage on Sportscenter. Get back to the days where people would watch bowling on Sunday and want to go to the lanes the next day and try to bowl as well as the pros. In a nutshell, put excitement back into the sport for those who do not regularly participate. Bring a level of prestige and class back to the sport that has long disappeared. Create real bowling "stars"....household names. Show the trials and tribulations the pros have gone through to reach the national level. Give the women their own tour again. Put the collegiate bowling teams in the spotlight (and on TV) regularly. Create college bowling "stars" and future stars to watch. Everything is there, it just needs to be properly packaged and marketed...something that has eluded the industry for years. When the general public respects the seriousness of bowling, it will return to prosperity.
Thinking you might have missed the part where lower average bowler bowl with lower average bowlers, thus they can bowl scratch within their own ability levels...
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The article makes a sound argument, but the reality is that bowlers will stop bowling in leagues if there is no handicap. A growing number of league bowlers are comprised of recreational bowlers who want a night out with their friends. They are perfectly content bowling 150's if it means they can socialize with others. They get a few hours out, take their 90% (sometimes even 100%) handicap, and hope to win some points over the course of 33 weeks and get some money at the end. They don't want to grow better as bowlers, they simply want to have a chance to win at their level and have fun.
Tell a team of 150 average bowlers they have to bowl a team of 200 average bowlers without handicap, and they will be miserable. With the USBC eliminating awards, it just adds to the frustration for them. They get no handicap, they get no awards for their accomplishments, they most likely win very few games. They essentially pay $15/week to hang with their friends, spend another $20-$30 at the bar, and win nothing but 3 hours with their buddies.
Mike Fagan seems to forget that eliminating handicap will cause hundreds of thousands of weekly recreational league bowlers to stop bowling. The only people left league bowling would be the higher level competitive bowlers who don't want/need handicap. Leagues would fold, bowling centers would hurt even more.
This is why there are both types of leagues. People who want to win once in a while, but still have fun, bowl in handicap leagues. Competitive bowlers who want the pure thrill of competition (and the typically higher prize funds that go along with it) bowl in scratch leagues. If high level players don't like giving handicap they should stay away from handicap leagues and stick to scratch leagues and tournaments.
I am a 200 average bowler, and I have bowled both handicap and scratch leagues. Both types of leagues have good points and bad points. Eliminating handicap is not the magic elixir to fixing what is wrong with bowling. Bowling proprietors are always going to gravitate to the sector of the business that generates revenue. That is the recreational bowler. The bowler that pays $5+ per game to bowl, rents shoes, buys food at the snack counter, buys candy from the vending machines, then plays games in the arcade for a little while. They bring their kids their for birthday parties, glow bowling, and have corporate events there.
Bowling needs a serious image change. It needs to go from a recreational activity that "everyone" can do, to a serious sport that people actually aspire to play at a higher level. Make it such that the televised bowling professionals make big money to win a tournament (i.e. golf.) Inspire kids to be a professional bowler when they grow up. Get real sponsors and true national level coverage and attention. Coverage in national newspapers, regular coverage on Sportscenter. Get back to the days where people would watch bowling on Sunday and want to go to the lanes the next day and try to bowl as well as the pros. In a nutshell, put excitement back into the sport for those who do not regularly participate. Bring a level of prestige and class back to the sport that has long disappeared. Create real bowling "stars"....household names. Show the trials and tribulations the pros have gone through to reach the national level. Give the women their own tour again. Put the collegiate bowling teams in the spotlight (and on TV) regularly. Create college bowling "stars" and future stars to watch. Everything is there, it just needs to be properly packaged and marketed...something that has eluded the industry for years. When the general public respects the seriousness of bowling, it will return to prosperity.
I don't know where you bowl, but I do not know of many areas where there is an overabundance of scratch bowlers. There are almost no scratch leagues in my are of over 2 million people now, and it is not getting better...Why would a 200-210 want to bowl with a 220+ and get their heads handed to them when they can bag their way into a 190+ situation and go whack all those handicap bowlers you talk about...
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From the piece:
"I heard a story this weekend of a player getting criticized by other bowlers in the league for averaging “too highâ€. The player finished the league with a 248 average and he was criticized that he will not be able to bowl in any leagues and nobody will want him as a teammate because he will not be getting any handicap and probably receive negative handicap. Does anybody else see the problem with this?? We are the only sport that penalizes people for getting better!!!"-MF
Not everyone is willing or able to bowl on a sport compliant condition, although we all should (another argument for another time). Where else but bowling can this stupidity occur? And I know someone is going to mention caps...another way to encourage sandbagging...We bowled a trio a few years ago and won the league. We entered right at the max, but after two of us had record years and worked our asses off, we we over the cap and could not come back to the league. So, the two options were: (1) do the right thing, bowl our asses off and then leave the league, or (2) bag like crazy the last few weeks when we had the league in hand so we just get under the max so we can whack 'em again next year?
We chose #1, what would you have done?
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As far back as I know there has always been handicap leagues.
During bowling "glory years" most leagues were handicapped.
I don't believe having handicap is the major issue.
While draft leagues sound good in theory, the problem is you can get a volatile mix of personalities on a team and many will quit if they can't bowl with their friends.
Two issues have arrived that I see.
One is that the difference in averages between the top bowlers and average bowlers in league has increase dramatically. The average of men's average has not moved up much over the years probably around 170 but the top average in handicap leagues has probably gone from around 200 to 220+. This makes the average bowler feel at a great disadvantage.
Two is that in the past as bowlers got better they tended to look for better leagues to compete in. So in recreational leagues when bowlers got better many would look for new challenges in other higher average leagues. Now they are content to be a big fish in a small pond.
For scratch leagues to work you can't depend on everyone being 210+. You probably need 50% of the bowlers in the league wanting to move up and/or simply enjoy the competition. But so few seem willing to do that now.
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Handicap only works if EVERYBODY gets it. If handicap is based on 220, and you have people averaging 230 or 248 like mentioned above, then the higher average bowler has an advantage.
The downside to handicap, is sandbagging. Always has been. If USBC would keep up with tournament averages and/or tournament directors would make you bowl off your composite average from the last 3 to 5 years, sandbagging would be a lot harder.
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I don't know where you bowl, but I do not know of many areas where there is an overabundance of scratch bowlers. There are almost no scratch leagues in my are of over 2 million people now, and it is not getting better...Why would a 200-210 want to bowl with a 220+ and get their heads handed to them when they can bag their way into a 190+ situation and go whack all those handicap bowlers you talk about...
I live in an area where there are 2 independently owned and operated bowling centers within 10 miles of each other. Both have scratch and handicapped leagues. The high average bowlers (men and women) bowl the scratch leagues for the prize fund potential and also bowl in handicapped leagues with their lower average friends.
The larger center has two scratch leagues. The combined prize fund last season for those two leagues was $40,000. It is serious business. Teams re-arranging lineups each week for closer one-on-one match-ups, building teams that are within the cap by only 1 or 2 pins, etc. Does the cap encourage sandbagging...yes. Some of the high rollers around here admit to it without reservation. Some also revel in going to local handicap tournaments and "taking peoples' money" (their words, not mine.)
Maybe it is time for leagues to start actively enforcing USBC rule 17a-2, and 17a-3. People bowling their best would have nothing to worry about. Sandbaggers would be dealt with. Handicap isn't a bad thing, it just needs to be properly administered.
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Nice article Mike Fagan, but it will never work! As others have said prior, if handicap goes away, there goes the majority of your leagues. There are scratch leagues for those who want to compete and get better, and then there are handicap leagues for your recreational bowlers and your semi-competitive types. It is what it is!!!
The USBC did a study some time ago on handicapping. They found that the only way to truly equalize a handicap bowler versus a scratch bowler was to get 116% of whatever handicap number that league chose. This is probably very similar to the negative handicapping that goes on in some leagues.
Without this cushion, the "MEAT" of your leagues,.....average bowlers, occasional bowlers, and recreational bowlers will not even waste their time to show up....because they don't believe they stand a chance against competitive scratch bowlers. Getting rid of handicap would signal a death spiral for ALL of bowling!
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Bowling is already heading to the Death Bed. I completely agree with Fagan. Get rid of Handicap! This only promotes sandbaggers and cheaters. I don't know how many tournaments I have gone to where this 170 avg bowler shoots 730 scratch. Now with his massive bonus pins, gee I wonder who won. Is it possible for this to happen without sandbagging...sure but again that is the first thought that goes to everyones head. Yes, you are all correct where Handicap leagues are the majority of all league bowling in the US. I have gone to hundreds of centers across the US and you hardly ever see, 1)Bowlers actually practicing to get better 2)Pot Games don't ever happen anymore 3)With all this great equipment, avgs seem to be dropping?!?! Why is this!? I should not receive negative pins because I am good at the game. Sorry but that is just crap. I enjoy how the USBC Open Championship is because the have it broke down to Classified and Regulars. Both which are scratch but puts you in your average level. So if you want to sandbag go for it and bowl against the Classified group. I don't understand why we can not have more scratch league besides that people are just scared of losing. Tier it off based on their avg. 210-and higher, 185-209, and so forth. Basically like boxing or UFC, have divisions for your avg, you don't see a UFC fighter having to fight 1 handed because he is better than his opponent! Bowling is on a level where it is Ok not to be good in because you get handicap. Get better at the game by practicing! Help your center out at the same time by bringing some linage in to practice. The sport will never be what it use to that is for sure. Again this is my 2 cents on Handicap.
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Handicap works just fine . . in a reasonable scoring environment. You put 150 average bowlers on a PBA shot, and they will still average 150 because they're not good or consistent enough to really notice what's going on. But if the difference is from 150-200 instead of 150-230, that makes handicap a lot more reasonable. Is it a perfect solution? No, but in my mind it's not the biggest problem out there.
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When I lived in Rockford 90% of the mens leagues were scratch. Some were open with no limit. Most were 925-975 team limit for 5 player teams With todays scoring environment it would be 975-1025 / 5 man team. Many times we did what Mike described in the article and brought in a 150ish average bowler to meet the cap. Worked with him to improve and as a result were very competitive People were happy with the system as it worked well. Teams were given a 10 pin grace at the end of the year which allowed the same 5 to bowl together the following year ( in case someone got "hot" at the end of the year) but had to be at or under the cap at the end of the next year to continue together the following year
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Meh, handicap is not the issue on THS..
I thought it was more like were all just not into the sport like we used to be as a culture...his buddy billy oneil thinks the shots are too easy ...'save bowling' anyone remember?
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Meh, handicap is not the issue on THS..
I thought it was more like were all just not into the sport like we used to be as a culture...his buddy billy oneil thinks the shots are too easy ...'save bowling' anyone remember?
The sport being too easy is an entirely different argument...
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Meh, handicap is not the issue on THS..
I thought it was more like were all just not into the sport like we used to be as a culture...his buddy billy oneil thinks the shots are too easy ...'save bowling' anyone remember?
The sport being too easy is an entirely different argument...
It is, but given that handicap would work better in a lower scoring environment factors into the conversation. Handicap in the current environment is a nightmare, yes, but treating symptoms instead of the cause isn't going to fix the problem.
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Fagan is off the mark here. Handicap has been around a long time and others stated, part of the game in its glory days.
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I feel bad for him lol. He spent some time writing that blog. He hasnt bowled a league in 'x' amount of years, yet he knows what is wrong with regular amateur leagues. Its just as bad as us mortals griping about whats wrong with the pba. I think he should spend sometime working on whats wrong with the pba, while we figure out how to get more people involved in our sport. Oh and btw, bowling isnt my job either it is his...id figure out how to gain $ for the pba. Do things like chris paul does, cross promote, etc...OR....maybe he should organize a draft league and blog about its success...it would put his thoughts in motion atleast.
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Fagan acknowledges that there are many factors that are contributing to the decline of bowling. He's not putting it all on handicap, but I do believe he has a point.
Plain and simple, handicap is a competiton killer. In many cases it's subtle, but in general, it puts more emphasis on manipulating the system than putting the time and energy into getting better. It's hard to take any sport seriously where base scores can have little meaning.
The problem with "scratch" is that the vast majority of bowlers don't have a clue about the permutations it can take. They hear the word "scratch", and they immediately think it means the best bowlers in the house get together, steal the prize money, and run away with the league.
Capped scratch and Draft leagues bring relative equity to teams, and provide a much more satisfying experience than handicap. My experience has been that most bowlers who make the transition to scratch don't go back to handicap if they have a choice. Generally, they're more likely to work on their respective games, make the effort to participate in outside tournaments, and maybe even give PBA Regionals a try.
I don't know why anyone wouldn't consider this all a good thing.
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Capped Scratch Leagues is not the answer. Those leagues have problems too. He states that high average bowlers sandbag in handicap leagues, well I can guarantee the same happens in capped leagues. And there is just as much complaining and whining in capped leagues as there is in handicap. Usually because there is more money on the line in these types of leagues.
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sandbagging is even worse in scratch leagues. There was a 60 team 3-man scratch team in this area 10 years ago. Teams would take an entire year off, bowl in a different league and dog it so they could fit. They did this every other year.
Fast Forward 10 years, there is now 7 teams in that league.
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I am surprised that there is not one mention of golf in this entire thread. Except in pro tournaments you never see a scratch golf event. Both sports have one thing in common. Competitors are not created equal, and without handicap there would be no competitive game for anyone. Lots of sandbagging and problems with both, but the answer isn't throwing out the handicap system.
Also, the best teams still win most of the league titles even with 100% handicap.
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I agree with avabob as well. Golf and Bowling are the 2 closet sports to each other and both have the same issues with Handicap. This is just one subject that is just about impossible to control who is sandbaggin or not. This is also the results of why we see less and less local tournaments being held. Most of them are Handicap Tournaments. Which the result of the winner is normally a person with some decent amount of handicap and there is no way of telling if the person sandbagged to get it or not. When it happens year to year sure you can tell he is a sandbagger. I see a lot of options and solutions being presented but even still don't have the best answer to fix the problem. Where does Bowling go from here?!?
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sandbagging is even worse in scratch leagues. There was a 60 team 3-man scratch team in this area 10 years ago. Teams would take an entire year off, bowl in a different league and dog it so they could fit. They did this every other year.
Fast Forward 10 years, there is now 7 teams in that league.
Sounds like the cap was too low....or the shot was too easy. Either way, things could have been fixed a long time ago. Something done for the sake of competition, like the progressive league idea or a draft type situation like mike was talking about.
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Also, the best teams still win most of the league titles even with 100% handicap.
Yet, most bowlers do not believe this statement.
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I am surprised that there is not one mention of golf in this entire thread. Except in pro tournaments you never see a scratch golf event. Both sports have one thing in common. Competitors are not created equal, and without handicap there would be no competitive game for anyone. Lots of sandbagging and problems with both, but the answer isn't throwing out the handicap system.
Also, the best teams still win most of the league titles even with 100% handicap.
Golf is one of the few sports using handicap, and for the same traditional reasons (league and tourney play enticements for prizes/money, to get lesser players to show up when at an obvious disadvantage).
I've played competitive sports my entire life, those are the only two to give points when you haven't earned them, or punish you if you do "too well". I think handicaps are shameful, in terms of the sport being a "sport". It's a tradition, but it doesn't mean it's good for the integrity of the game.
But, people like it because they get to compete when they're not earning it. I get it.
BTW, define "best" in terms of "best teams will still win". If by best you mean the most consistent? Or, the best by starts low ends high? Ok. But, that doesn't mean the winning team on a high-handicap league are the best bowlers. I've won several handicap leagues and our team is far from the best.
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I've played competitive sports my entire life, those are the only two to give points when you haven't earned them, or punish you if you do "too well". I think handicaps are shameful, in terms of the sport being a "sport". It's a tradition, but it doesn't mean it's good for the integrity of the game.
But, people like it because they get to compete when they're not earning it. I get it.
A big +1.
BTW, to all those saying caped scratch doesn't work well, you either haven't bowled in it or have suffered through some really weak league rules. The potential problems mentioned can mostly be eliminated, unlike the nonsense that spreads like cancer in handicap.
Handicap may not be the major problem related to the health of bowling, but Fagan got it right in identifying it.
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Golf seems to have a little better handle on handicap in that it measures scoring potential more than average scores. But sandbagging is still a problem.
Softball has classes/flights of teams and limit home run hitters. Tennis has classes/flights of players, Racquetball has classes/flights of players, Horseshoes has classes/flights of players, these are sports I'm familiar with that all have a form of handicapping.
Putting team average caps is just another way of trying to even the playing field, another form of handicapping. And I'm sure sandbagging exists in that format as well.
Bowling will not survive if it was only in a pure scratch format. You can't just write off 80% of league participants who would quit if no handicap existed in leagues.
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Here's my thought on tourney bowling. Why aren't there qualifiers I golf in large medal and match play. They have qualifiers then everyone is bracketed. You'll naturally have the sandbaggers cheat into a lower bracket and the top tier will be the true scratch guys. Instead of the winner being the bagger he'll get a smaller amount in lower bracket but the top tier guys takes the big winnings. You could have a 3-4 game qualifier same day or even before. Then, 4-8 games for the event after guys are in brackets.
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Putting team average caps is just another way of trying to even the playing field, another form of handicapping. And I'm sure sandbagging exists in that format as well.
Bowling will not survive if it was only in a pure scratch format. You can't just write off 80% of league participants who would quit if no handicap existed in leagues.
Pin, capped scratch, or a draft system for that matter, is just a mechanism for initially putting teams together. Once those teams are on the lanes, it's pure straight up competition. Add match-point in the mix (we have that in out league) and you have a whole different competitive mentality. There is almost no incentive for sandbagging.
You have to have some way of trying to form some level of equity in forming teams. It's no different than professional team sports that use drafts (and in basketball, monetary caps) to try and achieve some level of competitive equity. Everyone gets that you can't have wildly different talent across teams. Nobody is advocating that.
For senior and women's leagues, and even adult mixed leagues where it's more about just having fun and bowling with whoever you want, handicap format will always make sense. However, it makes absolutely no sense in classic mens leagues if you want bowling to have integrity as a sport.
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[/quote]
BTW, to all those saying caped scratch doesn't work well, you either haven't bowled in it or have suffered through some really weak league rules. The potential problems mentioned can mostly be eliminated, unlike the nonsense that spreads like cancer in handicap.
Handicap may not be the major problem related to the health of bowling, but Fagan got it right in identifying it.
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No, I have bowled capped leagues and there is something you have not considered. We bowled the trio at a house with conditions that were higher scoring than most. When the shot is so easy, compared to other houses, you have no chance of winning the league one year without breaking up and finding a new team the next. You want to come in close to the max, and then find yourself 15-20 over at the end of the year, and then what? BTW, raising the max just expands the gap between the bottom and the top of the league and eventually leads to the league shrinking, due to the lack of people wanting to get their heads handed to them every year. This league was 555 max in 1987 when I first joined. The last year I bowled it in 2009, the max was 625 and the talk was to go to 635 the next year. There were just more than half as many teams as the late 80's...Caps are better than nothing, but certainly not the cure...
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You can use flights ( divisions in bowling ) for tournaments, but it doesn't work well in leagues. Lots of issues with capped scratch leagues too. Most people don't want to bowl scratch, and also want to bowl with their friends, not a group put together to make a cap. Scratch bowling should be limited to the top tier of bowlers who want to compete at a high level. Capped scratch leagues can work well in this environment as it gives newcomers who want to compete at a high level a place to play. For the other 90% of bowlers, be happy they are willing to bowl an organized league once a week, and set it up to be the most enjoyable experience it can be for them.
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You can use flights ( divisions in bowling ) for tournaments, but it doesn't work well in leagues. Lots of issues with capped scratch leagues too. Most people don't want to bowl scratch, and also want to bowl with their friends, not a group put together to make a cap. Scratch bowling should be limited to the top tier of bowlers who want to compete at a high level. Capped scratch leagues can work well in this environment as it gives newcomers who want to compete at a high level a place to play. For the other 90% of bowlers, be happy they are willing to bowl an organized league once a week, and set it up to be the most enjoyable experience it can be for them.
+1 million on the idea that we should be happy for ALL who still want to bowl league at all...
More sanctioned bowlers in 1916 than in 2013....crazy!
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Nothing against Mike, but he's way off base here. It's like listening to Jeff Gordon give a critique of how a Chevy Cavalier accelerates and handles on a superspeedway.
My wife and I have time to bowl once a week, and we want to do it together. I'm basically a scratch bowler, she average 140. We've been bowling together for 10 years now, she's had lessons, the whole nine yards -- and has improved from 115 to 140 in a decade.
If you took handicap away from us, she would certainly quit and I probably would too.
By the way, we live in a town of 35k people, and our local house is full almost every night. There are 24 lanes here, and all 24 are in use by our league on Tuesdays. The reason for this isn't some magical handicap rule, it's that a lot of people who love the sport volunteer their time to recruit, and the house supports the efforts.
Given that nearly every negative change in bowling, golf, softball, etc., has occurred because of societal changes and not issues specific to those sports themselves, it takes a societal push to fix them. Not a change in math.
Jess
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Given that nearly every negative change in bowling, golf, softball, etc., has occurred because of societal changes and not issues specific to those sports themselves, it takes a societal push to fix them. Not a change in math.
Jess
Bingo! +1 Could not agree more.
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Given that nearly every negative change in bowling, golf, softball, etc., has occurred because of societal changes and not issues specific to those sports themselves, it takes a societal push to fix them. Not a change in math.
Jess
But the math has changed. We have over 70 million who find time to participate in our sport every year, but yet we have less league bowlers (sanctioned anyway) than we did in 1916. And if the math had not changed, why would so many centers be closing around the country?
Speaking of math: You can use stats to prove a hippo makes a great race horse, too, but I don't think you load it up to go to Kentucky for the Derby...
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I am glad for this total discussion, because, whether you agree or disagree with the opinion, the fact you commented means you care enough about bowling to comment or make your feelings known. We need a lot more like you, before the sport disappears completely!
We need to do what is best for the sport, and having discussions about ways to make it better can only help...
It's only my opinion, I could be wrong, but I doubt it...
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Just as it had little to do with high scoring, the decline in league bowling has little to do with handicap either.
Bowling (like golf ) is primarily a recreation activity for most people. When it started to boom in the late 50's there was not a lot of competition for the recreational dollar, and proprietors were able to channel beginners into competitive leagues on the model that had been used for 40 years. Nothing really wrong with that model except that as more and more recreation options became available over the next 30 years people opted to pick the recreation activities that fit their lifestyle and time frames the best. 30+ week league bowling commitments did not fit peoples desires as well as the options from other activities.
I think the decline in league memberships have probably pretty much bottomed out, and there may be the opportunity for some modest growth
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But the math has changed. We have over 70 million who find time to participate in our sport every year, but yet we have less league bowlers (sanctioned anyway) than we did in 1916. And if the math had not changed, why would so many centers be closing around the country?
Speaking of math: You can use stats to prove a hippo makes a great race horse, too, but I don't think you load it up to go to Kentucky for the Derby...
I'm talking about his handicap math, not the math of large numbers (league membership vs. total population, etc.).
We're not the only ones in that boat. Rounds played in golf is going down. I've watched several softball leagues fold up in multiple cities the last 20 years. People aren't going to bowl or not bowl because of what you do with handicap numbers. They will choose to bowl or not bowl based on things like expense, time commitment, and whether they think they can get a social payoff.
Mike is wanting to drop handicap because he feels that if you force people to be challenged, they will work harder in order to avoid the embarrassment of looking bad on the shot and/or continually losing to someone better than them.
They won't work harder, they'll quit.
Handicap has been in this game for at least 70 years and probably longer. People didn't suddenly wake up one day and decide it was something they couldn't live with. The single biggest change bowling has had to deal with is the elimination of shift-work manufacturing jobs. I lived near a US Steel plant for a few years and when they eliminated a shift, it immediately wiped out a 32-team league populated entirely by US Steel workers. Bam, gone. Do you know how many teams' worth of people I've known to quit a league over handicap or scoring pace in 25 years? Fewer than 10 teams' worth. At this pace, by the year 2038 we *might* have those two numbers equalize.
Bowlers get all romantic about the notion that people will come running back to the sport if we somehow find one or two magic tweaks to make in the format. The truth is, you would have to ditch the internet and console video gaming, bring back U.S. manufacturing, teach parents not to be "helicopter parents," get rid of kids' soccer and a bunch of other things in order to bring people back to the game en masse.
The only people helped by the elimination of handicap are either the elite-level league bowlers, or the expert sandbaggers who would immediately float down under the nearest level cap. I credit Mike for trying to come up with an idea but he picked the wrong one.
Jess
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We're not the only ones in that boat. Rounds played in golf is going down.
Golf is hdcp. with a course rating and slope with where you play your tee shot. Bowing is not.
I've watched several softball leagues fold up in multiple cities the last 20 years
Softball whether slow pitch or fast pitch is a scratch sport not hdcp.
Both of those sports are bad comparisons.
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We're not the only ones in that boat. Rounds played in golf is going down.
Golf is hdcp. with a course rating and slope with where you play your tee shot. Bowing is not.
I've watched several softball leagues fold up in multiple cities the last 20 years
Softball whether slow pitch or fast pitch is a scratch sport not hdcp.
Both of those sports are bad comparisons.
No, Scott, it's a very apt comparison. We're talking about recreational sports that the average Joe can compete in through his adult and senior years. We're not talking about the PBA and/or high-roller amateur bowling vs. U.S. Amateur-level golfers. We're talking about league bowlers versus league golfers versus league softball players vs. league archery teams or what have you.
We're talking about participation numbers. No two sports are exactly alike, top to bottom, so if you're going to wait to find one of those before you'll allow a bowling discussion, you'll conveniently wait forever.
Bowling is in the exact same boat as golf, softball, or any other adult rec/comp sport. It's not the minutiae of the handicap/flighting systems that makes a difference, it's the resource-to-time-value systems that make a difference. If people invest x-amount of time into something, they want to feel like they're getting value for their dollar. And if you can't provide them with something fun to do, they will find something else.
You may not like the fact that some people don't find having to compete against scratch-level bowlers in a scratch environment on tough shots fun, but you liking it or not liking it doesn't mean it isn't true.
We've been offering bowlers scratch leagues and PBAX leagues now for a decade. You haven't seen people running to them in large numbers. And now Fagan's solution is to force them to do it? And people actually agree with this ridiculous plan? Wow.
Jess
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I've just joined my first sanctioned league. Ever. I'm 46. Prior to this year the closest thing I ever came to competitive bowling was an intramural league in high school (there is an actual bowling team now!). I did not have my own ball until January of this year (used). I always enjoyed going bowling recreationally, just never found the time to do it (or more accurately it was out if my consciousness most if the time). What changed this for me was when I took my then 11 year old son bowling in late December last year. He enjoyed it and asked to go again the following week. Before I knew it he was signed up for the Junior league, I found him a coach for lessons and he has been majorly into it. I've been brought along for the ride. We did an adult junior league together this summer (unsanctioned) and he is now involved in the junior bowlers tour and his juniors starts Saturday. I signed up for a sanctioned mixed league so I could have an average to partner with him in adult junior tournaments.
What does this have to do with the subject? Just wanted to provide background to illustrate where my perspective is. I don't think handicap is the major issue. I do think it can be and is an issue at some times, in some places and with some people. There is no magic perfect fix. Cheating (yes I think sandbagging is cheating) exists in all sports and there is no way to cleanse it entirely. What must be guarded against is to make sure the solution is not worse than the problem. If USBC is turning their focus on being more strictly a governing body, then they should be putting their brain cells on this issue. Maybe it's standardizing handicaps for sanctioned leagues. Maybe it's breaking leagues into divisions. Or combinations of solutions. But like I said, I don't think that is the major issue (albeit not and insignificant one). To me the issue is marketing. Marketing to youth. And marketing to adults who are not already hip deep.
First the youth. The junior league my son participated in was fine but with few exceptions, seemed more recreational than anything. The 'coaches' didn't really coach (in any meaningful way) and it was more monitoring. Repeating "keep your arm straight" to any kid from 4-14 is not coaching. There is no practice per se. Other than warmups. Some houses may promote practicing, I don't want to throw a blanket in all junior leagues, but without practice and coaching, what good is it? How about $1 games for kids in junior league any time they go so they can practice? How about setting aside one night a week where kids in the league can practice and actually be coached. This is the low hanging fruit.
How about local pros (I'm looking at you now Mr. Fagan) provide time or promotional activity for local youth bowling. Seminars, camps, scholarship tournaments. Parker Bohn just had his annual youth scholarship tournament this past weekend in New Jersey. Tremendous success in my eyes. But this needs to be done more. Now maybe Mike does these things and I'm unaware because I don't live in his area. If he does, then kudos. If not, stop trying to fix a problem top-down in ancillary symptoms.
The kids are where it's at. They are competitive by nature. Market to them. Get pros involved. Make leagues feel like real sports leagues not just Saturday morning goofing around. If I just dropped my son in a league and left it at that, he would not be near the bowler he has become and is becoming, and it is entirely likely he would have lost interest and would not have wanted to sign up again this year. But I went out and found him coaching since none was offered at his center. Through his coach (shout out to Krista at BowlerX) we learned of the Pennsylvania Junior Bowlers Tour. So he worked toward competing in those. It made it a REAL sport. And he improved. As he improved, his love of the game grows. As his love of game grows, his desire to go bowling and practice grows. Frankly he's insatiable at this point.
That's how the sport grows. But it takes effort. This isn't the field of dreams. USBC needs to work with local bowling centers to expand the programs to make it more of a youth sport and less of a youth activity. You're not going to magically expand the sport by trying to 'fix' adult leagues. You have to take the time and effort to build a better youth foundation which will ultimately trickle up to the adult level.
Which brings me to point two. Adults who are not already hip deep. I speak of my personal thoughts here and realize experiences vary. It's a little intimidating being a lone adult who has recently decided to try to get into it. Leagues are established. Teams are established. I don't have a group if people to form a new team with. So I have to sign up and hope for the best. I'm a bit uncomfortable with that because I'm always uncomfortable in situations where I feel like an outsider coming in. I think the turn off I'd that some people who are new get the feeling that you're viewed as invading the club. Again, that may be just me and I have no solutions, but it's a bit intimidating. But I also don't want to be told "you don't want to join 'X' league because that's go people who's average is 'Y' and they're really good. Okay, my average isn't 'Y'....yet. But I'm not looking for something to do, I'm looking to compete and improve. So why should I be steered to a league and plopped on a team where I am by far the best bowler. That doesn't help me. I may be new new to leagues but that doesn't mean I'm just in it for kicks.
Don't worry about the handicaps per se, work on creating situations where people can compete, or not compete, at levels right for them. And don't crush the spirits of newbies but steering them to situations that are not right for them.
If you've lasted this far, sorry for the dissertation.
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Here's my thoughts...
The mentality of today's society is evolving.
Mr Fagan ideas and some of the comments posted in this thread are designed on the concept of if you remove handicap the bowler will practice and want to improve.
That is where I think the error is. Today's society has evolved into a "quick pay-off reward society". A lot of people no longer want to put in the hard work or fathers, mothers, grand-fathers, and grand-mothers had to put in to live.
Most everyone's lives are easier now than 30 years ago.
Don't need to spend 30 minutes cooking dinner, I can microwave it in 3 minutes.
I don't have to go to the library and research 5 books for my term paper, I simply "GOOGLE" it.
Most people are not going to want to practice to get better at bowling. 3 to 6 games a week in league is their practice.
Unless you are a college bowler, you are probably married, have kids, or have a 9-5 job. That means realistically, the only time you can practice is in the evening or on weekends. Well most houses during the week, have leagues so you are not practicing then, you are bowling a league. On the weekends, they are putting out little to no oil or glow bowl. But realistically, you are spending time with the family or running your errands that you have to do in order to get through life.
I think realistically, the only bowlers who practice consistently, are people who are making bowling their current career choice.
And I think that's where the rubber hits the road. When someone is depending on bowling to feed their family and someone who can not practice and work a 9-5 and get a little hdcp can beat them taking food from their table, I can see why they want hdcp to go away.
I don't have an answer. I don't think there is a simple answer.
I agree with others that say if you take away hdcp even only at say 200 and above or 210, the bowlers at that level who are not career bowlers know they do not have the time to put in the effort to be at the level of a Mike Fagan, Chris Barnes, or the elite career bowlers in their area so most will simply choose not to compete any more and just go spend more time with their family. And then we have less bowlers.
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I just see a more faceted issue. I reject "most people are this" and "all handicaps should go". I just don't understand why it's all one way or all another. If bowling houses offered a variety of products, then everyone will find something that suits them. When there are 6 leagues that are all the same except the name, and one that's a super scratch league, who are you serving mr. bowling proprietor?
Some people are high level so they should have those high level leagues. Some people are 100 averages and are just looking to get out. So something for them. Some are 180s and looking for competitive and development. Know your customers and tailor your products.
Does that address the individuals who want to be big fish in small ponds? They sandbag to get in a lower league so they can 'crush'? No. But you will never get rid of that. There will always be one of those guys. But a good rule structure may root them out locally eventually.
I have a great built in excuse to practice more than average these days because my son wants to. I, being a dedicated father, am only too happy to sacrifice my time for the betterment of my child. ;D
I don't see it so much as society changing. Everyone has a hobby or activity they allow themselves. For those who choose bowling, they'll do the little things to improve...if given the opportunity. The houses need to meet them half way. Establish a program that fosters the activity. Not just take the easy route of setting up cookie cutter leagues and let them run on inertia.
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So my first night of league is over. This is the league of 90% of 220 and the high in the league last year was 219, BTW. Just shot over 720 the opening night and will get no pins FOREVER, since the last month has seen me throw it better than I ever have, even at age 45.
And the incentive to bowl with these knuckleheads (not my team, the league) again is what?
The team to the right of us, with their anchor opening the league at 30 under his summer average. And this is the team that won the league last year...when their 150-170 all averages 170-195 the last 6 weeks of the league...
The team to the left of us is even worse.
I will bowl my best every game, no matter if the result is 140 or 240.
Tell me again why Mike is wrong. Tell me again why I shouldn't push for a progressive league or some other penalty to sack these baggers?
Good frickin thing there is only about $50 difference between first and last. (8 lane center, 8 lane house)
Baggers SUCK!
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Again, I think it has more to do with the scoring pace than handicap. Handicap problems are a byproduct of the issues with the scoring pace. Handicap problems fluctuate with scoring pace, because the recommended fix for it is to create divisions or tiers. If the average range is 150-180, handicap isn't an issue. When you're trying to handicap averages of 150-230, all the sudden you have huge issues, that's way too big of a range. That's why golf tournaments are flighted. Maybe they ought to do that with bowling.
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Again, I think it has more to do with the scoring pace than handicap. Handicap problems are a byproduct of the issues with the scoring pace. Handicap problems fluctuate with scoring pace, because the recommended fix for it is to create divisions or tiers. If the average range is 150-180, handicap isn't an issue. When you're trying to handicap averages of 150-230, all the sudden you have huge issues, that's way too big of a range. That's why golf tournaments are flighted. Maybe they ought to do that with bowling.
+1.
Would be much easier to flight things if were still had 5 million leagues bowlers, instead of the less than 2 million. Then, the more bowlers would allow you to go something like 150-180, 180-210 and 210 and above...
Still feel like the scoring pace is not in the bowlers' control and blaming the pace is still penalizing those who are getting better, whether it be from better knowledge, better coaching or better equipment. In addition, no one talks about the fact most houses are now synthetic or overlay, so the playing field is so much better for consistency and scoring...the pins are so light now, they fly everywhere, the pin decks are like trampolines, the lane conditions are done by sophisticated machines, not some old dude with a towel and a bug sprayer...and on and on and on.
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The other part of the equation here is money. Some people, will stoop to any level (sandbagging) to win money. No matter how small of an amount.
No system you can put in place besides eliminating HDCP will prevent it.
However, the consequence of that is a majority of bowlers will just quit.
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I had a conversation in a bar after league with a good friend who talked to me about the fact that everyone averages 200, but nobody practices anymore. Only thing noteworthy about this conversation is that it took place in 1975. The more things change, the more they stay the same.