Author Topic: A thought on the proposed ball specs adjustment by USBC (Read 18472 times)

Luke Rosdahl · « **on:** December 18, 2017, 11:33:23 AM »

First of all, personally I don't care. If it's legal, I'll bowl with it, if it's not, I won't, don't care. I think USBC is missing a chance to differentiate recreation from sport though. The average bowler doesn't get patterns. Yeah the blue oil looks cool on the PBA shows, but there's no blue oil at league, so they have no basis for comparison. You can show them lane graphs and pictures, but until they actually see it AND bowl on it, they're not going to get it or understand. HOWEVER, it's really easy to understand the difference between college baseball players using aluminum bats and the pros using wood, and it's nothing that has to be explained to be understood. All you have to say is that the pros have equipment restrictions, they can't use the balls that make it "easier" to score like league bowlers can, because when people see pros using the same balls they do bowling on lanes that look the same as theirs, they see no difference.

Now the issue for the manufacturers becomes that they lose advertisement for balls that aren't legal for use on the PBA, but I really don't think the PBA has much influence on ball purchases anymore. Literally not once in the last three years have I had anyone come into the shop and say, "I want the ball -insert random pro- won with the other day." I could be wrong, but 10-15 years ago, that happened all the time. Somebody would win with a ball on a Sunday, and Monday I'd have people in there wanting one. Now it seems to be primarily consumer and manufacturer driven.

This idea makes sense to me, continue with the current specs, but put spec restrictions on equipment for use in higher level competition. The funny thing is it doesn't even matter, most people I know use equipment that's inside the new rumored specs anyway, not going to hurt my feelings, but it could hurt manufacturers who all the sudden lose maybe a couple ball lines, and more limited specs means more limited reactions which means more limited choices which means less revenue most likely. There NEEDS to be a bolder line between recreation and sport, and it needs to be achieved without adjusting the recreation side.

leftybowler70 · « **Reply #91 on:** December 22, 2017, 12:41:46 PM »

Yes sir, unfortunately.

HackJandy · « **Reply #92 on:** December 22, 2017, 02:24:56 PM »

Good thing Hyperbowl is here to ride to the rescue. Seriously though guess I can at least stop bitching as my contribution to ending that pattern. What happens happens and will let the indifference begin. Nobody is stopping me from going to lanes with the balls I own and nobody will so its all good.

Metal_rules · « **Reply #93 on:** December 24, 2017, 10:13:58 AM »

I am completely against the ball spec change. If there has to be a change, then change the lane conditions. If the balls spec change does happen, and it is a 5 year grace period. I will not buy ANY new equipment. I will use what I have now till then. I will be 58 years young in 5 years. Then I will either retire from bowling OR bowl in a non sanctioned league. Case closed.

BowlingforSoup · « **Reply #94 on:** December 24, 2017, 12:03:32 PM »

Only thing that needs to change is making your local association check these lame ass lane conditions.90% of house shots probably wouldn't pass.They check once a year the lane man knows then puts out white pattern or something legal.I know this for a fact thats what our association does.Instead of the stupid 3 unit rule which was from urethane days up it to 6 units.Then watch the scores lower.Ball manufacturers need to just start there own association .USBC is a joke cant even enforce simple rules.

Pinbuster · « **Reply #95 on:** December 24, 2017, 12:41:45 PM »

There are several reasons why the USBC doesn't really try to enforce the lane dressing rule. Primarily because if a score is denied, the whiny bowler sues the USBC. You only have to look at the history of the ABC in the 1980's when they did try to enforce lane dressing rules and were almost sued out of existence. So they gave up put in the limited distance rule and then finally the rule we have today.

Besides with the ability of the balls to manipulate lane conditions, How long would 3 units last on on the lane? The 3 units would probably be gone by the end of the practice session and then the whiny bowlers would complain that there was some carry down that made it harder to score.

So they propose a rule to limit the ability of the ball to change the lanes. Of course the rule will never get in but all the whiny bowlers complain that it might take away their chance to score.

Continue to whine about everything, it just make you that much easier to beat.

Get rid of the USBC if you want chaos. You can't legally use their rules as I'm sure they are copyrighted.

Who is going to check lane beds to be level? The BPAA proprietors, I doubt it.

Who is going to check gutter depths, pin specs, ball specs? The manufactures they have in interest in making illegal equipment.

Who is going to maintain a national average database?

Run national, state, and local tournaments?

Bond league prize money? Punish league officers embezzling funds?

I shudder to think what is going to happen as the baby boomers start dropping out in mass. You'll be hard pressed to find a bowling center except in larger metro areas and then it will be about cosmic bowling.

JessN16 · « **Reply #96 on:** January 05, 2018, 02:27:57 AM »

I guess I posted in the wrong thread because most of my comments are in the "About making some balls illegal" thread and there's no reason to repeat those here...

Staying completely within a discussion of the USBC here, it needs to go out of business. I say that as a former association president, too. It needs to go out of business right now.

Someone mentioned having the ball companies and the BPAA take over certification. I'm not sure they're any better. But they basically can't be any worse. The unfortunate truth is 30 years ago, just about every center had a competent lane guy. These days it's probably 1 of every 3, 1 of every 5. Our other big problem is the number of houses going no-league. The BPAA holds all the leverage for our future, and it's about time to recognize that and let them drive the bus as best they can.

Since people like to compare bowling and golf so much, how many of you guys can say you have played a course set up for a tour event? I'd wager 99 of 100 semi-serious golfers can't say that. But all of them have USGA handicaps, I'll bet. Well, I *can* say I have -- and it was just an LPGA course, the RTJ Capitol Hill/Senator course in Prattville, Ala. I played it the day before the tournament started. If I went a foot outside the fairway, I had grass up to my shins. Glass for putting surfaces. And you could tell where they had allowed the fairway grass to pinch in from its usual cut.

My point is, there's nothing similar between Senator set up for a LPGA tour event and my local country club on a normal Sunday, other than they're both outside. Watching some of our self-appointed bowling caretakers try to force every competitive bowler onto sport conditions is suicidal.

Nothing about bowling's decline is tied to score. Nothing. I used to get in all kinds of arguments here with that writer (can't remember the name) over this. It's length of season, it's the loss of the blue-collar factory shift worker, it's the decline of the middle-class earner in general, it's the internet, it's video games, it's the fact society doesn't like to socialize in public the way it did 50 years ago. And it's not just us. It's every participatory sport in the country. We used to have adult soccer leagues here, a bustling adult softball league, etc. They're all gone. Golf is declining as fast or faster than we are and courses are going out of business left and right.

League bowling will never "come back." We might be able to stabilize it but we're not going to see a long-term revival. If the USBC wants to live, it needs to focus on protecting what it has for as long as it can, and hope for a miracle. That's literally your best hope.

I don't think the USBC knows how to fix itself, though, and I don't think enough USBC regional/national employees care about much more than job preservation. Maybe something better will rise from its ashes, maybe not. But I'm done defending the organization and for that matter, will do whatever I can, however small that might be, to end it if it keeps going down the road it's on.

Jess

HackJandy · « **Reply #97 on:** January 05, 2018, 11:19:59 AM »

>Who is going to check lane beds to be level? The BPAA proprietors, I doubt it.
>Who is going to check gutter depths, pin specs, ball specs? The manufactures they have in interest in making illegal equipment.
>Who is going to maintain a national average database?
>Run national, state, and local tournaments?
>Bond league prize money? Punish league officers embezzling funds?

Literally every one of those things don't matter for just for fun leagues which is why the USBC better watch its back. Bowling the sport is dying much faster than bowling the game. Its very possible to enjoy bowling without competition being the only point believe it or not. I dare guess the vast majority of people are in that category.

giddyupddp · « **Reply #98 on:** January 05, 2018, 11:44:14 AM »

Could not agree more than with the last 2 posts,
Posted by: HackJandy & JessN16

JessN16 · « **Reply #99 on:** January 06, 2018, 02:55:20 AM »

Quote from: HackJandy on January 05, 2018, 11:19:59 AM

>Who is going to check lane beds to be level? The BPAA proprietors, I doubt it.
>Who is going to check gutter depths, pin specs, ball specs? The manufactures they have in interest in making illegal equipment.
>Who is going to maintain a national average database?
>Run national, state, and local tournaments?
>Bond league prize money? Punish league officers embezzling funds?

Literally every one of those things don't matter for just for fun leagues which is why the USBC better watch its back. Bowling the sport is dying much faster than bowling the game. Its very possible to enjoy bowling without competition being the only point believe it or not. I dare guess the vast majority of people are in that category.

I'll throw in that a couple of houses I've bowled in recently have made it mandatory that the house be appointed fiduciary over the league. You can vote a different secretary if you want, but they will be secretary in name only. The house keeps the money and sets the rules (i.e., if you don't pay for two weeks, you sit). They got just as tired of being shorted at year's end as bowlers did having to pay for people who didn't show up.

Tournaments -- I bowled in one last year that had 35 people show up. The last time I bowled in it, which was about 20 years prior, they had 650+ entries. The tournament director actually had to void and redo the prize payout agreement this time because they didn't have enough entrants show up to get the lineage discount.

Average database -- You copy the USGA system. Have your league secretary input it, or input it yourself. The technology to maintain a database like that is child's play.

Ball specs -- I literally don't care. All I care about is the ball falls under max weight standards (16 pounds), has no moving parts and isn't made of a metallic component. If you want to load it up with 6 pounds of side weight, have at it. You still have to throw it well to score. The best thing that could happen on the equipment side right now is to throw out 90 percent of the rules and let people innovate.

Jess

lilpossum1 · « **Reply #100 on:** January 06, 2018, 08:43:41 AM »

Quote from: JessN16 on January 06, 2018, 02:55:20 AM

Quote from: HackJandy on January 05, 2018, 11:19:59 AM
>Who is going to check lane beds to be level? The BPAA proprietors, I doubt it.
>Who is going to check gutter depths, pin specs, ball specs? The manufactures they have in interest in making illegal equipment.
>Who is going to maintain a national average database?
>Run national, state, and local tournaments?
>Bond league prize money? Punish league officers embezzling funds?

Literally every one of those things don't matter for just for fun leagues which is why the USBC better watch its back. Bowling the sport is dying much faster than bowling the game. Its very possible to enjoy bowling without competition being the only point believe it or not. I dare guess the vast majority of people are in that category.

I'll throw in that a couple of houses I've bowled in recently have made it mandatory that the house be appointed fiduciary over the league. You can vote a different secretary if you want, but they will be secretary in name only. The house keeps the money and sets the rules (i.e., if you don't pay for two weeks, you sit). They got just as tired of being shorted at year's end as bowlers did having to pay for people who didn't show up.

Tournaments -- I bowled in one last year that had 35 people show up. The last time I bowled in it, which was about 20 years prior, they had 650+ entries. The tournament director actually had to void and redo the prize payout agreement this time because they didn't have enough entrants show up to get the lineage discount.

Average database -- You copy the USGA system. Have your league secretary input it, or input it yourself. The technology to maintain a database like that is child's play.

Ball specs -- I literally don't care. All I care about is the ball falls under max weight standards (16 pounds), has no moving parts and isn't made of a metallic component. If you want to load it up with 6 pounds of side weight, have at it. You still have to throw it well to score. The best thing that could happen on the equipment side right now is to throw out 90 percent of the rules and let people innovate.

Jess

I have to agree somewhat with getting rid of 90% of the rules. create too strong of a ball, and it will puke all of the energy as soon as it hits the lane. what have you gained, then? We already see it happening with the current book monsters. there have been no huge advancements in ball technology in how many years? Despite what the companies say.

HackJandy · « **Reply #101 on:** January 06, 2018, 10:30:04 AM »

USBC got on my bad side when I realized water is not one of their approved cleaner chemical list and that following the label on Simple Green original (perfectly legal at full strength) and diluting it with water even in my own house to clean my own stuff is against their ass nine rules (you will buy $2 an oz ball cleaner and smile, don't think so). Banning 1/4 of my arsenal is the cherry on the crap sundae and just means no USBC tournaments or competitive leagues for me basically ever looking like or more likely for 3 to 5 years or so when they disappear. Honestly fine either way but not giving them a dime as long as dictator for life Chad is in charge period. Will use time to hone game until reason returns to the sport. Plenty of unsanctioned just for fun leagues in area and league priced open bowling sure doesn't care about the diff of my balls. Got to be good for the sport putting up barriers so even people who love bowling avoid the competitive side. That will really grow their membership banning people's arsenal just in the belief that their aging shrinking membership who could probably now use the diff more than ever will think things are more fair. Whatever, good not to mix up money and bowling anyway. Easy way to dislike the game. Will never let the sport ruin the game for me.

JessN16 · « **Reply #102 on:** January 10, 2018, 05:04:25 AM »

Quote from: HackJandy on January 06, 2018, 10:30:04 AM

USBC got on my bad side when I realized water is not one of their approved cleaner chemical list and that following the label on Simple Green original (perfectly legal at full strength) and diluting it with water even in my own house to clean my own stuff is against their ass nine rules (you will buy $2 an oz ball cleaner and smile, don't think so). Banning 1/4 of my arsenal is the cherry on the crap sundae and just means no USBC tournaments or competitive leagues for me basically ever looking like or more likely for 3 to 5 years or so when they disappear. Honestly fine either way but not giving them a dime as long as dictator for life Chad is in charge period. Will use time to hone game until reason returns to the sport. Plenty of unsanctioned just for fun leagues in area and league priced open bowling sure doesn't care about the diff of my balls. Got to be good for the sport putting up barriers so even people who love bowling avoid the competitive side. That will really grow their membership banning people's arsenal just in the belief that their aging shrinking membership who could probably now use the diff more than ever will think things are more fair. Whatever, good not to mix up money and bowling anyway. Easy way to dislike the game. Will never let the sport ruin the game for me.

I've been out of loop for so long I hadn't even paid attention to these cleaner rules until I started poking around this forum again. To be blunt, I'll clean my ball at home with whatever works and doesn't make the thing run afoul of a durometer. For me that means dishwasher and a little Dawn. I never used anything else besides rubbing alcohol, anyway, especially not while I was actually at a venue, so that's not a big deal, but when you're talking about being at home over an offseason (which is when I do extraction) and you try to tell me WATER is a no-no, I'm just going to laugh at you. That's nothing more than economic protectionism for sponsor companies, sorry.

On the tournament side, the biggest tournaments we have running in our area right now -- and they have a weekly component and then a "season-end" component to them as well -- are all unsanctioned no-taps or 40-framers. This happened pretty quickly about 5-6 years ago, where people stopped doing traditional-format tournaments and went to that. I personally don't find either format to be that much fun, but that's what the public wants. And neither of them have a thing to do with the USBC other than they use a book average for flighting purposes. You get competent, trustworthy people running a fun tournament that moves quickly and suddenly there's no need for the other stuff.

Jess

ignitebowling · « **Reply #103 on:** January 10, 2018, 07:30:22 AM »

Quote from: HackJandy on January 06, 2018, 10:30:04 AM

USBC got on my bad side when I realized water is not one of their approved cleaner chemical list and that following the label on Simple Green original (perfectly legal at full strength) and diluting it with water even in my own house to clean my own stuff is against their ass nine rules (you will buy $2 an oz ball cleaner and smile, don't think so). Banning 1/4 of my arsenal is the cherry on the crap sundae and just means no USBC tournaments or competitive leagues for me basically ever looking like or more likely for 3 to 5 years or so when they disappear. Honestly fine either way but not giving them a dime as long as dictator for life Chad is in charge period. Will use time to hone game until reason returns to the sport. Plenty of unsanctioned just for fun leagues in area and league priced open bowling sure doesn't care about the diff of my balls. Got to be good for the sport putting up barriers so even people who love bowling avoid the competitive side. That will really grow their membership banning people's arsenal just in the belief that their aging shrinking membership who could probably now use the diff more than ever will think things are more fair. Whatever, good not to mix up money and bowling anyway. Easy way to dislike the game. Will never let the sport ruin the game for me.

Did you actually contact USBC directly on water because it isn't listed on approved or on non-approved, or listed as only for before or after use list. One product listed as approved for use during is a water based oil remover by LMB industries. I would assume water is not an issue and they didn't think it would have to be listed.

http://usbcongress.http.internapcdn.net/usbcongress/bowl/equipandspecs/pdfs/Approved_cleaner_polish.pdf

todvan · « **Reply #104 on:** January 10, 2018, 09:35:51 AM »

Quote from: Pinbuster on December 24, 2017, 12:41:45 PM

I shudder to think what is going to happen as the baby boomers start dropping out in mass. You'll be hard pressed to find a bowling center except in larger metro areas and then it will be about cosmic bowling.

This. Things will be changing big time in the next 10 years.

spmcgivern · « **Reply #105 on:** January 10, 2018, 09:36:16 AM »

Quote from: ignitebowling on January 10, 2018, 07:30:22 AM

Quote from: HackJandy on January 06, 2018, 10:30:04 AM
USBC got on my bad side when I realized water is not one of their approved cleaner chemical list and that following the label on Simple Green original (perfectly legal at full strength) and diluting it with water even in my own house to clean my own stuff is against their ass nine rules (you will buy $2 an oz ball cleaner and smile, don't think so). Banning 1/4 of my arsenal is the cherry on the crap sundae and just means no USBC tournaments or competitive leagues for me basically ever looking like or more likely for 3 to 5 years or so when they disappear. Honestly fine either way but not giving them a dime as long as dictator for life Chad is in charge period. Will use time to hone game until reason returns to the sport. Plenty of unsanctioned just for fun leagues in area and league priced open bowling sure doesn't care about the diff of my balls. Got to be good for the sport putting up barriers so even people who love bowling avoid the competitive side. That will really grow their membership banning people's arsenal just in the belief that their aging shrinking membership who could probably now use the diff more than ever will think things are more fair. Whatever, good not to mix up money and bowling anyway. Easy way to dislike the game. Will never let the sport ruin the game for me.

Did you actually contact USBC directly on water because it isn't listed on approved or on non-approved, or listed as only for before or after use list. One product listed as approved for use during is a water based oil remover by LMB industries. I would assume water is not an issue and they didn't think it would have to be listed.

http://usbcongress.http.internapcdn.net/usbcongress/bowl/equipandspecs/pdfs/Approved_cleaner_polish.pdf

The comment about water came about during discussions of Simple Green. Simple Green is listed as an approved cleaner, however, it was assumed Simple Green could not be diluted (must use the official commercial product without alteration). Then it was discussed how water is not listed as an approved chemical.

I am sure water is allowed. However, the way the rules are written and supposedly inferred to be followed is confusing.

Author Topic: A thought on the proposed ball specs adjustment by USBC (Read 18472 times)

Luke Rosdahl

A thought on the proposed ball specs adjustment by USBC

leftybowler70

Re: A thought on the proposed ball specs adjustment by USBC

HackJandy

Re: A thought on the proposed ball specs adjustment by USBC

Metal_rules

Re: A thought on the proposed ball specs adjustment by USBC

BowlingforSoup

Re: A thought on the proposed ball specs adjustment by USBC

Pinbuster

Re: A thought on the proposed ball specs adjustment by USBC

JessN16

Re: A thought on the proposed ball specs adjustment by USBC

HackJandy

Re: A thought on the proposed ball specs adjustment by USBC

giddyupddp

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JessN16

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lilpossum1

Re: A thought on the proposed ball specs adjustment by USBC

HackJandy

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JessN16

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ignitebowling

Re: A thought on the proposed ball specs adjustment by USBC

todvan

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spmcgivern

Re: A thought on the proposed ball specs adjustment by USBC