Post by: MichiganBowling on February 03, 2004, 12:05:49 AM
So with that said, please post replies with questions you would like answered from the ABC head honchos. Also post some of your ideas as to how ABC could help the sport. I really feel a lot of people are very quick to blame others but are unwilling to look for a real answer themselves. So please keep that in mind when being critical of others.
I have learned a lot from so many of you that have posted in this forum, and we've all had some really great discussions thus far. So now it is time to give our ideas a chance. I will also post a few of my ideas in here as well to get some discussion going.
Thanks guys and gals!
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Brian
MichiganBowling.com
http://www.MichiganBowling.com
Famous Last Words of a Pot Bowler--"Ok, but this is my last game!"
Post by: MichiganBowling on February 03, 2004, 03:18:31 PM
I would like to propose to ABC that we have 2 different levels of sanction, for both bowling balls and for lane conditions. We would have a certain group of specs that "competition" bowling balls would have to fit, and a certain group of specs that "recreation" bowling balls would have to fit. The same would go for oil patterns.
It was quite coincidental when I read that in the PBA forum, because I had already had the idea to do the same with leagues and tournaments. Currently there seems to be no structure whatsoever for our leagues. Most men's leagues in my area will have average varying from 120 to 240. Why should the 120 guys be bowling against the 240 guys? The 220 and up guys complain about the cappers, and the cappers complain that the good bowlers win everything. So why not separate them?
In other words, let's say a bowling center has 5 men's leagues. They should have one that is the most competetive, maybe scratch. We would classify that league as a C1 (Competetive 1). There might be 2 others that are pretty competetive as well, but not scratch. Maybe one uses an 80% of 220 handicap and has averages of 170-220 with a max cap of 40 pins per person. The other is competetive, but for entry level competetive bowlers. The averages might vary from 120-180 and handicap would be 80% of 200.
Then there might be 2 other men's leagues that are stricty beer drinking fun leagues. Averages would vary from 100-210 and would use a handicap method of 100% of 220. There would be no jackpots, but maybe a mystery game and 50/50. Music? sure, why not. Anybody could bowl in these leagues, but they better leave their attitudes at home, cuz it's all about fun.
What do you guys thing about this structuring idea? Obviousy it's a very rough plan, but the details could be worked out as things progress.
Thanks
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Brian
MichiganBowling.com
http://www.MichiganBowling.com
Famous Last Words of a Pot Bowler--"Ok, but this is my last game!"
Post by: TheBowlingKid25 on February 03, 2004, 03:25:21 PM
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15 years and still going strong! 15 years old that is!
DA DA DAAAAAA!! UP UP AND AWAY! TO THE BAT CAVE ROBIN!The names Warrior Princess, Xena..Warrior Princess
Post by: MichiganBowling on February 03, 2004, 03:32:20 PM
So is it fair to say that something like the minor leagues in baseball should be applied to bowling, but on a non-professional level?
If your team dominates a league for a year or two, they should both want to and be forced to move up to a more competetive league, right?
So in order to make them want to move up, perhaps we have more jackpots and such in the higher leagues. Sure it's fun to win, but if there's no money and no real feeling of accomplishment, then we're going to want to push ourselves to the next level.
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Brian
MichiganBowling.com
http://www.MichiganBowling.com
Famous Last Words of a Pot Bowler--"Ok, but this is my last game!"
Post by: TheBowlingKid25 on February 03, 2004, 03:36:43 PM
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15 years and still going strong! 15 years old that is!
DA DA DAAAAAA!! UP UP AND AWAY! TO THE BAT CAVE ROBIN!The names Warrior Princess, Xena..Warrior Princess
Post by: Old Coach on February 03, 2004, 03:37:21 PM
Post by: 9andaWiggle on February 03, 2004, 03:43:20 PM
quote:
If your team dominates a league for a year or two, they should both want to and be forced to move up to a more competetive league, right?
This may work in larger markets, but don't forget the smaller communities! I don't have figures, but I would venture to say well over 1/2 of all bowling centers are in smaller areas, with 16 lanes or less. Therefore, you will often have the same people bowling 2 or 3 nights a week between the two mens leagues and the mixed league. Just something to keep in mind...
Personally, I like the idea of competition level equipment that is weaker than some of the strike-in-a-box on the market. At least tighten it up for tourneys.
One thing I would like answered; since the technology of the balls has improved to hit the pins harder, then why hasn't the technology of the pins been improved to resist the stronger equipment being thrown at them? If this technology exists, why hasn't it been required to be used?
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9~
Post by: TheBowlingKid25 on February 03, 2004, 03:45:35 PM
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15 years and still going strong! 15 years old that is!
DA DA DAAAAAA!! UP UP AND AWAY! TO THE BAT CAVE ROBIN!The names Warrior Princess, Xena..Warrior Princess
Post by: Soonermike on February 03, 2004, 03:48:53 PM
Without rambling on, I know that in softball and golf the technology has changed the game over the years. It has in bowling too and I am not sure that the game can be restored to or even resemble the way it used to be.
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SoonerMike
Post by: MichiganBowling on February 03, 2004, 03:55:39 PM
One thing I am trying to promote here is the idea that the past is the past, and the future is what we make it. You are right that most bowlers nowadays just want to go fling the ball, drink, then go home. But most of those bowlers notice that something isn't quite right either. And I think there are enough of us who know that bowling can be better than it is right now, that we owe it to ourselves and we owe it to the youth to make bowling a real sport again. The beautiful thing about change is that anybody can do it. When people begin to see the end result of our efforts, they will help us too!
9andawiggle,
Very good point. I suppose I was talking about the larger markets all along. The fact is, I don't hear about the problems in the smaller markets like I do in the larger markets, so they do not need as much help. All they need to do is upgrade their center accordingly, and things just seem to fall into place. We do still need to educate those bowlers as well though. It's all about options. We shouldn't force the bowlers to bowl on tough shots anymore than we should force them to bowl on easy shots all the time (which we are doing now). Educate them and give them the option. Let them make a real choice and show them the light at the end of the tunnel.
Again, the idea of limiting the bowling balls more for the "competition" sanctioned leagues would be the equivalent of only allowing major league baseball players to use wooden bats. It puts everybody on an even playing field, and the true talent will rise to the top. For me, if I'm not one of those at the top, I'm going to work damn hard to get there! This competetive attitude is totally lacking in our sport today.
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Brian
MichiganBowling.com
http://www.MichiganBowling.com
Famous Last Words of a Pot Bowler--"Ok, but this is my last game!"
Post by: drillbit on February 03, 2004, 04:18:32 PM
One way to make the pins tougher to knock over is to eliminate the double-voided construction, and go back to single-voids, thus lowering the pins' center of gravity, and making them tougher to knock over. Bill Taylor has been promoting this idea for years, and it definitely would decrease pin-carry, especially on less-than-perfect hits.
drillbit
Edited on 2/3/2004 5:17 PM
Post by: Old Coach on February 03, 2004, 04:26:55 PM
Post by: Phillip Marlowe on February 03, 2004, 06:06:21 PM
2. Why does the ABC allow so many variations in lane conditioning?
3. Why are particle balls legal?
4. Why don't we have a single sanctioning body for the sport?
5. Could sport bowling become the standard?
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"I don't mind if you don't like my manners. I don't like them myself. They're pretty bad. I grieve over them on long winter evenings."
Post by: charlest on February 03, 2004, 09:42:14 PM
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"Just because you can do something does not mean you should do it."
"No good deed goes unpunished."
Post by: sdbowler on February 03, 2004, 10:31:22 PM
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trying to have fun while I bowl
Post by: Tex on February 03, 2004, 11:29:18 PM
1) Does the ABC believe that all local associations currently follow and inforce the certification and lane inspection rules?
2) If not, would they consider placing rules in place that would penalize any association or individual that violates those rules? What types of penalties would they consider appropriate?
3) If they believe all are following the letter of the rules, what rock are they living under? Kind of a joke question, but if they really answer yes to number 1, might be appropriate.
4) What would they think about setting a ratio standard for normal certification of lanes? and is it time to increase the minimum amount of oil required?
5) Do they believe Sport bowling is working? What do they believe can be done to make it easier for centers to support this type of league?
Enough for now. On the levels, we have that now to some degree with Sport bowling and at least in Dallas there is not one single sport league. The only center that had one, lost it this year. In our center, one of the 16 lane centers mentioned earlier, we could not support breaking the only Men's league up and the women's and mixed would not be interested in anything more than what we have now. It just would not fit. We run one league per night and work to make sure we at least get 14 teams in our Men's league. Not all leagues are full house, in fact only two nights are. We are close enough to Dallas to make the options pretty easy and more centers being built. In our area, we have two new centers, two under construction and one other in the planning that I know of. So, bowling is not doing bad, but we keep losing leagues. Off subject, but so many of these current bowlers have no interest in tough anything.
Post by: SrKegler on February 04, 2004, 02:38:02 AM
Here’s what I would like to see.
First of all ABC needs to put out the requirement that all sanctioned tournaments be conducted on one of the PBA patterns.
2nd, each house has to have at least one sanctioned league that uses a PBA pattern.
This would serve several purposes.
First, it would give the competitive bowlers an option. Bowl the PBA leagues and establish an average compatible with the tournament conditions they’re going to be competing in, or allow them to stay in the “recreational leagues†and not be able to compete in tournaments with their inflated averages.
Eventually, peer pressure would force Joe Bowler to either join the PBA leagues or be unable to brag about his scores and averages.
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~~~SrK - Have balls, will travel
Old bowlers never die, we just don't score as often
Post by: MichiganBowling on February 04, 2004, 03:11:07 AM
One thing to know about me is that I am quite persistent. I've read a lot of good ideas on this forum and in this thread, and I believe that change is both possible and necessary. If traditional methods don't work, and if trying to get the people at the top to help us won't work, then I guess we'll just have to be a little more creative!
Keep the good ideas and questions coming guys!
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Brian
MichiganBowling.com
http://www.MichiganBowling.com
Famous Last Words of a Pot Bowler--"Ok, but this is my last game!"
Post by: 9andaWiggle on February 04, 2004, 12:07:52 PM
quote:
2nd, each house has to have at least one sanctioned league that uses a PBA pattern.
This would serve several purposes.
First, it would give the competitive bowlers an option. Bowl the PBA leagues and establish an average compatible with the tournament conditions they’re going to be competing in, or allow them to stay in the “recreational leagues†and not be able to compete in tournaments with their inflated averages.
Eventually, peer pressure would force Joe Bowler to either join the PBA leagues or be unable to brag about his scores and averages.
I like the idea of being able to walk into any center and be guaranteed at least one tough league, but ultimately, the bowlers in the area will make that decision. If nobody shows up to bowl the tough league, then what is the proprietor to do then? You can't twist people's arms and make them bowl in whatever league you want them in. I think this is by far the largest challenge to creating change - getting enough bowlers that actually WANT the game to change for the better (and are willing to sacrifice their ego's in the process).
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9~
Post by: MichiganBowling on February 04, 2004, 03:18:48 PM
My business has been offering bowling promotion for a few years now, and would like to take that to the next level through this summer and into next season. Add that to offering some changes in the structure of our sport, and I think we can really enhance the sport quite quickly. The promotional end of bowling has been lacking for years, and it's time that somebody steps up to take on the challenge. The same goes for the integrity issue. In my opinion, one should progress along with the other.
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Brian
MichiganBowling.com
http://www.MichiganBowling.com
Famous Last Words of a Pot Bowler--"Ok, but this is my last game!"
Post by: Leftyhi-trak on February 04, 2004, 03:35:06 PM
1) The PBA and ABC need to be under one association. One united front.
2) All sanctioned leagues must use a PBA approved pattern. These patterns should be labelled by scoring level which should be determined by offical heads under the newly formed duo of associations (See idea 1). 1 being easy 5 being hard
A) This gives a greater respect for the pro and less variation around the country also helping to promote a better bowler will rise to the top on tougher conditions.
3) Fine proprietors who knowingly promote a non sanctioned pattern. The responsibility should be regulated through local association officials.
4) Regulation of bowling balls and lane surfaces should be looked at in greater detail with revamping such as static weight restrictions and also including pin weight and void location.
5) Work harder on promoting youth bowling. We have great coached fundamental systems for most every sport but bowling. (Football- pee wee, Baseball- Mickey Mantle, babe Ruth, Etc. etc.) Rarely walking in houses with a youth program do i see more than one or two coaches working with kids. Compare that to the level of coaching in any other sport, it is sad.
6) Study the migration of bowlers to the ABC tournament and also the Eliminators or High Rollers and why are they such a big hit?
To discuss some statements which I have heard.
1) oil-less lanes - You will not get bowling manufacturers to stop production over-night of current issue equipment and you would be killing some lane surfaces till they changed. I don't believe the cost of these would be at all cheap currently with no success stories ever even making the light of day. (Bill Hall's work for a long time)
2)Lane surfaces - they also should have to be monitored to acceptance level. No only level but also surface quality.
A)The newly formed association should lean on lane manufacturers to make a very durable product and also to lessen costs to proprietors if they can. A lot of small house have a tough time with cost.
Post by: MichiganBowling on February 04, 2004, 05:08:41 PM
I remember someone saying a while ago that they were "willing to lose some bowlers now for integrity down the road". Sure that person was willing, because they have nothing to lose. Please remember the fine line that exists between scaring centers away and getting them to work with these new ideas.
When I think of the average 40-lane bowling center, let's say they have 30 bowling leagues, and only about 2 or 3 are really competetive. So by forcing the other 27 leagues to put out a PBA pattern would only force them all to quit. How is that a good thing?
Until somebody can make a valid point as to why we should "force" leagues to put out difficult patterns, I simply cannot jump on that bandwagon. There are other ways of bringing back the integrity, but it's not as simple as just making the shot harder for everybody. That would simply destroy the sport altogether and centers that didn't fight it would go out of business.
Am I being close minded here?
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Brian
MichiganBowling.com
http://www.MichiganBowling.com
Famous Last Words of a Pot Bowler--"Ok, but this is my last game!"
Post by: SrKegler on February 06, 2004, 09:03:36 PM
The idea, is to establish some integrity back into the game of bowling. To me, that means having sometime of yardstick so we can realistically compare ourselves to the pros. With todays THS, there just isn’t anyway possible.
At first, I thought the sports league might catch on. There was 3 flaws in the program the way ABC set it up.
1st, they had the additional cost to be sanctioned.
2d is someone only bowled a sport league, their average was adjusted to reflect the tougher shot. Most of us feel that was unfair, kind of a slap in the face to be penalized by having to give the people that stayed on the house shot more handicap.
3d, the pros don’t bowl on a sport shot, nothing is really gained by comparing averages by the top amateurs and the pros.
Whatever changes are decided upon to restore integrity boils down to one thing. LOWER SCORES. The ball manufacturers are not going to allow any type legislation that hurts their business. Bowling alleys are not going to allow anything that affects their lineage.
The one place ABC can make an impact is in the tournaments. There is a ton of large tournaments around, Hoinke, TAC, etc. People are going to bowl them regardless of the conditions. If we have the requirement that they be shot on a PBA pattern it doesn’t affect the local houses at all. The people is does affect is the ones who attend the tournaments.
If they want to stay in their wall shot leagues, fine. Their handicap will be based upon that average. How well will they compare when matched up to someone that has an average based on a PBA pattern league.
Lets think in “baby stepsâ€. The first year ABC has the requirement that all tournaments be shot on a PBA pattern.
2d year the people that shot some of the big money tournaments are going to want to have some experience on it, they tell their house they need a PBA league to practice on. House may only have 1 league but at least it is a start.
3rd year, Joe Bowler has to make a decision. Stay on his wall shot, maintain that high average and be uncompetitive at the tournaments or switch over to the other leagues.
There has to be an incentive for people to want to shoot the tougher leagues. This is the only way I can think of to apply pressure on the houses and the bowlers to want the tougher conditions.
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~~~SrK - Have balls, will travel
Old bowlers never die, we just don't score as often
Post by: SrKegler on February 06, 2004, 10:13:53 PM
When I take a look at the PBA tournaments, averages seem to be around 225 area. With scores being that low, now the league bowler around the 200 mark feels like he may have a chance to compete on the scratch side, especially if he has had the opportunity to shoot a similar shot all year in league.
On the handicap side, the sandbagger just lost all his advantage. Very few of them will sandbag down to the 130-140 average to maintain his edge. Too much peer pressure, especially if he stays on his wall shot.
Believe me, I’ve talked to everyone, bowlers and owners. Currently neither group has any reason to want tougher conditions. ABC is really caught in the middle now, they have a very fine line to walk between the bowlers and the houses. Other than bonding and award scores, the typical bowler can’t see any justification in sanctioning. Probably wouldn’t take too much for a league to vote not to sanction.
Just trying to find a reason for the bowlers and the houses to WANT tougher conditions.
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~~~SrK - Have balls, will travel
Old bowlers never die, we just don't score as often
Post by: MichiganBowling on February 06, 2004, 10:21:07 PM
In a true capitalistic "free market", being all you can be takes precedence over everything. In other words, why the hell do we care what the ball manufacturers and what ABC will let us do? In order to do what's best for the sport of bowling, steps A, B, C...Z need to happen, and probably over a period of time. It would be nice to soften the blow for the ball manufacturers if possible, but if not, so be it. Furthermore, why in God's name would a bowling center tell you "no, you may NOT start a league in my bowling center!" If you are interested in starting a bowling league with limits on bowling balls, and limits on the lane condition, then who is ABC...who are the ball manufacturers, and who is the bowling center that is going to say "NO!"
While I agree if we force them to make big changes right now, they have every right to say no and probably will. Example--if we say they must go back to single voided pins by next season, limit their house shot to a 4-1 ratio, and limit the equipment that may be used on the lanes, then of course they're going to laugh at you and unsanction all of their leagues and continue running business as usual.
Again, I think forcing tournaments to put out tougher shots is just not the answer. I know of a lot of little local tournaments here in Michigan that get good turnouts. They're handicap tournaments that get upwards of 120 people per event. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. We need to realize that competetive style bowling is NOT for everyone. For those who love the easy shots and will refuse to bowl on tougher conditions, so be it. Ignorance is bilss. That is their choice.
Thank you all so very much for replying to this thread. I am going to put our ideas together and post them in another thread, and I will ask once again for your feedback. We have tossed ideas around, and quite a few still think it's not a reality. Perhaps when you see the whole plan and see how ABC answers to my questions and statements, then we'll be able to look to a brighter future. Please realize that the ABC, ball manufacturers and other organizations are NOT holding all of the cards here. We ultimately outnumber them, and if enough of us can form a plan based on a vision of what could happen down the road, then we will find a way to get it done.
The only real obstacles are the ones that don't exist (they're in our heads).
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Brian
MichiganBowling.com
http://www.MichiganBowling.com
Famous Last Words of a Pot Bowler--"Ok, but this is my last game!"
Post by: MichiganBowling on February 06, 2004, 10:35:59 PM
And one last time, I am not asking centers to "change", nor am I asking ball manufacturers to "change". The plan is to get them both to "add" to what they already have. The restructuring that I called for in my earlier posts meant that we basically offer a new type of bowling. We could almost look at it as a new sport altogether. The sport would have limited specs on equipment and limited specs for oil patterns. We would call these types of leagues and tournaments "competetive" leagues and tournaments, respectively.
Perhaps we would call other leagues competetive as well...leagues that had easy shots but lots of money and good bowlers, so perhaps we would call the new type of bowling C1 leagues (Competetive 1), meaning the highest form of competetive bowling where the true talents rise to the top.
Many bowlers say they do not want tougher conditions, because they do not understand why they should want tougher conditions. They know that they do not enjoy bowling as much as they once did, but they do not know why. It is our goal to teach them why. As it stands, the sport is a joke. We all know it, but most do not. Some people believe they are legitimate 220 average bowlers. Most of us here know better!
So let's say we start as few as .01% of all bowlers. So what? From there we build, and from there we educate. We are lucky to have golf as a model to study closely. We can take the good and leave the bad, and make the proper adjustments along the way. That's how I learned to bowl in the first place!
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Brian
MichiganBowling.com
http://www.MichiganBowling.com
Famous Last Words of a Pot Bowler--"Ok, but this is my last game!"