Author Topic: Rule Violation Question (Sanding a Ball) (Read 1713 times)

Goof1073 · « **on:** February 20, 2009, 01:31:30 AM »

We had a bowler last night sand a ball part way through game 3. This was brought to my attention (league officer) and I had to discuss it with the local association rep. The rule is really clear and the bowler in question definately violated Rule 18. The main problem that we are having is the poorly written note within the rule:

"Note: If it is shown the bowler had prior knowledge his/her actions were in violation of Rule 18, the game(s) in which the violation occures is (are) subject to forfeiture."

It's such a catch22...how does one prove / disprove prior knowledge of the rule? Why would USBC give a bowler this kind of out? Has anyone had to deal with this in the past? To the rest of the league officers it was pretty clear that the bowler didn't know the rule, but the bowler on the other team was REALLY animated about him breaking the rule to beat him.

Thoughts?

nd300 · « **Reply #1 on:** February 20, 2009, 09:46:23 AM »

1. Discuss this with the offending bowler and make sure he/she knows that this is a rules violation and cannot be done.
2. Discuss this with the team captain and let him/her know that the actions of the team player could/should have caused a forfeiture of game three.
3. Discuss with the offended player that he/she is correct by the book,but in this case, doing nothing other than warning the other bowler is the right thing. To me,unless a quarterly or "third" championship is on the line, use it as a teaching tool to get people to learn the rules. Also it lets bowlers know that you,as a league officer,are doing your job in enforcing the rules.
Did anyone ask the bowler why he was sanding the ball?? If his answer is "Yes, I'm trying to get the ball to hook more because of carrydown",then you do have someone who knows what he was doing and should have had the game forfeited.
If the answer is "to get belt marks off the ball",then you have a bowler who didn't know what he was doing.
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Chris
JTTDB---Just Throw The Damn Ball
Don't "think"---that ball isn't in your bag yet..........

notsohotshot · « **Reply #2 on:** February 20, 2009, 10:14:03 AM »

sOMEONE(CAPTAIN)from the other team should have told him that he could not sand the ball during the set.He either takes the ball out of play or his team forfiets the game and he risks further action by the board of directors.His choice.Now he does know the rule and if no one informed him during the aforementioned game or his team captain or league officer they must have not really have been that concerned.

Spider Ball Bowler · « **Reply #3 on:** February 20, 2009, 10:26:16 AM »

I would have just told him that's not allowed, but not penalized him or anything, unless he got an attitude. A lot of people don't know the rules, and heck it's only a league.

If it were a tournament, yea then I would have called him out, but in league, no biggie.
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Robadat · « **Reply #4 on:** February 20, 2009, 10:50:13 AM »

The rule, from bowl.com

quote:
18. Bowling Ball - Altering Surface

Altering the surface of a bowling ball by the use of abrasives while bowling in USBC competition is prohibited.

All bowling balls so altered must be removed from the competition. (See Chapter 7, Section 2, for additional information.)

NOTE: If it is shown the bowler had prior knowledge his/her actions were in violation of Rule 18, the game(s) in which the violation occurred is (are) subject to forfeiture. In addition, the bowler is subject to dismissal from the league and suspension of membership.

Competition is defined as the remainder of the current game and remaining game(s) in the series being bowled.

The use of approved cleaning agents such as isopropyl (rubbing) alcohol and polishing machines is permissible.

Seems very clear.

First time offense - You inform bowler that what he did was a rule violation and the ball can no longer be used during that session. Ball should be removed from play for the night and can be used next session, IF he completes the sanding before session starts. (Uniform surface Rule)

Any Second and subsequent occurances - Since Bowler now has been informed of the rule by league officers, if he does the same sanding mid session again, his games can be forfeit and he can be removed from the league if the league officers want to do so.
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Goof1073 · « **Reply #5 on:** February 20, 2009, 11:26:46 AM »

I think when the dust settles that the bowler, heck maybe the league, will be given a warning and we'll move on with our lives.

The main issue we had last night was the bowler that caught the issue...he didn't say anything to a league officer until the night was done. He saw the ball get sanded part way through the 3rd game and didn't say anything until after he realized that the surface alteration caused the other bowler to score well enough to beat him.

Honestly I feel like a baby-sitter here, but I'm sure that we'll slap someone wrist and move along.

J_w73 · « **Reply #6 on:** February 20, 2009, 11:44:15 AM »

If the other team saw him sand the ball why didn't they let him know that it was against the rules? If he then used it after they informed him of the rule then his games would be subject to forfeit. If no one informed him and he didn't know the rule then I don't think anything can be done.
I would call USBC and they should be able to give you an answer.

I do believe it is a dumb "Note" or loop hole. It gives someone the option of just saying they didn't know.. and then if you think they did then you have to prove it.
It would suck to be the person it happened to but I think they should just make the rule the rule with no exceptions. If you sand a ball during competition and use it you get a 0 for that delivery. That way if someone did it and didn't know they wouldn't lose the whole game. Not sure exactly how but maybe only make the last delivery subject to a 0 when the complaint is made. That way the rule is the rule and it also prevents an un-ethical team from seeing a guy sand his ball the 2nd frame and letting him use it the whole game and then coming forward and saying every frame is a zero. I think if someone sees someone breaking the rules it is their responsibility to bring it to someone's attention right away...
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16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205,PBA Xperience ave180

Edited on 2/20/2009 12:47 PM

Edited on 2/20/2009 12:48 PM

charlest · « **Reply #7 on:** February 20, 2009, 12:40:30 PM »

quote:
I think when the dust settles that the bowler, heck maybe the league, will be given a warning and we'll move on with our lives.

The main issue we had last night was the bowler that caught the issue...he didn't say anything to a league officer until the night was done. He saw the ball get sanded part way through the 3rd game and didn't say anything until after he realized that the surface alteration caused the other bowler to score well enough to beat him.

Honestly I feel like a baby-sitter here, but I'm sure that we'll slap someone wrist and move along.

That is the real problem with 99% of the rule violations within leagues: adults acting like children.

I thought there was something in the rules about bringing violations to the notice of league officers IMMEDIATELY??

Until the violator is warned, there is no violation. After that point in time, the ball is illegal. Maybe that's your "out" in this case. He wasn't told of the ball being illegal until after the 3rd game was over. The smart alec who waited maybe should have no recourse in this case. The score stands.

?
(I am not sure. Maybe this is just a possibility.)

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"None are so blind as those who will not see."

clovismaul · « **Reply #8 on:** February 20, 2009, 01:04:19 PM »

We had almost the same problem with a bowler. But the players team captain knew the rule and failed to say anything, it took another team captain from a different pair of lanes to say something do to the fact that the other team had no idea you could not do that. So the league Pres. decided to have the bowler take 0 from where the bowler committed the act which was the 3rd frame in the last game...
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Who Shoots 650 without shooting a duece?

J_w73 · « **Reply #9 on:** February 20, 2009, 01:21:39 PM »

quote:
We had almost the same problem with a bowler. But the players team captain knew the rule and failed to say anything, it took another team captain from a different pair of lanes to say something do to the fact that the other team had no idea you could not do that. So the league Pres. decided to have the bowler take 0 from where the bowler committed the act which was the 3rd frame in the last game...
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Who Shoots 650 without shooting a duece?

I don't know if that was the appropriate action. Even if the rule sucks I believe in following what the rule book says.. It would have to either be the games forfeited or nothing as the rule is written now. I don't know if you can pin anything on the team captain knowing it was illegal.. you should be able to but I am not sure if there are any rules governing it.
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16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205,PBA Xperience ave180

triggerman · « **Reply #10 on:** February 20, 2009, 01:46:44 PM »

I had to call out a team mate last year at nationals, clearly sanding his ball between frames with a scotch brite pad, i told him had he been caught the ball would be taken out of paly and he might have to forefit
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Goof1073 · « **Reply #11 on:** February 20, 2009, 05:48:12 PM »

When I asked the bowler if he knew about the rule he seemed genuinely ignorant of the rule. I think a quick meeting between the two team captains, etc. will clear the whole thing up and the offending bowler will get a warning.

Now the bowler that spotted the issue really should've said something when he originally spotted the rule violation but he didn't as up until that point his opposition wasn't scoring very well. He let the matter fester so to speak and made a big scene about it after the fact. Very immature thing to have done...

Author Topic: Rule Violation Question (Sanding a Ball) (Read 1713 times)

Goof1073

Rule Violation Question (Sanding a Ball)

nd300

Re: Rule Violation Question (Sanding a Ball)

notsohotshot

Re: Rule Violation Question (Sanding a Ball)

Spider Ball Bowler

Re: Rule Violation Question (Sanding a Ball)

Robadat

Re: Rule Violation Question (Sanding a Ball)

Goof1073

Re: Rule Violation Question (Sanding a Ball)

J_w73

Re: Rule Violation Question (Sanding a Ball)

charlest

Re: Rule Violation Question (Sanding a Ball)

clovismaul

Re: Rule Violation Question (Sanding a Ball)

J_w73

Re: Rule Violation Question (Sanding a Ball)

triggerman

Re: Rule Violation Question (Sanding a Ball)

Goof1073

Re: Rule Violation Question (Sanding a Ball)