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Author Topic: Ban the good Bowler!! Part 3, final update  (Read 5695 times)

shotmaker

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Ban the good Bowler!! Part 3, final update
« on: November 04, 2004, 01:03:51 PM »
*****Final update is at post 20 of the thread*******

Added additional e-mails to bottm of the original post.

Just thought I would share something with all of you for your reading pleasure and feedback. This year I joined a mixed league with my wife and another couple and a nice retired lady. We did really well the first quarter and won 1st place in a 20 team league. The second quarter is a week old and we won 7 of 7. Here is an e-mail that was sent out to the entire league:

quote:
I think there is an unfair advantage by some teams on the league.
Anyone with an average over 200 (the handicap average) is receiving that many extra pins per game and 3 times that many for series. In the past this has only been a few pins over the handicap average and not that big of a deal. With the lowering of the handicap average from 210 to 200 this year it is even more of a problem.
 
Now I know that people said that handicaps were to high last year and that is why it was dropped to 200. This does not make any sense and the only thing it accomplishes is to allow a larger advantage for people who average over the handicap average.

If someone is averaging 230 and shoots 20 pins UNDER average he still shoots 210 with his handicap of zero. Now in order for me to beat him while averaging 192 I would have to shoot 12 pins OVER average 204+7=211. This is an unfair advantage. The 230 average bowler can bowl 30 pins UNDER average and still not effect his final handicap score. If he bowls average he and his team start with a 30 pin advantage. So you say he will not always bowl average and I agree but if he is absent he will receive a score of 220 giving his team a 20 pin advantage every game. I would love to know I have a guaranteed 20 extra pins per game.
Now, I know people do not want higher handicaps so I propose a negative handicap system. Where if you average above the handicap average you will receive negative pins of handicap. So if a person averages 230, it would be
200-230= -30*80%= -24 handicap.

Now if that person bowls average 230 plus his negative handicap = 206 a much more attainable score for someone with a lower average to beat. Notice that this still will give the higher average bowler a slight advantage but not a huge one. - I know that this used to be just a friendly league but I believe it is becoming more of a competitive league. Teams will not like one team continually winning due to this advantage. - There are other solutions but I think using a negative handicap system makes it fair for everyone.


This is how a series of e-mails started, i'll post the rest of them if I see interest in the subject.

A little backround on me. I joined this league to have a good time, drink some beers, socialize, and spend a night out with my wife. I was tired of ultra competitive leagues. I have been banned from leagues before or forced to leave leagues because handicap crusaders would persuade the league to vote in 100% negative handicaps over 210.

The next few e-mails get better.......

Updated Strating Here.

Here is the reply I sent out to the original e-mail:

 
quote:
******, If this was so important perhaps it would
have been proper to sign the letter so we would know
who is complaining.

My team and I really don't understand the point of
sending the whining of one person to everyone in an
effort to cause friction in the league and animosity
towards our team. We created our team over the summer
and bowled the summer league ending up in 7th out of
14 teams. We came into this league already bowling
well which may be the reason for our quick start.

To say that a team is successful because of the
bowling of 1 player is wrong. A team has 5 players and
each contributes to a win. Here we have an unknown
person indirectly complaining about me to everyone and
the fact is we have won most of our games by more than
the 20 pins the person feels I have an advantage with.
Successful teams are teams that pick up their spares
and teams where different players have big games at
different times. I'm sure it helps my team from time
to time when I coach them a bit while they bowl,
should I be muzzled because this is unfair too?

Now, I'd like to clear the air about my average. Here
is last year's full year average at Niles Brunswick
Zone for me direct from the ABC website:

League Average: 210
League Name: Grennan Heights Men
League Type: Winter-All Men
Number of Games Bowled: 93
Center Name: BZ Niles
Association Number: 14148
Association Name: CHICAGO METROPOLITAN BA

As you can see I normally would be under some of our
leagues bowlers. This year I happen to be having a
better year, perhaps my best year. Is it right to give
me such a hard time for having a great year so far?

Discussing a change in the rules is fine. The problem
with it is that these type of rule changes cannot be
made during the middle of a season per ABC rules. In
effect this just stirs the pot in the league.

We joined this league to have a good time on Friday
nights and to make new friends. We came in with an
attitude focused on having fun and not focused on
"winning". If anything, the anonymous writer of the
letter is the one taking things too seriously and
being too competitive. Perhaps you should let everyone
know who wrote the letter, or not send it to everyone
in an effort to isolate our team and direct unwanted
animosity towards it.

Regards,
******

 


 


..And this was the next e-mail to go through the chain from the unhappy camper:

 
quote:
To all,
 
First off my letter was in no way to offend anyone or aimed at anyone person just the average. I think ***** is an excellent bowler and from my limited contact with him a nice friendly guy.
 
In response to ******'s letter I would just like to say it was me who wrote the original letter. It was not meant to offend anyone person or team. It is not whinning but just voicing a concern. Maybe there are some people that are not aware of the advanage of having an average over the handicap averae. Would it have been better just to sit back and not inquire what could be done about what I feel is unfair. How else am I supposed to find out without contacting a league officer and then in turn how is that league officer supposed to find out if anyone else has the same concern as me. Maybe there are other people that have the same concern as me but did not want to be called a whinner.
 
Other  leagues that are more competive have provisions set up for extremly high average bowlers. Like raising the handicap average or even voting to not allow that person or team to join the league. I am in no way suggesting that anyone with a very high average not be allowed on the league. Far from it. I believe better bowlers make the rest of us better. I fell we just need to even out the playing field for us bowlers that are not as good.
 
I did not write ******* telling her she had to make a change or threating to quit or anything like that. I just wanted to know if other people felt the same way I do and offer other ways to make the league fair. I am not a student of the ABC rules but doing a quick search on the internet for the rules I could not find anything about not changing the handicap. Maybe there is and if there is ***** could you please let me know where to find it and then I will drop the whole subject and happily compete and have fun against you and everyone else by the current rules. I will also drop the subject if I am alone in this thinking.
 
I agree with ***** about a winning team where it is a team that wins and they all share in winning or losing, but I would still rather be on the team with a 30 pin advantage.
 
*** ******
 
P.S.  Since ***** was willing post some of his past bowling information I thought that all of his information from the ABC website should be posted.
 
 


At this point all my league information and award scores for the last 4 years was pasted and posted from the ABC website. Almost everyone in the league knows that I have the high series in the house for this year and they also know about some of my championships in another bowling organization from 10+ years ago.

Immidiately after reading this e-mail another came into my mailbox:

 
quote:
Please everyone do not get pissed or mad at ******.
I honestly believe he joined the league to have a good time. This problem is not ******'s fault. He is playing by the rules as they are set up right now. It is not ******* that is the problem or the issue, I feel it is the handicap average that is the problem. If other people are in agreement maybe we can vote to change things to be as fair as possible to as many people as possible.
 
Thanks again
***
 


Tonight should be interesting. This league had been a great way to end the week. Some bowling, socializing, having some drinks and blowing off some of the weeks stress. I have a feeling there will be a different attitude towards us tonight.

I agree with the suggestion made about adding total team average and taking 80 or 90 % of the total team average from a number, probably 1000. My personal opinion is that this is really sour grapes about a guy that can't win in the pots. (Pots are usually won with 270+ with cap)

Edited on 11/5/2004 11:30 AM

Edited on 11/6/2004 5:58 AM

 

JOE FALCO

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Re: Ban the good Bowler!! Part 3, final update
« Reply #31 on: November 06, 2004, 11:42:45 AM »
Lets stick to the contents of the letter .. lets further say that everything else is hearsay! The letter writer makes a point about high average bowlers where the implemented HANDICAP method appears to have a flaw. This is his WHOLE POINT. IS HE RIGHT OR IS HE WRONG? Should that league be thinking about a modification to their methodology or is what they have in place CORRECT! That's what the letter writer is saying .. can we get opinions ON THAT! Maybe next year the highest average is 170 .. does it matter .. what is right for a HANDICAP LEAGUE?
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shotmaker

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Re: Ban the good Bowler!! Part 3, final update
« Reply #32 on: November 06, 2004, 11:46:39 AM »
I'm shotmaker's wife and want to add for all of you who are wondering why he's in a handicap league - it's because of me.  We have been together for 8 years now, and he has only ever bowled men's scratch and handicap leagues.  I have never been able to participate in bowling with my own husband until just this past summer.  He joined this league so he could bowl with ME and we could have fun together bowling other than just practicing together.  I have a 133 average and really stink at bowling in general.  So what options are there for us to have a fun, social evening out together?  I had actually never bowled in a league before at ALL, so "league night" was a new experience for me, and one I have enjoyed a whole lot more than I thought I would.  

Since we both work very stressful jobs, and don't have much in the way of free time or social circles, we really, really were enjoying our one night together with our (new) friends and having an evening without our cell phones and without the stresses of our "regular" life.  When we joined this particular league, we had NO IDEA what the handicap average was set at (didn't care), we still have no idea what the prize fund is (they've never put it out), and we didn't know there were big pots.  We acutally bowled a 14 week league in the summer that didn't really have anything in the way of pots, and the prize fund there was a net win of $60 for the entire team for the SEASON! (first place team won $460, last place $400).  So to say we were there to bowl for $15 each would be ridiculous.  So those few weeks proved to be so much fun our team mates who were not part of the Friday night league (but knew about it) asked if we were interested in continuing with them into the regular season.  So we said yes.  And now our stress-free night has turned into people glaring and whispering which has taken a whole lot of the fun out of it.  

I know how much time and money and effort shotmaker puts into his game to bowl as well as he does.  I admire him for it.  I find it very distasteful and a big turnoff when people out there want to knock you down for being good at what you do.  

Fortunately, many, many people came up to us last night and said they disagreed completely with this one guy's point of view.  Many said they were glad shotmaker is in the league because it makes them better bowlers too.  And when we bowl against these other teams, rather than being upset or angry, they LOVE to watch him bowl well!  They're enthusiastic, they're high-fiving him all over the place and ask him to help them out with a couple of pointers (which he ALWAYS does, very graciously, and then is happy for THEM when his advice works for them).  The guys that are complaining are the ones who sit silently in their seats and shoot daggers from their eyes everytime he throws a strike.  

I can promise you that shotmaker has no big ego and doesn't join handicap leagues to be a big fish in a small pond.  The money isn't THAT good for heaven's sake, and with two PBA titles, what does he need to prove to a bunch of amateur bowlers he doesn't even know?  That makes no sense whatsoever.  It makes me very unhappy that I can't enjoy bowling with my husband just because he happens to be good and it pisses people off.   I can also say that until last night, he was bowling very well without really trying very hard.  Having watched him bowl in COUNTLESS PBA tournaments, I know the difference between true concentration, focus and seriousness and just getting out there and throwing the ball while you're playing cards on the side, drinking beer, trying to help your wife (!!), and meeting and enjoying a whole group of new people.

I say let them change whatever they want.  It was just the spirit in which these people's complaints were made that makes us unhappy.

SrKegler

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Re: Ban the good Bowler!! Part 3, final update
« Reply #33 on: November 06, 2004, 12:05:25 PM »
Yes the league handicap is flawed.  It was also flawed last year when they were doing 80% of 210.  Bowler A averaged 215 on the league.  In effect giving his team 5 bonus pins a game.

This year they went 80% of 200 because Bowler A complained of the high handicaps.  Their change did nothing for the league.  Each team, with bowlers under 200 average lost 8 pins in handicap.  They only increased the advantage for teams with bowlers over 200 averages.  I fell if they are stupid enough to vote something like that in, they get what they deserve.

Can they change it now?  NO, not without 100% approval from each team captain.

What Joe fails to understand is the same conditions pervailed last year and apparently the league didn't have any problem with it.

The only time it came into play is this year when a different team has the advantage.  Now its a problem.
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Spending the kids inheritance one tournament at a time.
Have Balls - Will Travel


RIP Thongprincess/Sawbones

LadyW

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Re: Ban the good Bowler!! Part 3, final update
« Reply #34 on: November 06, 2004, 12:17:28 PM »
I've bowled in many handicap leagues over the years.

We've always had a handful of bowlers averaging close to the 220 range.

When using a match play format we set the handicap above the highest entering average and use 80%.  

If there's no individual points to be earned then we use the simple method of subtracting one team's average from the other and using 80% of the difference.  This method takes all averages into account no matter how high.

Based upon my personal experience whenever 80% handicap is used no matter what the method the higher averaging teams finish in the top year after year.  80% handicap will always favor the higher average bowlers.

The formula used by your league was determined and agreed upon at their league meeting.  Like it or not the whiner should just accept it and move on.  There is nothing to be gained by complaining.  He should just table it for next year's meeting.

The pots on the other hand are run independently and are therefore not governed by ABC rules.  The handicap calculation could be changed to 80% of 220 for pot purposes only. IMHO that would help to level the playing field and be a good compromise. Just a thought.  


--------------------
LadyW....

Edited on 11/6/2004 1:28 PM

JOE FALCO

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Re: Ban the good Bowler!! Part 3, final update
« Reply #35 on: November 06, 2004, 12:18:36 PM »
SRK .. please point out the info that you relay in the letter written .. I can't find it. Thanks!
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SrKegler

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Re: Ban the good Bowler!! Part 3, final update
« Reply #36 on: November 06, 2004, 12:27:26 PM »
Quote
I think there is an unfair advantage by some teams on the league.
Anyone with an average over 200 (the handicap average) is receiving that many extra pins per game and 3 times that many for series. In the past this has only been a few pins over the handicap average and not that big of a deal. With the lowering of the handicap average from 210 to 200 this year it is even more of a problem.



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~~~SrK - Have balls, will travel

Spending the kids inheritance one tournament at a time.
Have Balls - Will Travel


RIP Thongprincess/Sawbones

JOE FALCO

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Re: Ban the good Bowler!! Part 3, final update
« Reply #37 on: November 06, 2004, 02:40:07 PM »
When you have a CUTOFF of 200 and a bowler has an average between 200 and 300 .. his handicap is THE SAME! If a bowler has a 220 average and he bowls games of 200 all three games .. he's 60 in total BELOW HIS AVERAGE without losing a PIN for the TEAM per game or total wood.

My whole discussion talks to HANDICAP and fairness in a league.

I've explained my point and talked only to a letter that came from someone I don't know and delivered here by still another person I don't know. I talk to the words that were written.

TEAM HANDICAPS should be calculated by SUBTRACTING the accumulated average of OPPOSING TEAMS from each other WITH THE RESULTING NUMBER being the HANDICAP for the LOWER AVERAGE team.

Thinking that I will start REPEATING my thoughts .. I leave you with YOUR THOUGHTS!

Thanks!

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Hit them light and watch them fight
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ksucat

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Re: Ban the good Bowler!! Part 3, final update
« Reply #38 on: November 08, 2004, 01:22:55 PM »
Sounds like Shotmaker showed a few "big fish" that their oversized egos were undeserved.  This upset them and they can't handle it.  Every league I've seen has a few bowlers who will always complain about something.  They are unhappy people in general and I simply try to ignore this small group and focus my attention on the many others that are enjoyable to be with.  

Shotmaker, you will likely upset a few members of this league just by your very existance.  Move on.  You are bowling in this league because of the love and friendship of your spouse.  Tell the league that you truly do not care about what handicap system is used and that if any changes are made, you will honor the rules.  These jealous individuals are likely only 10% of the entire league.  Put up with them and enjoy the rest.

If I didn't know better, I would have sworn that a friend of mine here posted it.  Two guys are averaging well over 220 bowling with their wives who are hoping to reach 140 by year end.  The handicap was changed before they joined the league and this team didn't join even knowing what this was.  This league just worked out to be the right location and a night that all could participate.  

<rant mode on>  Shotmaker will likely get tired of the complaining and not bowl this league next year.  This may cause his wife to quit her first league ever and not look for another league to join.  Why should a few complainers force them out?  These complainers are likely the first ones to tell the propietor that the shot sucks because they can't score.  I still say that we make scoring tougher and hopefully force these complainers to get mad enough to quit.  Everybody seems so worried that bowlers will quit in droves if we make them work for their scores.  Let these wimps quit.  Maybe we can build a group of bowling enthusiasts that will enjoy working hard for their success and not complain when poor execution leads to losses. <rant mode off>


Steven

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Re: Ban the good Bowler!! Part 3, final update
« Reply #39 on: November 08, 2004, 01:56:50 PM »
Wow. After reading this thread, it's really simple to sum things up; shotmaker isn't the problem -- this league simply has a screwed up handicap system.

(1) If you're going to set up a basic handicap system of 80% or 90% of 2XX, you better ensure that "2XX" is higher than any possible individual average in the league. Otherwise, you're going to have people problems down the road.

(2) If the league can't do simple math and get things right, then do what was suggested before -- go 80% or 90% of the difference between the two teams. You can never go wrong with this format.

shotmaker, initiate a league vote to change the format to (2). You'll have fun with your wife, and the other bowlers won't have anything to whine about.







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UCIbowl

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Re: Ban the good Bowler!! Part 3, final update
« Reply #40 on: November 08, 2004, 01:59:02 PM »
all i have to say


if you arent as good as me.... why should you get my money and why should i be forced to give it to you?

my suggestions to you all - get better and you wont have to complain
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shotmaker

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Re: Ban the good Bowler!! Part 3, final update
« Reply #41 on: November 08, 2004, 04:38:08 PM »
Shotmaker's wife here again....

Just wanting to point out (being new to leagues, I hadn't thought to mention this), but I didn't have an established average until I bowled a few games the first few weeks.  But shotmaker's average, as we've noted already, was 210 last year in the same house.  He came in with a 210 average.  Mr. Complainer's average from last year was 212 in that house.  And the other complainer's average was 214 last year in that house.  Aren't the rules supposed to be made according to the established averages before the season starts?  Now in the first few weeks, due to shotmaker's practicing a lot, and a new oil pattern this year, he starts averaging 232, and the guys who averaged 212/214 last year are now down to 192, the league is supposed to change to accomodate them?  I would agree that if they all came in with such a disparity between their averages (shotmaker's 232 to their 192), it would be an issue, but they CAME INTO the season with averages HIGHER than shotmaker's!!!  Gotta love it.  Again, I say who cares, go ahead and change it, but it's the SPIRIT in which these complaints are made that are bothersome.  And it's also very dishonest of the complainers to complain about our team having a "30 pin advantage", when it's really the pots that they're concerned about.  When we suggested directly to them that we could switch to a team average, they shot right back, "yeah, but what about the pots?".  They're not concerned with their team winning or losing, they're concerned that this year they're not sweeping the pots like they did last year, and they're mad.  As SrKegler noted, they didn't count on shotmaker being in the league this year nor did they count on a new oil machine putting out a different pattern when they lobbied for that change in handicap average last year (which, if they had kept up their average from last year, and shotmaker hadn't been around, would have benefitted them GREATLY - now that it's not benefitting them anymore, they don't like it).  That's our big problem.

But for those of you who did understand the point, thank you very much.  I AM enjoying league a lot, and look forward to it every week.  Our team is wonderful, and 95% of the teams we play have been great people.  We've made lots of friends, and had lots of laughs and enjoyed lots of good, friendly competition.  

It's too bad that there always has to be a couple of spoiled apples to try and ruin the whole barrel!!

bass

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Re: Ban the good Bowler!! Part 3, final update
« Reply #42 on: November 09, 2004, 05:10:55 AM »
I've known shotmaker and his wife for 6-7 years now and for him to try and take advantage of this league is laughable. If he wants to bowl with his wife and friends there is NOTHING wrong with that it should be commended rather than be accused of cheating.

He's a very good player and he can still sack up with the BIG BOYS  when he feels that urge.
Maybe some quality time with his family and friends drives him more now.

Let the man have his fun!!!!!!!
free agency it is until i get a better offer.   LMAO

Wylie

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Re: Ban the good Bowler!! Part 3, final update
« Reply #43 on: November 09, 2004, 06:35:40 AM »
I say Bravo to SHOTMAKER for getting to have that night out having fun with his wife, I know how hard they are to come by.  Just because he has a high handicap (not even the highest at the beginning of the season) should not mean he can't bowl in a handicapped league with his wife.  I say bravo for taking the time to help his wife and the people around him try to improve.  There is always going to be someone who will try to bring everyone down just to make themselves look better.  You get it everywhere you go.  To those people, I say get a life and grow up.  I think you could pretty much make the hadicap whatever you wanted for the league in question and SHOTMAKER could care less.  I think he is there bowling for the right reasons.  I hope you are still able to bowl and have fun Shotmaker & Mrs. Shotmaker.
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