Post by: trash heap on June 27, 2008, 05:21:18 AM
I always bowl in Local and State Tournaments. This year went to those tournaments with a 213 average from previous year (Reactive Equipment on THS). This year's average is 200. Difference of 13 pins a game. I can honestly state that I am a better bowler this year than previous year. I am more consistent, better spare shooter, and definitely more focused.
So....am I bagger???
Post by: KDawg77 on June 27, 2008, 01:22:33 PM
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Post by: Jorge300 on June 27, 2008, 01:24:39 PM
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Jorge300
Post by: 1MechEng on June 27, 2008, 01:36:00 PM
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Post by: trash heap on June 27, 2008, 01:52:28 PM
This year in league has been a humbling experience in reference to score. I would make good shots (what I thought were good based from previous year) and leave pins up there while my opponents are carrying everything in the world.
I do not have tournament average. If I was to have a tournament average from the past years I would guess it would be less than my current 200 average. I have played on some pretty tough conditions.
This year at states was my best series in singles I ever had (691 scratch).
Edited on 6/27/2008 1:57 PM
Post by: Nails on June 27, 2008, 02:31:02 PM
quote:
If you used urethane equipment for sole purpose of lowering your average to take advantage of added handicap in tournaments, then yes. If you did it in order to improve your overall game, and you don't use the additional handicap for an advantage, then no.
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Jorge300
The exact point I was trying to make in the other post. If you're doing something to lower your average for the purpose of getting more pins in a handicap environment, you're a bagger.
If you go through a process similar to what you describe and your average drops 20 pins and you enter in a ton of handicap events and clean up, you're not technically a bagger, but it might not be completely moral. I guess the right thing to do is explain the situation to each tournament director. If they choose to re rate you based on your previous average or tournament average, you should accept it.
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Telling it like it is.
Post by: Steven on June 27, 2008, 02:36:44 PM
quote:
I guess the right thing to do is explain the situation to each tournament director. If they choose to re rate you based on your previous average or tournament average, you should accept it.
The above is the correct answer for anyone not bowling up their full scoring potential in league. If you use Urethane in league but use resin in tournaments, you have the moral/ethical responsibility to disclose.
I think a tournament director would lose it in this pants if anyone actually came forward with such honesty.
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Post by: gsback on June 27, 2008, 02:46:26 PM
If it were me....the question would be asked how I felt if I found out the person who won did what you did and he beat me out!!
The only other thing I would suggest is your rationale of equipment for said tourneys. If you go to them throwing the same urethane and shoot lights out....that can happen any night and you shot with the same equipment.
If you come in touting all the new stuff, resin, particle and pearls and all....then I would think you may want to rethink your approach and stay away from tournaments.
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Post by: Gazoo on June 27, 2008, 03:06:00 PM
Post by: trash heap on June 27, 2008, 03:16:51 PM
I am going to bowl with Urethane again this year in league. Who knows my average might be over 210...That would be GREAT!!!
I usually wouldn't even bother with something like this but this is the first year my average dropped considerably (13 pins).
Can you just put a higher average in the tournament entry form and give no explanation?
Post by: rackattack on June 27, 2008, 03:33:41 PM
You bowl scratch.
You are not a bagger.
What gear you use is up to you.
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It's all about the X
Post by: Gazoo on June 28, 2008, 07:39:14 AM
Just use your 213(high book) which is your real average and there shouldn't be any problems.
Post by: LuckyLefty on June 28, 2008, 08:25:43 AM
REgards,
Luckylefty
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Open the door...see what's possible...and just walk right on through...that's how easy success feels..
Post by: 302efi on June 29, 2008, 07:03:48 PM
If not, then yes thats bagging.
Since your avg is 13 pins lower with the Urethane, why would you use reactive gear in the tourneys now ?...To gain an advantage ?..hmm...
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quote:
I will head to my local pro shop. Right after I buy it online.
Sport Bowling is a F**king joke
Post by: rackattack on June 29, 2008, 08:49:41 PM
I don't think so.
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It's all about the X
Post by: 302efi on June 29, 2008, 09:04:03 PM
If he stays with the Urethane gear, no problem....but when hes uses the good gear with the Urethane avg, then theres a problem !
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quote:
I will head to my local pro shop. Right after I buy it online.
Sport Bowling is a F**king joke
Post by: EagleHunter on June 29, 2008, 09:34:44 PM
To the average player, the BWB is a hook monster plain and simple, if drilled normally. Drilled this way, on most conditions, it would be pretty tough to score as normal. It would be a good tournament ball, but on a THS would be pretty worthless, unless conditions were perfect.
What if one bowled the entire league season with his tournament arsenal, one ball per night, regardless of how it worked? Knowing that this arsenal would be used in any tournaments bowled in, would this be bagging?
Bagging, according to the rules, is simply a matter of intent. If you intend to improve your game and try to the best of your ability, you are not bagging regardless of score OR the potential effect on one's handicap.
Does this allow for loopholes? ABSOLUTELY. But sadly true intent usually cannot be determined to the point of bringing charges of bagging and getting them to stick.
Post by: 302efi on June 29, 2008, 09:43:57 PM
quote:
So what if
EagleHunter ~ We can "what if " thsi until the world blows up.
What if someone particed spare shooting in there league on both balls ??...Can you use that 60avg to enter a touney ?...but I was really tring to better my spare game !
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quote:
I will head to my local pro shop. Right after I buy it online.
Sport Bowling is a F**king joke
Post by: The SuperHitMan on June 29, 2008, 10:07:22 PM
EagleHunter ~ We can "what if " thsi until the world blows up.
What if someone particed spare shooting in there league on both balls ??...Can you use that 60avg to enter a touney ?...but I was really tring to better my spare game !
LOL Good Point!
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If THS is so easy why dont you have a 220+ average
Win or Go Home...Shwosh-The SuperHitMan
Post by: EagleHunter on June 29, 2008, 10:14:21 PM
If you want to make a point, then be prepared to defend it as I attempted to do.
Otherwise...what if I pretended to not own any equipment at all and bowled the whole season with a poorly fitted house ball, then showed up at tournaments with a 1st class arsenal?
Again, unless you can prove intent you have nothing.
Post by: nextbowler on June 29, 2008, 10:28:29 PM
bagger.
Post by: tenpin477 on June 29, 2008, 10:40:27 PM
Post by: 302efi on June 29, 2008, 11:24:23 PM
The second he uses the good & better gear, then hes using the lower entering to his advantage.
Although, whats the problem with him going in and reporting his avg as 213 instead of 200, is that within the rules ?
It would be pretty bad if he wins something by only a couple sticks entering with the 200 avg when it should have been higher given the gear he was using in league to establish the lower avg.
Tell you what, I'm gonna Email USBC and see what they have to say on this and I'll point them to this topic. I'll update when they return my Email.
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quote:
I will head to my local pro shop. Right after I buy it online.
Sport Bowling is a F**king joke
Edited on 6/29/2008 11:31 PM
Post by: nextbowler on June 30, 2008, 02:11:14 AM
he is bagging.
Post by: stormerjip on June 30, 2008, 02:48:24 AM
thats like say the toxic came out you used it for all season to establish average, but then wait the psycho came out which theoretically is a better more advanced better carrying ball someone could come up to you and say you cant use that cause thats not the ball you used in league, or better yet any time you buy a ball during the summer you cant use it because you didnt use it when you were bowling for your average.
to me thats like saying well I bowled say a recreational bowler starts bowling averages 150 for half season but gets injured and while he is injured is replaced on the team. since hes replaced he figures he wants to get better and try to make some money in tournaments with his friend so he gets a coach and adds equipment and through practice is a solid 185 bowler consistently but has not established that are you going to ask him to turn in a higher average because the 150 is below his skill set and new equipment. I dont see where is says he has practiced with the new equipment so all he knows is that last yr he averaged 213 we have no idea if that is still his true average so therefore is not fair to him without knowing.
just like me my last few seasons of averages
2003-04 Rally'S/Randy's State Farm Scratch Winter 215 81
2004-05 Friday Mixed Winter 197 81
2005-06 Wednesday Night Men Winter 188 93
2006-07 Nu Gas Mixed Winter 173 99
2007-08 Sunday Adult/Youth Winter 204 78
so by your logic since i have went downhill i should still report that i average 215 because for one year with certain ball I averaged that but since then with different "better" equipment that I havent done that that I still average 215
ok remind me never to bowl with you guys in tournament
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show no mercy, kill the wounded, eat the dead
Post by: 302efi on June 30, 2008, 07:12:19 AM
I think you can see the difference between Urethane/plastic and reactive.
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quote:
I will head to my local pro shop. Right after I buy it online.
Sport Bowling is a F**king joke
Post by: 9andaWiggle on June 30, 2008, 09:22:22 AM
Also, who's to say he wouldn't wind up using the urethane or plastic for half or better of the tournament due to the conditions present? How many horror stories have been told of bowling on fried lanes in a tourney due to bowling late shifts, center staff incompetence (allowing open bowling prior to tourney and not re-oiling) or equipment problems?
I say take what you want to bowl with and don't worry about it. You'll probably have to use the 213 anyway due to the 10-pin rule (if memory serves me correctly). Intent to bag is not there, IMO. After all, if you're bowling a handicap tourney, the 30 pins per set will likely not make a difference to you when facing the real sandbaggers (meaning, you still won't cash high enough for anyone to care). If the tourney is scratch, all is moot anyway.
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Post by: n00dlejester on June 30, 2008, 09:38:53 AM
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Obviously, you aren't a golfer.
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