Author Topic: An idea that I wish all HDCP leagues would adapt.. (lengthy) (Read 5120 times)

lil League Coach · « **on:** May 14, 2010, 01:52:20 PM »

I know the bowlers with lower averages will argue with me but its just a suggestion that I wish some leagues/ league officers would take into consideration. I have been thinking about this for quite sometime now. All the leagues in my area are Handicap some 90% some 100% (fun fun). Here is my complaint.

I dont think its fair that a bowler should be allowed to shoot games over 300. I bowled against guys getting 60-70 pins per game and shooting 250-260 scratch games giving them well over 300. There are bowlers in the league getting 0 pins HDCP (myself included) and I dont think its fair that if I achieve perfection I have a chance to get beat.(I realize most are thinking then join a scratch league--- there is nothing under an hour drive) I think that a perfect score should be 300 regardless of what your handicap is. Look at other sports......

--In football most of the time (WR, RBS, TE, QBs) score the majority of TDs well lets say there is a fumble and a lineman scores a TD.. it still counts as 6pts there is no Bonus pts awarded.

--In hockey if a goalie scores a goal it only counts as 1 goal nothing extra. I can go on and on.. I just wanted to air that out and see what the ballreviews community thinks about it.

I try bringing this up before the start of all of our leagues and I get looked at like I have 10 heads.
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TJ TROUT
PBA EAST REGIONAL MEMBER
Vise Grip Staff "choice of champions"
thomasjtrout@yahoo.com
Keglers Pro Shop - Owner (www.keglersproshop.com)

Edited on 5/14/2010 9:52 PM

Edited on 5/14/2010 9:53 PM

Edited on 5/15/2010 8:59 AM

Russell · « **Reply #1 on:** May 14, 2010, 10:12:31 PM »

Sorry I disagree...they are getting 60-70 pins for a reason. If they are averageing 150 and shoot 260, they probably won't shoot that more than once in a season.

They handicap bowler gets punished for series if you cap how much they can shoot.

Ex:

150 bowler with 63 pins shoots 260 = 323

While this sucks if you're the scratch bowler, if you cap the amount he/she can shoot at 300 you are taking away 23 pins they earned on series.

So now the scratch bowler can lose by 22 pins, but win series because the of the "spotback". This will give even more bowlers in the 150s to 180s a reason to quit. We can't afford to keep screwing the people that are the majority in favor of a few that want to win everytime they shoe up.
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Little known fact: In Russian "Hope" and "Change" translate to "Tax" and "Spend"

Juggernaut · « **Reply #2 on:** May 15, 2010, 12:06:38 AM »

Why is it that the higher average bowler is EXPECTED to just "suck it up" and deal with it? Why can't the lower average guys just be expected to STFU and go out and LEARN TO BOWL?

First, they get to use equipment that "levels the playing field" and lets, as Mo Pinel calls them "Percy Pussknucklers", dump the ball at the foul line and still get ball reactions better Earl Anthony ever did. Then, they also have to handicap them 100% from 230.

Now they have to accept the fact that, even though they might reach ABSOLUTE PERFECTION, they could STILL lose.

It isn't about fear, nor is it about feeling like I should win every game or series. It is about giving people at least SOME incentive to improve instead of just show up, shoot 640 scratch, add in 100 pins or more in handicap, then listen to them brag about "how they beat the crap" out of someone who actually DID shoot over 700.

You don't have to, as Russell puts it "Screw the majority", but you don't have to give them the keys to the kingdom either. I remember being a handicap bowler, and yea getting the pins was nice, but knowing I was only getting a small percentage (70% of 200) gave me incentive to get better and get those pins myself.
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averagebowler · « **Reply #3 on:** May 15, 2010, 01:06:15 AM »

Whats the point of this post anyways. I've been hearing high average bowlers complaining about low bowlers beating them. i average in the 190's. i still get hdcp., i'm just saying week in week out you guys shoot in the 700's and you guys get the pot every week. then once a low bowler finally bowled thier BEHIND off you guys complain. you guys should be glad a low bowler bowled great for once in thier life. the league i bowl in its 90% of 205.

all of you guys high average bowler should get together and put your own scratch league and not join the hdcp league. the only reason you guys join the hdcp league is to take advantage of the low bowlers out of thier money. so stop crying about it. geesh!!!!!

Juggernaut · « **Reply #4 on:** May 15, 2010, 01:29:47 AM »

quote:
all of you guys high average bowler should get together and put your own scratch league and not join the hdcp league.

I live in a small rural area, and there just aren't enough scratch caliber bowlers around here, so this is not an option. If it were, you can bet I would.

quote:
the only reason you guys join the hdcp league is to take advantage of the low bowlers out of thier money.

I don't even get in brackets, or high pots. I am that rare bird who bowls purely for the pleasure and the challenge, not for side pots. The only money I take from the "low bowlers" is the point money the team gets for winning games.

The only reason I join hdcp leagues is they are the only leagues available to me without driving for over an hour.
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dukeblue87 · « **Reply #5 on:** May 15, 2010, 02:14:56 AM »

In our league we have a policy that 300's can't lose for pots. It someone has 308 and I have 300 scratch we push.

This doesn't exactly work for league points, but most of the complaints I hear is when someone shoots 300 and doesn't even cash in the hdcp pots.

rexb300 · « **Reply #6 on:** May 15, 2010, 07:15:15 AM »

well are you talking about a singles league or do handicap on each bowler
turn out be the same
I just got done in 5 man league had 100% from 1100 so all teams got some
handicap my team avg was from 1040 to 1070
we finish about middle of league we were highest team average so usbc
saids top team will finish 1st not all time if we got on a set of lanes
that were bad would lose points cause bowled under 1100 lot of times.
but my point is on team average handicap don't matter if a low average
bowler shoots 300 its a team sport

heres a good one we just had team meeting last week for another league
I bowl and is 90% from 1050 team average 5 bowlers.
and I have had this happen before and I am tring to help lower average teams
I have 2nd high average on league at 223 but or team average is about 950
so we get about 90 pins a game handicap
I here might get a new team next season with a average of 1075 or better.
so I make a motion to raise handicap to 1100 so don't have a scratch team
getting a 25 or 30 pin head start each game
here questions I get being I have a high average the lower team average
bowlers say what you tring to do get more handicap you tring to pull
something I say what are you talking about
I am tring to help you oh no you tring to pull something because thats the
way we done its for years
I say yes but with a big average team comes in they will shoot 1050 and
higher more often
they didn't want more handicap I said do what you want I guess just keep my
mouth shut go bowl somewhere else.
it's pass but everybody things I pull something over there eyes

then I start a summer league its single league
after we start bowling there is a bowler averageis 230+ bowling
I ask whats handicap so I know about points its kind of a fun league
its 90% from 210 I said should it be 220 in this day and age
thats the way its been I get or a pair that oiler did something to
I shoot 506 against a guy shoots 511 I missed a 10 pin
so I will get 37 pins a game next week and I could shoot over 300
see whats happens
sorry long its raining I will follow up next week
later RB

TMack · « **Reply #7 on:** May 15, 2010, 08:28:26 AM »

If you penalize the lower average bowlers, you will lose your leagues. We have already seen a huge decline in league bowling and changing the handicap system would only make it worse. Atleast the small guy has a chance in most handicapped leagues and thats why they come back. Just my .02 cents....

Aloarjr810 · « **Reply #8 on:** May 15, 2010, 09:20:15 AM »

How about a negative handicap system.

Say anyone below 200 bowls scratch.
Those over 200 get a negative handicap. Say 50% of the difference of their ave. and 200.

example:
A 240 ave gets a -20 (240-200=40 40X50%=20)

PLM · « **Reply #9 on:** May 15, 2010, 09:21:49 AM »

I bowled in a league with 80% handicap and my team was 40 pins better than anyone else, so we won 3 years in a row. I kind of started to lose interest in it and ultimately suggested that we go with a 90% handicap. Since that change, 4 different teams have won the league. It does put more teams in contention and does generate interest that is frankly necessary if leagues are to survive, so I do agree with TMack in the previous post.

Russell · « **Reply #10 on:** May 15, 2010, 12:44:10 PM »

quote:
Why is it that the higher average bowler is EXPECTED to just "suck it up" and deal with it? Why can't the lower average guys just be expected to STFU and go out and LEARN TO BOWL?

As someone who has gone from bowling regionals and averaging 230+ to being a 3 game a week league hack for life because of career and kids, I think the mentality of "learn to bowl" is pretty ignorant. We have handicap for a reason, it's to level the playing field and give everyone a chance.

The real gripe with your post is the fact that people get pins and beat you. Let's call it for what it is.

How many times have you seen someone lose with a 300. I have been bowling comptetive leagues for 12 years and have seen it happen ONE time. I don't think screwing handicap bowlers out of points over and over again because they get a spot back over 300 is worth that one point that I saw lost.

quote:
First, they get to use equipment that "levels the playing field" and lets, as Mo Pinel calls them "Percy Pussknucklers", dump the ball at the foul line and still get ball reactions better Earl Anthony ever did. Then, they also have to handicap them 100% from 230.

So you're saying the equipment only helps the low average bowlers?

Come on...

quote:
Now they have to accept the fact that, even though they might reach ABSOLUTE PERFECTION, they could STILL lose.

It's a handicap league...that's the way it works. I stick to my comment above about it happening ONE time in 12 years...don't see the point in changing it for a once in a blue moon occurance.

quote:
It isn't about fear, nor is it about feeling like I should win every game or series. It is about giving people at least SOME incentive to improve instead of just show up, shoot 640 scratch, add in 100 pins or more in handicap, then listen to them brag about "how they beat the crap" out of someone who actually DID shoot over 700.

Maybe most bowlers don't have the time or resources to bowl 40 games a week to improve. I used to when I ran a pro shop, but now I have 2 kids under 3 years old, and I live 30 minutes from the closest bowling alley. I don't have time to practice or the money to constantly blow on new equipment.

I love the game, but I'm not going to give my money away to someone who has more time and money than me. If that were the case I wouldn't bowl competitive leagues. People like you should bowl scratch leagues. If there aren't enough people to have one....tough s**t.

quote:
You don't have to, as Russell puts it "Screw the majority", but you don't have to give them the keys to the kingdom either. I remember being a handicap bowler, and yea getting the pins was nice, but knowing I was only getting a small percentage (70% of 200) gave me incentive to get better and get those pins myself.

I want you to think about how many times you've seen someone LOSE with a 300 game, and then how many times that a handicap bowler would lose totals because of the spotback. The tables are already in favor of the scratch bowler. If you don't believe me look at your rolloff every year, most of the scratch teams end up there anyways.

It's not giving anyone the "keys to the kingdom"...if that were the case handicap teams would run most leagues over. They don't...I know it....you know it...you just want even MORE of an advantage.

I used to be just like you...when I was bowling 40 games a week and I wanted to win everything. I wanted league handicap at 80% of 210 so my stacked team could run away and hide every third. Now I understand that kills leagues and the spirit of competition.
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Little known fact: In Russian "Hope" and "Change" translate to "Tax" and "Spend"

shelley · « **Reply #11 on:** May 15, 2010, 01:01:18 PM »

quote:
How about a negative handicap system.

Say anyone below 200 bowls scratch.
Those over 200 get a negative handicap. Say 50% of the difference of their ave. and 200.

example:
A 240 ave gets a -20 (240-200=40 40X50%=20)

Mathematically, this is stupid.

Someone with a 150 average shoots 190, 40 pins over average. All his buddies are telling him what a great job he did, how he really helped the team out. He shoots 190 maybe once a month.

Someone with a 230 average and -15 "handicap" pins shoots 20 pins below average. His teammates are raggin' on him for stinkin' up the joint. He still beat the handicap bowler, though.

If you can explain to me how that's fair, I'll suck your dcik.

SH

glssmn2001 · « **Reply #12 on:** May 15, 2010, 01:05:07 PM »

i am a 190 average bowler and i totally agree with the fact that the HDCP bowler should not be able to exceed the 300 mark. Bowling is confined to 10(12) frames with 300 being the highest possible score and allowing any bowler to exceed to win anything is just plain assinine. Handicap is fine, put what ever type you want out there, but MAX. score can only be 300.

Now I suppose if you do not feel this way then maybe Handicap should be from a score of 300 so everyone get a little something. With this every bowler can shoot 320 or whatever and we can just continue to make a mockery of bowling.

Juggernaut · « **Reply #13 on:** May 15, 2010, 02:14:12 PM »

quote:

As someone who has gone from bowling regionals and averaging 230+ to being a 3 game a week league hack for life because of career and kids,

The above describes me almost EXACTLY. My average was only 224.

quote:
I think the mentality of "learn to bowl" is pretty ignorant. We have handicap for a reason, it''s to level the playing field and give everyone a chance.

The above does NOT describe me at all. I had to "learn to bowl", so why can''t everybody? You obviously did.

quote:
The real gripe with your post is the fact that people get pins and beat you. Let''s call it for what it is.

No, my real gripe is watching guys dump superballs with broken wrist releases and get balls to do what it took me 10 years to LEARN how to do.

quote:
How many times have you seen someone lose with a 300. I have been bowling comptetive leagues for 12 years and have seen it happen ONE time. I don''t think screwing handicap bowlers out of points over and over again because they get a spot back over 300 is worth that one point that I saw lost.

Here, you have a valid point. Not very often on a week to week basis, but a handicapped high game and series usually win the high pot for the year because they end up being over 300 and ALMOST over 900.

quote:

So you''re saying the equipment only helps the low average bowlers?

Come on...

No, but the help is GREATLY dis-proportionate.

quote:

Maybe most bowlers don''t have the time or resources to bowl 40 games a week to improve. I used to when I ran a pro shop, but now I have 2 kids under 3 years old, and I live 30 minutes from the closest bowling alley. I don''t have time to practice or the money to constantly blow on new equipment.

I started bowling competitively when I was 22. I had a house, a car, and a job that paid $10.50 an hour. I averaged 103 my first year, but spent the time, money, and effort it took to LEARN THE GAME. If I could do it, ANYBODY could, IF THEY WANTED TO.

quote:
I love the game, but I''m not going to give my money away to someone who has more time and money than me. If that were the case I wouldn''t bowl competitive leagues. People like you should bowl scratch leagues. If there aren''t enough people to have one....tough s**t

And I love the game as well. Heck, I''m that guy that has showed half the bowlers here how to hook the ball, free of charge and just because they asked. Thing is, I don''t think the guys who DO take the time, money, and effort to LEARN THE GAME should be handicapped into total submission for their efforts. My current average is around 210, and I get a few pins handicap ( which I SHOULDN''T).

I wish I COULD bowl scratch leagues. I would get my azz handed to me more often than not, but that''s not possible here, and yes it is my tough s**t luck.

quote:

I want you to think about how many times you''ve seen someone LOSE with a 300 game, and then how many times that a handicap bowler would lose totals because of the spotback.

Like I agreed earlier, you have a point here, even if they DO win the handicapped game and series pots.

quote:
The tables are already in favor of the scratch bowler. If you don''t believe me look at your rolloff every year, most of the scratch teams end up there anyways.

There ARE no "scratch teams" in my leagues anymore. They''ve all taken on some lower average bowlers to meet the maximum team average limits that were imposed by the handicapped bowlers three years ago.

quote:
It''s not giving anyone the "keys to the kingdom"...if that were the case handicap teams would run most leagues over. They don''t...I know it....you know it...you just want even MORE of an advantage.

No, but since they can''t run them over, they gang up and take them over because their are so many more of them. They just bring up a subject, then out vote the scratch minority.

quote:
I used to be just like you...when I was bowling 40 games a week and I wanted to win everything.

Then you DO understand. Only thing is, your philosophy changed when your bowling habits did, and mine did not change. I now only bowl 3-6 games a week (right now I''m out with a knee injury), but STILL think the way I used to.

quote:
I wanted league handicap at 80% of 210 so my stacked team could run away and hide every third.

I like to win, but it isn''t about "running away and hiding every third", it''s about giving each and every bowler what he''s earned through his own efforts because that seems "fair", doesn''t it?

quote:
Now I understand that kills leagues and the spirit of competition.

See, that''s just wierd to me. When I was a newbie, I got beat all the time by better bowlers, but that was just incentive for me to get better and learn how they did it, not just continue to stink and penalize them enough so that I could compete with them.

We don''t disagree as much as it would appear, I don''t think, I just wish bowlers had to work a little harder, learn a little more, EARN a little bit more like WE had to, and quit relying on someone to just give them enough to make up the difference.

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Edited on 5/15/2010 2:17 PM

Pinbuster · « **Reply #14 on:** May 15, 2010, 04:34:45 PM »

I really dislike the statement of they should just learn to bowl.

Thru the years I've known lots of league bowlers who spent large sums of money, practiced many games a week, and sought out the best coaches and could never average more than 170. Some people just do not have the co-ordination needed to shoot higher scores.

I also disagree that equipment helps the lower average bowler more. Most 150 average bowlers would average about the same with plastic or with resin. The higher average bowler gets more boost in score for the easier lane conditions and reactive balls.

Watch what happens when lane machine malfunctions, the higher averages will shoot significantly lower and low averages will not be so effected.

The easy lanes and advanced ball are sometimes a bigger crutch for the mid range bowler, the 180 to 200 average.

I've been on the losing end of shooting 300 and losing to a 302 with handicap. I reached over and congratulated them for the good score. It is the only time I have seen someone lose like that and I have been bowling over 45 years.

Handicap leagues are just that, not serious competition for high average bowlers. You can't take them too seriously.

Author Topic: An idea that I wish all HDCP leagues would adapt.. (lengthy) (Read 5120 times)

lil League Coach

An idea that I wish all HDCP leagues would adapt.. (lengthy)

Russell

Re: An idea that I wish all HDCP leagues would adapt.. (lengthy)

Juggernaut

Re: An idea that I wish all HDCP leagues would adapt.. (lengthy)

averagebowler

Re: An idea that I wish all HDCP leagues would adapt.. (lengthy)

Juggernaut

Re: An idea that I wish all HDCP leagues would adapt.. (lengthy)

dukeblue87

Re: An idea that I wish all HDCP leagues would adapt.. (lengthy)

rexb300

Re: An idea that I wish all HDCP leagues would adapt.. (lengthy)

TMack

Re: An idea that I wish all HDCP leagues would adapt.. (lengthy)

Aloarjr810

Re: An idea that I wish all HDCP leagues would adapt.. (lengthy)

PLM

Re: An idea that I wish all HDCP leagues would adapt.. (lengthy)

Russell

Re: An idea that I wish all HDCP leagues would adapt.. (lengthy)

shelley

Re: An idea that I wish all HDCP leagues would adapt.. (lengthy)

glssmn2001

Re: An idea that I wish all HDCP leagues would adapt.. (lengthy)

Juggernaut

Re: An idea that I wish all HDCP leagues would adapt.. (lengthy)

Pinbuster

Re: An idea that I wish all HDCP leagues would adapt.. (lengthy)