Author Topic: An idea that I wish all HDCP leagues would adapt.. (lengthy) (Read 5121 times)

lil League Coach · « **on:** May 14, 2010, 01:52:20 PM »

I know the bowlers with lower averages will argue with me but its just a suggestion that I wish some leagues/ league officers would take into consideration. I have been thinking about this for quite sometime now. All the leagues in my area are Handicap some 90% some 100% (fun fun). Here is my complaint.

I dont think its fair that a bowler should be allowed to shoot games over 300. I bowled against guys getting 60-70 pins per game and shooting 250-260 scratch games giving them well over 300. There are bowlers in the league getting 0 pins HDCP (myself included) and I dont think its fair that if I achieve perfection I have a chance to get beat.(I realize most are thinking then join a scratch league--- there is nothing under an hour drive) I think that a perfect score should be 300 regardless of what your handicap is. Look at other sports......

--In football most of the time (WR, RBS, TE, QBs) score the majority of TDs well lets say there is a fumble and a lineman scores a TD.. it still counts as 6pts there is no Bonus pts awarded.

--In hockey if a goalie scores a goal it only counts as 1 goal nothing extra. I can go on and on.. I just wanted to air that out and see what the ballreviews community thinks about it.

I try bringing this up before the start of all of our leagues and I get looked at like I have 10 heads.
--------------------
TJ TROUT
PBA EAST REGIONAL MEMBER
Vise Grip Staff "choice of champions"
thomasjtrout@yahoo.com
Keglers Pro Shop - Owner (www.keglersproshop.com)

Edited on 5/14/2010 9:52 PM

Edited on 5/14/2010 9:53 PM

Edited on 5/15/2010 8:59 AM

TamerBowling · « **Reply #16 on:** May 15, 2010, 04:52:58 PM »

During the winter season, I bowl in handicap leagues and scratch leagues.
While it does get frustrating once in a while in the handicap league, everyone in a handicap league knows what they are getting into. Frankly, pots are rarely won by handicap bowlers. High game is rarely won by a handicap bowler. In the handicap league, we use 90% and my team has negative score every week because we are over the cap. The thing is we have different teams win every year and people just enjoy the opportunity to win. It's not dominated by one team.

Almost all the scratch bowlers bowl on a handicap league as well. Some complain more than others, but it is what it is. Honestly, I initially had mixed feelings about seeing a high scratch score of 325 but they will rarely bowl that high.

Then again, scratch bowlers find other things to complain about in the scratch leagues, like "it's a lefty house" or "the 205 bowler spraying all over getting strikes while I'm 220 and can't carry anything". There's always something to complain about it seems.

I just enjoy bowling and like anybody sometimes get frustrated, but in the end have no big problems with the system. I think 90% is fair as it tends to even the playing field for a fun league.
--------------------
www.TamerBowling.com
Everything Bowling, coaching tips, ball reviews, General bowling discussions
USBC Certified Level I

Juggernaut · « **Reply #17 on:** May 15, 2010, 05:42:18 PM »

quote:
Same tired old stuff from Juggernaut. See his post about Petraglia saying sport bowling not the answer.

And the same old tired responses from you as well.

quote:
You like to put yourself up on a pedestal that you are so much better than most people.

No. As a matter of fact, I am not NEARLY as good as I once was. And furthermore, it isn't about ME, it's about bowling.

quote:
You resent new balls,

Yeah, a little.

quote:
you can't stand people that don't have "perfect" releases like you, blah, blah.

My release is FAR from perfect. And those that ask get shown how to do it, not rebuffed for their ignorance. I love to help people learn about bowling.

quote:
Here's the ironic part....all you do is b$tch about the lack of oil on today's lanes in post after post. Well, superbowler, learn to adjust. Tone the release down.

I have, but it turns out my complaints were valid. The old laneman got fired because they caught him INTENTIONALLY messing with certain bowlers (me included) by putting oil on one lane and not the other or stripping one lane and not the other. Maybe I was under the impression that todays conditions suck only because MY conditions did.

quote:
Here's the funny thing...lots of guys can strap it, not dump it, and average in the 230's. So what's your problem?

Like I said, I used to average 224 when I was bowling more, so no problem here.

quote:
Unfortunately, you cut the handicap and your league will lose teams. Seen it time and time again. You're not willing to drive to bowl against bowlers of your high caliber? Give up bowling or at least quit b$tching about it all the time.

Now THIS I can agree with. And I CAN'T drive to compete with those guys. My old employer went bankrupt and my new one has me working on an "as needed" basis, so I have to be available when the call comes and be there in an hour or lose money.

And, I'm NOT really b$tching about things, even though it must seem that way, I guess I'm just disgruntled at the modern participants lack of what bowling once was, and therefore their lack of understanding at what it took to be considered "good".

I DON"T HATE HANDICAP, NOR DO I HATE HANDICAP BOWLERS. That's where I started, and where WE all started I'll bet, I just think there should be SOME limit to it somewhere, otherwise, where is the incentive to get better? Where is the incentive to learn the game and its history? With no incentive, who will ever love the game like WE do?

CRD, I know we see things differently, but honestly, it isn't about me, it's about the game. I've come to grips with the fact that I'm older and must make room for the next generation, I just want them to be bowlers who love the game, learn the game, and appreciate where it came from so they can take it into the future where their going. Is that so bad?
--------------------
Good transactions list in my profile

Aloarjr810 · « **Reply #18 on:** May 15, 2010, 07:06:10 PM »

quote:

Mathematically, this is stupid.

Someone with a 150 average shoots 190, 40 pins over average. All his buddies are telling him what a great job he did, how he really helped the team out. He shoots 190 maybe once a month.

Someone with a 230 average and -15 "handicap" pins shoots 20 pins below average. His teammates are raggin'' on him for stinkin'' up the joint. He still beat the handicap bowler, though.

If you can explain to me how that''s fair, I''ll suck your dcik.

SH

Lets see:
the 150 ave shoots 190
the 230 ave shoots 210 -15 which gives him 195

hows that fair? well the high ave guy beat the low ave guy. the big complaint about handicap is high ave bowlers are losing to low ave bowlers all the time ( because they shoot over ave or improve all the time). here they didnt

As for giving me a blow,Ill pass I dont swing that way. But Im glad to see you came out of the closet.

Edited on 5/15/2010 7:33 PM

Aloarjr810 · « **Reply #19 on:** May 15, 2010, 07:16:57 PM »

quote:

Dude, you forgot to add in the handicapped guys pins.

Lets see:

150 avg bowler shoots 190 AND gets 65 pins, gives him 255
the 230 avg bowler shoots 250 AND STILL LOSES.
--------------------
Good transactions list in my profile

Dude you didn't read my original post.
Anyone with a ave below 200 had to shoot scratch and didn't get any handicap!

Juggernaut · « **Reply #20 on:** May 15, 2010, 07:18:57 PM »

Yea, I did, and I was in the process of deleting my reply due to its ignorance once I rememberes that fact.

Sorry for the ooooops.
--------------------
Good transactions list in my profile

shelley · « **Reply #21 on:** May 15, 2010, 07:44:09 PM »

quote:
hows that fair? well the high ave guy beat the low ave guy. the big complaint about handicap is high ave bowlers are losing to low ave bowlers all the time ( because they shoot over ave or improve all the time). here they didnt

At what point do you take that to its absurd conclusion that a 210-average bowler should never beat a 215-average bowler?

Yes, the complaint is that the high average bowlers are losing to the low average bowlers, but I'd like some statistics to back that up. More than anecdotal evidence, that is. The problem is that high average bowlers tend to remember getting beat by a guy they're giving 50 pins to but they don't ever seem to remember the regular poundings they give back. Until someone provides me with some season-long datasets showing who beats who and when, I won't buy it.

Also, you don't seem to actually understand what handicap is supposed to do or what "everyone has a fair chance" means. You are confusing "fair" with "high average bowlers win", which is more closely related to "just".

SH

Aloarjr810 · « **Reply #22 on:** May 15, 2010, 08:07:31 PM »

quote:

At what point do you take that to its absurd conclusion that a 210-average bowler should never beat a 215-average bowler?

Yes, the complaint is that the high average bowlers are losing to the low average bowlers, but I''d like some statistics to back that up. More than anecdotal evidence, that is. The problem is that high average bowlers tend to remember getting beat by a guy they''re giving 50 pins to but they don''t ever seem to remember the regular poundings they give back. Until someone provides me with some season-long datasets showing who beats who and when, I won''t buy it.

Also, you don''t seem to actually understand what handicap is supposed to do or what "everyone has a fair chance" means. You are confusing "fair" with "high average bowlers win", which is more closely related to "just".

SH

As for the 210 and 215 ave bowlers, where did they come in this? and who said that a 210-average bowler should never beat a 215-average bowler? I didn''t.

Also in my original post where did I say it was fair? I didn''t.

Oh and as for the 210 and 215 guys, using the negative system back in that post.
the 210 guy would only have a -5 and the 215 guy would only be a -7. the 210 guy would hardly lose all the time.

Edited on 5/15/2010 8:11 PM

bltbyj · « **Reply #23 on:** May 15, 2010, 08:13:38 PM »

An older lady once told a high avg bowler to "Just Shut Up and Bowl" when he was complaining about handicap.

rvmark · « **Reply #24 on:** May 15, 2010, 09:38:35 PM »

I enjoy bowling and until a back injury sidelined me I bowled 9-12 games per week. I not only wanted to get better but I really enjoy bowling. I am with the crowd that would congratulate the low average bowler who throws a high score. Yes our team will more than likely lose, but that is what happens in a handicap league. Handicap leagues are designed to give everyone a chance. Making rules that favor only the high average bowlers will only discourage the lower average bowlers and they will more than likely lose interest.

In the end I think it would be best to just enjoy the bowling!

Mark

TamerBowling · « **Reply #25 on:** May 15, 2010, 10:01:25 PM »

quote:
An older lady once told a high avg bowler to "Just Shut Up and Bowl" when he was complaining about handicap.

The Short short version

--------------------
www.TamerBowling.com
Everything Bowling, coaching tips, ball reviews, General bowling discussions
USBC Certified Level I

bltbyj · « **Reply #26 on:** May 15, 2010, 10:43:44 PM »

quote:
quote:
An older lady once told a high avg bowler to "Just Shut Up and Bowl" when he was complaining about handicap.

The Short short version
--------------------
www.TamerBowling.com
Everything Bowling, coaching tips, ball reviews, General bowling discussions
USBC Certified Level I

Yup

.

Russell · « **Reply #27 on:** May 16, 2010, 10:10:35 AM »

quote:
quote:

Mathematically, this is stupid.

Someone with a 150 average shoots 190, 40 pins over average. All his buddies are telling him what a great job he did, how he really helped the team out. He shoots 190 maybe once a month.

Someone with a 230 average and -15 "handicap" pins shoots 20 pins below average. His teammates are raggin'' on him for stinkin'' up the joint. He still beat the handicap bowler, though.

If you can explain to me how that''s fair, I''ll suck your dcik.

SH

Lets see:
the 150 ave shoots 190
the 230 ave shoots 210 -15 which gives him 195

hows that fair? well the high ave guy beat the low ave guy. the big complaint about handicap is high ave bowlers are losing to low ave bowlers all the time ( because they shoot over ave or improve all the time). here they didnt

As for giving me a blow,Ill pass I dont swing that way. But Im glad to see you came out of the closet.

Edited on 5/15/2010 7:33 PM

So handicap bowlers beat high average bowlers all the time?

Do you do the math in Washington as well?

90% of 230

225 bowler gets 4 pins

150 bowler gets 72 pins

If both thoot their average the high average bowler wins...right?

So how does the low average bowler win most of the time?

Don't give me some crap about "well they shoot higher more of the time"....because they don't. If they did their average wouldn't be 150 anymore.

I see so many high average bowlers who spent enough time to get better, but not enough time paying attention to simple math in school to figure out percentages and odds.
--------------------
Little known fact: In Russian "Hope" and "Change" translate to "Tax" and "Spend"

Aloarjr810 · « **Reply #28 on:** May 16, 2010, 11:35:45 AM »

quote:
quote:
the big complaint about handicap is high ave bowlers are losing to low ave bowlers all the time ( because they shoot over ave or improve all the time).

So handicap bowlers beat high average bowlers all the time?

No they don't beat high average bowlers all the time and I never said they did. I just said thats the big complaint.

Heres what I personally think:
I don't have a problem the handicap system as it is now. I think most of the time when High ave. bowlers lose and blame handicap, its really because "they as a team or individual" just didn't bowl good.

In all the leagues I've been on when you seen a high ave. team lose and you looked at the scores.They lost because they just bowled average or a little under. The low average team bowl their average or just a little more.

High average bowlers a lot of the time, act as though low average bowlers are having career nights every night they bowl and they are constantly improving.

But if they constantly doing that, why dont their averages go up. They all cant be sandbagging.

Yes lower averages have more room to shoot over average and improve. But thats not the fault of handicap and you cant penalize them just for having a good night or improving.

As to the O.P. thoughts about 300's
A 300 is a perfect "scratch" game. Your bowling a handicap league
As for football and hockey, they are playing in a "scratch league".
If they added a handicap, a lineman might very well get extra points who knows.

Author Topic: An idea that I wish all HDCP leagues would adapt.. (lengthy) (Read 5121 times)

lil League Coach

An idea that I wish all HDCP leagues would adapt.. (lengthy)

TamerBowling

Re: An idea that I wish all HDCP leagues would adapt.. (lengthy)

Juggernaut

Re: An idea that I wish all HDCP leagues would adapt.. (lengthy)

Aloarjr810

Re: An idea that I wish all HDCP leagues would adapt.. (lengthy)

Aloarjr810

Re: An idea that I wish all HDCP leagues would adapt.. (lengthy)

Juggernaut

Re: An idea that I wish all HDCP leagues would adapt.. (lengthy)

shelley

Re: An idea that I wish all HDCP leagues would adapt.. (lengthy)

Aloarjr810

Re: An idea that I wish all HDCP leagues would adapt.. (lengthy)

bltbyj

Re: An idea that I wish all HDCP leagues would adapt.. (lengthy)

rvmark

Re: An idea that I wish all HDCP leagues would adapt.. (lengthy)

TamerBowling

Re: An idea that I wish all HDCP leagues would adapt.. (lengthy)

bltbyj

Re: An idea that I wish all HDCP leagues would adapt.. (lengthy)

Russell

Re: An idea that I wish all HDCP leagues would adapt.. (lengthy)

Aloarjr810

Re: An idea that I wish all HDCP leagues would adapt.. (lengthy)