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Author Topic: Angles to the pocket  (Read 10556 times)

Jesse James

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Angles to the pocket
« on: January 04, 2014, 09:05:33 AM »
I know this has been discussed before but what angle to the 1-3 pocket seems to get the most strikes? Would it be down and in.....up the boards.....or the inside swing shot which a lot off balls already have that angularity built into them?
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Rightycomplex

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Re: Angles to the pocket
« Reply #16 on: January 04, 2014, 09:26:21 PM »
LOL, Chicks dig the big hook?
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Rightycomplex

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Re: Angles to the pocket
« Reply #17 on: January 04, 2014, 09:34:06 PM »
I will retract my second statement and agree with Tdub that no not the earliest but definitely earlier than most of these skid/flip reactions that most people are looking for.
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JustRico

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Re: Angles to the pocket
« Reply #18 on: January 04, 2014, 10:37:53 PM »
It has to do with rotational value or integrity...difference between flare out vs roll out.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2014, 10:48:47 PM by JustRico »
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Jesse James

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Re: Angles to the pocket
« Reply #19 on: January 04, 2014, 11:29:48 PM »
I would tend to believe that ball speed is as important as anything...

I find this statement interesting because one of the first things my friend said in trying to justify his position was...I have to be more consistent with my ball speed!

However....i believe your ball speed will fluctuate greatly as you attempt to find that sweet spot in your swing when changing balls. It is inevitable.
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JustRico

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Re: Angles to the pocket
« Reply #20 on: January 04, 2014, 11:37:21 PM »
My comment is more in regards to pin carry...if the ball is slowing down properly, your pin carry increases...the average to above average bowler's ball speed does not fluctuate that much...
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tdub36tjt

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Re: Angles to the pocket
« Reply #21 on: January 05, 2014, 07:34:41 AM »
It has to do with rotational value or integrity...difference between flare out vs roll out.

Care to go more into this or have a link that does??

JustRico

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Re: Angles to the pocket
« Reply #22 on: January 05, 2014, 09:19:42 AM »
Sorry, it's in my head...and soon to be in a book (:
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Elite279_10

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Re: Angles to the pocket
« Reply #23 on: January 05, 2014, 10:13:55 AM »
« Last Edit: January 05, 2014, 10:29:26 AM by Elite279_10 »
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Juggernaut

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Re: Angles to the pocket
« Reply #24 on: January 05, 2014, 01:35:20 PM »
It has to do with rotational value or integrity...difference between flare out vs roll out.

Care to go more into this or have a link that does??

 Not totally sure here, but I do believe he is talking about the difference between the energy retention changing the direction of the roll VS the ball LOSING it's energy retention and rolling OUT.

 In the former, the ball will slow down, but still retain enough rotational energy that the ball will begin to roll in the direction of the balls rotation. This is also what causes any continuation through the pocket and pin deck. Imparting, and storing, enough energy is a VITAL component of ball performance.

 In the latter, the ball will slow down, but have no energy left to cause it to move laterally (hook), and will take an end-over-end roll in the direction of momentum (straight). This ball will deflect GREATLY, and have little, if any, hitting power.


 Ball reaction is built using the cumulative effects of several factors, but it basically boils down to the energy imparted to the ball VS the energy used by the ball on it's way down the lane. 

  The higher the friction factors, the quicker the ball burns up the energy. Burn up too much, and your ball will be D.O.A.
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JustRico

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Re: Angles to the pocket
« Reply #25 on: January 05, 2014, 02:49:49 PM »
^^^^^^
Nice job!
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JohnP

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Re: Angles to the pocket
« Reply #26 on: January 05, 2014, 04:38:11 PM »
For best carry the ball needs to reach the roll phase.  But when both the axis tilt and axis rotation reach 0 the ball "hooks out" and hits like a marshmellow.

strikeking

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Re: Angles to the pocket
« Reply #27 on: January 06, 2014, 06:11:38 PM »
Eons ago the then A B C decided that an angel of 2 degrees was the best angle to carry strikes. They determined this by rolling a ball down a fixed ramp. However there are so many variables such as speed, rotation, lane and ball surface, weight etc. that this didn't really prove anything. Condition of the pins and their weight also have an effect.
Sooooo  the best angle is the one that works for you at that particular time. And that could change at any moment.
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Aloarjr810

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Re: Angles to the pocket
« Reply #28 on: January 06, 2014, 07:27:18 PM »
The USBC Pin Carry study found a 6 degree entry angle had the highest strike percentage.
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avabob

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Re: Angles to the pocket
« Reply #29 on: January 08, 2014, 03:38:05 PM »
Entry angle per se is the most over rated, and mis understood variable in bowling.  The only way to carry consistently on anything other than a dead flush high pocket hit is to minimize ( not eliminate, but minimize ) deflection off the head pin. 

What people do not understand is that increased entry angle in and of itself does not decrease deflection, but only changes the direction of deflection.  What minimizes deflection is the release of rotational energy regardless of entry angle. 

The reason entry angle became so ingrained is that prior to the super hard surfaces, and the aggressive shelled balls, there was a high correlation between the amount of hook, and the release of rotational energy.  That relationship is no longer so close today.  The reason is that balls will roll out so quickly after leaving the skid stage.

If you want a real life demonstration of what I am talking about watch any PBA telecast since they have gone to longer oil.  All of the guys have gone to more end over end ( less axis rotation ) causing them to play much straighter, but their carry has not dropped at all.  Indeed on the super long Badger pattern even low rev guys could play relatively straight ( we use to call it fall back ) at 4th arrow and still drive the 5 out on half pocket hits.  The reason is that if they match ball speed to rev rate, the ball is still releasing energy at the optimal place, resisting deflection, even at shallow entry angles.

LuckyLefty

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Re: Angles to the pocket
« Reply #30 on: January 08, 2014, 05:05:28 PM »
AVA,

That is a great explanation.  I have always been amazed at watching Walter Ray and especially Norm Duke taking out the 5 pin while barely touching it and playing very straight.  I often perceived they were using 16 when this very slight entry angles seemed to work.

As a bowler who can develop tremendous attack angle to the pocket with very high measured entry angles at Kegel(and large speed differentials between release speed and pocket entry speed) I know of what you speak.

Extreme entry angles that can be generated with a side release and today's balls can often lead to thundering 9s!  Something I am famous for!

I wonder how the uber side release great bowler of all time PDW continues to be competitive at this time with more side release than many of his adversaries.

Please continue...the information is enjoyed and appreciated.

Regards,

Luckylefty
PS I am still a big believer in 16 pound balls over 15 under 3 circumstances.  Shallow attack angle as you mentioned.  2.  Carrydown and 3.  Fallback which is just another version of shallow attack angle.  If you want feel free to elaborate on that idea also..
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