BallReviews
General Category => Miscellaneous => Topic started by: Jesse James on January 04, 2014, 09:05:33 AM
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I know this has been discussed before but what angle to the 1-3 pocket seems to get the most strikes? Would it be down and in.....up the boards.....or the inside swing shot which a lot off balls already have that angularity built into them?
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Depends on the condition plus how & where the ball is losing energy...
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You cant really define the absolute best carry that way.
Im sure there are studies that calculate optimum carry angle.
After bowling on multiple patterns over the last several years (sport & house)
i am more focused on repeating good shots and keeping the pocket in play
The shot usually dictates what angles are available, then a tweak here or there with a different piece or surface is what i do
I rarely decide on what angle is best
Again, this is just ME, how I process the information I see and use.
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Thanks for the reply. The reason I ask is this....got into a discussion with another bowler who recognizes the fact that geometry is in play, regarding how you attack the lanes, However, he refuses to believe that in some cases, on some conditions, you HAVE TO MOVE YOUR ANGLE of attack. He believes that he can attack the pocket down and in, all day long, without moving, just by changing balls.
Essentially changing the ball surface to match the conditions he sees. I said, this may very well be possible but your carry will suffer as you attempt to match up, each and every time you switch balls.
Now mind you, he steadfastly believes that he does not have to move his feet or target, once a track has been burned into the pattern......yet.....what started this conversation to begin with was.....his frustration with constantly pinging ten pins! LOL! Unbelievable to me.
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That is a losing conversation, something along the lines of a quote we all have seen
Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience
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I don't look at it as stupid at all...I look at it as interesting the way the mind functions when looking at it from a 'scientific' way and there arguments pertaining to such. It's logical to them
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It all depends on how you're able to get the ball to face the pocket. Sometimes, best way is up the g, sometimes, 5th arrow fallback. As we all know, it's important to knock them down, not look like we're going to knock them down. Your friend sounds very intelligent, but I've found that sometimes, you can over think. Its a sport where you have to watch multiple things to figure out why you're not carrying.
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I would tend to believe that ball speed is as important as anything...
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This going to sound douchy but, the best angle is the one the condition requires with your specs. The ball has too stop hooking and start rolling, ball that can roll the longest will have the better potential to strike more. Strokers don't have too much versatility to their game so Down and In is ideal and probably the easiest as there aren't many boards to cover. Now this doesn't mean that Strokers, are better, it just means they'll have less transitions and less ground to cover.
Drier conditions help the ball to roll which is why scores go up on dry patterns. Oil requires more surface and stronger balls to help the ball slow down and stop hooking. This why Strokers move in and wrap corners, they are not getting the ball to slow down fast enough to get into a roll so the ball is still hooking through the pins.
Everyone wants all this "continuation" and that's the reason they don't strike.
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This going to sound douchy but, the best angle is the one the condition requires with your specs. The ball has too stop hooking and start rolling, ball that can roll the longest will have the better potential to strike more. Strokers don't have too much versatility to their game so Down and In is ideal and probably the easiest as there aren't many boards to cover. Now this doesn't mean that Strokers, are better, it just means they'll have less transitions and less ground to cover.
Drier conditions help the ball to roll which is why scores go up on dry patterns. Oil requires more surface and stronger balls to help the ball slow down and stop hooking. This why Strokers move in and wrap corners, they are not getting the ball to slow down fast enough to get into a roll so the ball is still hooking through the pins.
Everyone wants all this "continuation" and that's the reason they don't strike.
Agree, I prefer hook/stop balls, I can manage that shape more than all this "continuous" phenomenon. Continuous is the new buzz word for selling balls.
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Continuation as well as roll stop can both be misconceptions...both can create better carry as well as worse...it's understanding what the pins are telling you as much as anything. Bowling ball tells you what the lanes are doing and the pins will tell you what the bowling ball is doing.
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Continuation as well as roll stop can both be misconceptions...both can create better carry as well as worse...it's understanding what the pins are telling you as much as anything. Bowling ball tells you what the lanes are doing and the pins will tell you what the bowling ball is doing.
You should write a book!
;)
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A ball that rolls too soon will give u terrible carry.....
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A ball that rolls too soon will give u terrible carry.....
False, once the ball start rolling, it increases your strike percentage. The ball is rolling forward instead of sideways.
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A ball that rolls too soon will give u terrible carry.....
False, once the ball start rolling, it increases your strike percentage. The ball is rolling forward instead of sideways.
So why ever throw anything other than a high end ball with 360 grit surface with the strongest possible layout?
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LOL, Chicks dig the big hook?
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I will retract my second statement and agree with Tdub that no not the earliest but definitely earlier than most of these skid/flip reactions that most people are looking for.
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It has to do with rotational value or integrity...difference between flare out vs roll out.
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I would tend to believe that ball speed is as important as anything...
I find this statement interesting because one of the first things my friend said in trying to justify his position was...I have to be more consistent with my ball speed!
However....i believe your ball speed will fluctuate greatly as you attempt to find that sweet spot in your swing when changing balls. It is inevitable.
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My comment is more in regards to pin carry...if the ball is slowing down properly, your pin carry increases...the average to above average bowler's ball speed does not fluctuate that much...
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It has to do with rotational value or integrity...difference between flare out vs roll out.
Care to go more into this or have a link that does??
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Sorry, it's in my head...and soon to be in a book (:
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Here's something that might have what your looking for
http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/images/8/8d/PinCarryStudy.pdf
Ball motion phases
http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/index.php?title=Three_Phases_of_Ball_Motion
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It has to do with rotational value or integrity...difference between flare out vs roll out.
Care to go more into this or have a link that does??
Not totally sure here, but I do believe he is talking about the difference between the energy retention changing the direction of the roll VS the ball LOSING it's energy retention and rolling OUT.
In the former, the ball will slow down, but still retain enough rotational energy that the ball will begin to roll in the direction of the balls rotation. This is also what causes any continuation through the pocket and pin deck. Imparting, and storing, enough energy is a VITAL component of ball performance.
In the latter, the ball will slow down, but have no energy left to cause it to move laterally (hook), and will take an end-over-end roll in the direction of momentum (straight). This ball will deflect GREATLY, and have little, if any, hitting power.
Ball reaction is built using the cumulative effects of several factors, but it basically boils down to the energy imparted to the ball VS the energy used by the ball on it's way down the lane.
The higher the friction factors, the quicker the ball burns up the energy. Burn up too much, and your ball will be D.O.A.
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^^^^^^
Nice job!
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For best carry the ball needs to reach the roll phase. But when both the axis tilt and axis rotation reach 0 the ball "hooks out" and hits like a marshmellow.
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Eons ago the then A B C decided that an angel of 2 degrees was the best angle to carry strikes. They determined this by rolling a ball down a fixed ramp. However there are so many variables such as speed, rotation, lane and ball surface, weight etc. that this didn't really prove anything. Condition of the pins and their weight also have an effect.
Sooooo the best angle is the one that works for you at that particular time. And that could change at any moment.
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The USBC Pin Carry study found a 6 degree entry angle had the highest strike percentage.
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Entry angle per se is the most over rated, and mis understood variable in bowling. The only way to carry consistently on anything other than a dead flush high pocket hit is to minimize ( not eliminate, but minimize ) deflection off the head pin.
What people do not understand is that increased entry angle in and of itself does not decrease deflection, but only changes the direction of deflection. What minimizes deflection is the release of rotational energy regardless of entry angle.
The reason entry angle became so ingrained is that prior to the super hard surfaces, and the aggressive shelled balls, there was a high correlation between the amount of hook, and the release of rotational energy. That relationship is no longer so close today. The reason is that balls will roll out so quickly after leaving the skid stage.
If you want a real life demonstration of what I am talking about watch any PBA telecast since they have gone to longer oil. All of the guys have gone to more end over end ( less axis rotation ) causing them to play much straighter, but their carry has not dropped at all. Indeed on the super long Badger pattern even low rev guys could play relatively straight ( we use to call it fall back ) at 4th arrow and still drive the 5 out on half pocket hits. The reason is that if they match ball speed to rev rate, the ball is still releasing energy at the optimal place, resisting deflection, even at shallow entry angles.
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AVA,
That is a great explanation. I have always been amazed at watching Walter Ray and especially Norm Duke taking out the 5 pin while barely touching it and playing very straight. I often perceived they were using 16 when this very slight entry angles seemed to work.
As a bowler who can develop tremendous attack angle to the pocket with very high measured entry angles at Kegel(and large speed differentials between release speed and pocket entry speed) I know of what you speak.
Extreme entry angles that can be generated with a side release and today's balls can often lead to thundering 9s! Something I am famous for!
I wonder how the uber side release great bowler of all time PDW continues to be competitive at this time with more side release than many of his adversaries.
Please continue...the information is enjoyed and appreciated.
Regards,
Luckylefty
PS I am still a big believer in 16 pound balls over 15 under 3 circumstances. Shallow attack angle as you mentioned. 2. Carrydown and 3. Fallback which is just another version of shallow attack angle. If you want feel free to elaborate on that idea also..
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Even Pete has cut down his axis rotation a lot. Still appears to be well over 45 degrees, and among the most extreme out there, but way down. Back in my day when, dinosaurs ruled the earth, there simply was not enough friction on fresh conditions and we had to learn how to get the ball into a roll to minimize over skidding. For almost the past 35 years there has been ample friction, to the point that you could put a lot of side roll on a ball and never worry about over skidding. Indeed for anything less than historically high ball speeds the problem has been balls burning off energy too early, even when they have changed direction enough to create seemingly good entry angle. Going back to my original post, the pocket 7-10 is the best example of what I am talking about. It was almost never seen prior to urethane lane finishes and the soft plastic balls. it results when a ball comes out of a skid relatively late, makes a fairly strong change of direction, but has no rotational energy left when it hits the pocket. Strong entry angle changes, but does not reduce the deflection. Ball deflects, but still catches the 5 pin. You get a flat 10 on one side, and a blowout 7 on the other side because the 5 didn't get hit hard enough to get to the 7. In the very old days when a ball had enough rotational energy to create good entry angle, there was enough energy left to hit the 5 harder and get it over to the seven. It wasn't the entry angle the helped the carry, but the remaining energy still being released to minimize deflection.
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Ava....
Great explanation.
Regards,
Luckylefty