BallReviews
General Category => Miscellaneous => Topic started by: Gizmo823 on March 11, 2014, 01:07:49 PM
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The girls manage transition pretty well, or at least they don't break down the lanes as fast as the guys do. I'll see the guys sometimes lofting gutter caps after 3 games though. Is there a strategy behind this? I could see maybe mucking the shot up to try to block teams out if you've got guys that are good at lofting gutter caps, or if you have better bowlers that are able to adjust quicker. However, I would think that if you have better bowlers, slowing the transition would be more to their advantage because it would increase their scores while the lesser bowlers would still struggle. Enlighten me here, I'm curious.
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I don't think that is a situation unique to college bowling. The ladies play the lanes like the seniors as they are kind of forced to due to lower rev rates and the guys get while the getting is good.
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The women's teams don't typically have high rev bowlers. They all end up playing the same part of the lane. And this is true team to team. This means the shot holds up pretty well.
The men's teams have a wide variety of bowling styles. And, a lot of them only have one game. It is harder to get all of the guys playing a typical line and making adjustments off of that line. Plus, you move so much, you would hope that everyone is playing the shot properly, but they usually don't. Their egos typically get in the way.
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Ok, that's how it appeared to me, but I didn't want to get yelled at for being "negative" again. I'm more of a destroy the 4-5-6 boards then get something out like a Hyroad and just make little moves to more head oil every once and a while kind of guy. The gutter cap lofting thing inside of 3 games doesn't make any sense, so I thought there may have been some kind of strategy there.
However, they move from pair to pair so frequently that there's really no time to groove a shot in, so I guess getting what you can get while you can is about all they can really do.
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The usual suspects, i.e. Robert Morris/Wichita St. etc are much adept at playing in and lofting gutter caps than a majority of other teams, its a competitive advantage for them to do so.
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This is something that happens on tour, in match play, where many of the guys break them down in regards to offense instead of defense...much of the time it gives opponents as much of an advantage instead thinking of a teams strength as opposed to weaker teams
It still comes down to shot making but in college events many of the teams use too much surface too early thus forcing everybody left too quick
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The last sentence is what I was I thought or noticed, and I assumed it had to be strategy since it didn't make much sense . .
This is something that happens on tour, in match play, where many of the guys break them down in regards to offense instead of defense...much of the time it gives opponents as much of an advantage instead thinking of a teams strength as opposed to weaker teams
It still comes down to shot making but in college events many of the teams use too much surface too early thus forcing everybody left too quick
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Anymore it seems today's bowler tries to blow open a condition too quickly to try & gain an advantage and in the long run creating a tougher condition
Too much alleged strategy used instead of bowling
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This is something that happens on tour, in match play, where many of the guys break them down in regards to offense instead of defense...much of the time it gives opponents as much of an advantage instead thinking of a teams strength as opposed to weaker teams
It still comes down to shot making but in college events many of the teams use too much surface too early thus forcing everybody left too quick
Very true here.
But the other thing to think about is the age of the bowlers and their mental game at this time. With the exception of the depth of talent on some of the teams, it is a bit lacking. What I mean by that (and I'll admit it; in my college days I was just as guilty of it myself) is that (it was mentioned earlier, too) the guys would only play their A game, because that was all that they knew. That came down to which ball could outhook the others and pound the pocket. Good story and learning lesson for me here:
Coming straight out of high school, I fell into the same trap that Marshall Holman did in that match against Marc McDowell. Holman was struggling to carry with urethane, while McDowell pounded the pocket with the XCalibur. Same thing happened to me at my first tournament (can't remember the name of it but it was at Dave Soutar's house at the time: NKC Pro Bowl in N. Kansas City). I come out of the gate thinking that I'm good with my Blue and Blue Pearl Hammers...
And get completely blown out of the water by people throwing the XCalibur, Rhino Pro, and Turbo-X. We left that tournament on a Sunday; Monday morning, I pulled $250 together, went straight to my pro shop, and bought both of those. Now, that got me my A game going, but it didn't teach me how or when to ball down and more importantly, ball down and change my look completely; Hence, my B game, where I can play up the line with whichever ball I choose. With the right coaching for me and watching various styles (like those on the Senior tour), I developed that game in college. Did it wonderfully with that Turbo-X, XCalibur, and Nitro/R when it came out (I skipped the Crush/R).
My point: do you see those teams making the right decision with surface adjustments, or their mental game, in knowing when to ball down and square up? I mean, it's harder to power through and create the shot than it is to change your line and adjust to the shot.
Anymore it seems today's bowler tries to blow open a condition too quickly to try & gain an advantage and in the long run creating a tougher condition
Too much alleged strategy used instead of bowling
Exactly.
BL.
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I know a couple of guys who used to tour.
About a dozen years ago when they were going to go to the all exempt tour, there was a large influx of tournament qualifiers for the PBA. Anybody who had thought about going out, went out and tried to make it.
They ended up with a couple of qualifying squads and one squad had a lot more of the newer players.
The tour players on that squad hated it because that squads scoring was much lower.
The experienced tour guys would work together and break down the shots, generally scoring would increase after a game or two.
But the squad with all the rookies played the lanes all over, all trying to play their A games and would end up destroying the shot for everyone.
I believe they finally went to getting equal number of rookies in both squads and some rotation of experienced players between squads.
After a few months most of the rookies had went back home and things settled down.
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More times than not what happens in two squad tournaments is B squad starts about an arrow too far left because they come in halfway through A's block and that's where they are playing by then.
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Well I'd agree here to an extent, but the thing that people seem to be leaving out of these college threads or disregarding is don't these teams have coaches? Yes I realize the age of the kids, yes I realize they're lacking in experience, because a lot of them go into college having never seen a sport pattern before. But isn't that what coaches are for? Do they not exist, or are they not very good?
This is something that happens on tour, in match play, where many of the guys break them down in regards to offense instead of defense...much of the time it gives opponents as much of an advantage instead thinking of a teams strength as opposed to weaker teams
It still comes down to shot making but in college events many of the teams use too much surface too early thus forcing everybody left too quick
Very true here.
But the other thing to think about is the age of the bowlers and their mental game at this time. With the exception of the depth of talent on some of the teams, it is a bit lacking. What I mean by that (and I'll admit it; in my college days I was just as guilty of it myself) is that (it was mentioned earlier, too) the guys would only play their A game, because that was all that they knew. That came down to which ball could outhook the others and pound the pocket. Good story and learning lesson for me here:
Coming straight out of high school, I fell into the same trap that Marshall Holman did in that match against Marc McDowell. Holman was struggling to carry with urethane, while McDowell pounded the pocket with the XCalibur. Same thing happened to me at my first tournament (can't remember the name of it but it was at Dave Soutar's house at the time: NKC Pro Bowl in N. Kansas City). I come out of the gate thinking that I'm good with my Blue and Blue Pearl Hammers...
And get completely blown out of the water by people throwing the XCalibur, Rhino Pro, and Turbo-X. We left that tournament on a Sunday; Monday morning, I pulled $250 together, went straight to my pro shop, and bought both of those. Now, that got me my A game going, but it didn't teach me how or when to ball down and more importantly, ball down and change my look completely; Hence, my B game, where I can play up the line with whichever ball I choose. With the right coaching for me and watching various styles (like those on the Senior tour), I developed that game in college. Did it wonderfully with that Turbo-X, XCalibur, and Nitro/R when it came out (I skipped the Crush/R).
My point: do you see those teams making the right decision with surface adjustments, or their mental game, in knowing when to ball down and square up? I mean, it's harder to power through and create the shot than it is to change your line and adjust to the shot.
Anymore it seems today's bowler tries to blow open a condition too quickly to try & gain an advantage and in the long run creating a tougher condition
Too much alleged strategy used instead of bowling
Exactly.
BL.
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Being an asst coach at Fresno, I can tell you our coaching is quite experienced...it's with other coaches that automatically seek the advantage without contemplating the ramifications or the latter part of the round.
A great example is a tourney they ran a very short pattern, Fresno immediately went to plastic and ended up winning by a huge amount, due to the inability of the other teams to not recognize which way to migrate and more than one team not carrying plastic.
First inclination seems to always migrate left (for right-handers) no matter what their equipment is telling them
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And that's what I'm getting at, but I don't want to get accused of being an ass. We have a youth league starting this spring that prepares kids for Jr Gold, and managing lane transition and paying attention to ball motion AND where and how everyone else is playing the lanes is going to be a big focus. I'd love to teach them how to throw plastic too, but that might be biting off too much . .
Being an asst coach at Fresno, I can tell you our coaching is quite experienced...it's with other coaches that automatically seek the advantage without contemplating the ramifications or the latter part of the round.
A great example is a tourney they ran a very short pattern, Fresno immediately went to plastic and ended up winning by a huge amount, due to the inability of the other teams to not recognize which way to migrate and more than one team not carrying plastic.
First inclination seems to always migrate left (for right-handers) no matter what their equipment is telling them
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Even though the other teams have coaches by title, doesn't mean they have coaches that know what they are doing. Some teams have good coaches like Fresno St. with Ric. Some teams have idiots like Texas A&M when I was coaching there. I have learned a lot since then and could do a much better job now, but I don't think I can ever be as good as Ric or some of the better teams.
I know a lot of the women's NCAA teams have good coaches and a couple of very successful teams that did well despite their coach. In the women's game, only a couple of teams have real talent 1-5.
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Using plastic is merely understanding what the lane is providing you with...no different than any other situation
Much of understanding ball motion or reaction is realizing what a good shot is and simply making adjustments...let the shot provide them with the information needed to react
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Even though the other teams have coaches by title, doesn't mean they have coaches that know what they are doing. Some teams have good coaches like Fresno St. with Ric. Some teams have idiots like Texas A&M when I was coaching there. I have learned a lot since then and could do a much better job now, but I don't think I can ever be as good as Ric or some of the better teams.
I have to agree with this as well.
Giz, if you get the chance, watch the finals of the Music City classic. You'll see some great team bowling, and 2 phenomenal games shot by Nebraska and Vanderbilt. Note where they were playing versus where the other teams were throughout the entire course of the day, let alone the tournament.
To emphasize Nebraska for a bit.. Their coach is the coach I had 20 years ago. He's still running the program there, which produced some great bowlers; two off the top of my head are PWBA champion Brenda (Norman) Mack, Diandra Asbaty, Brenda Edwards, and Kim Straub. I want to say that Machuga came from there as well (was after my time). But it wasn't that they produced that talent; it was there from the word go.
The coaches helped us out a lot with adjustments, as with me, putting together a completely different look than what I was used to doing. From the short number of 300s I've bowled (five), 2 were shot with my B game, with the rest being my A game. To be able to change my equipment, look, and my form (albeit slightly), not only gave me a new line to play, but also helped with others to get them to ball down, and throw a new line that isn't in their comfort zone.
It does help that the coaches should know what they are doing, but it does come down to the bowlers, and their ability to throw good shots. Perhaps at that part, they are too busy worrying about their chants than executing the shot..?
BL.
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It's a reaction shape thing with plastic that gives most of them problems. They still try to turn it into a hockey stick type reaction.
That's how I'm going to have to go about it. If I can also show them how to break down a lane the right way, it will be easier for them to learn how to figure out adjustments. Last summer was the first year for it, and a lot of them had pretty significant problems with adjustment because they'd just start in the middle of the lane and try to swing it or they'd pay too much attention to the "recommended" line. Ours is a higher friction house, so most tougher patterns play a bit differently than they're "supposed" to. They'd blow up the track, and then they couldn't move right because they'd get skid/hook/skid, or if they moved left, they'd quite often miss the track burn, so one shot would miss the headpin right, and the next would miss it left. The guy that ran it last year was trying to teach them about the differences between long, medium, and short patterns and how the oil volumes can make them play and break down, etc., but the kids ended up paying more attention to where the pattern analysis suggested they play at than the reaction they were actually getting, so hopefully we can simplify it this year. We just have house shots around here, so I think he went a bit too fast too quick last year. There's going to have to be quite a lot of foundation work laid on how to interpret what they're seeing first. Saying "I moved 2 and 1 left," is all fine and good, but if they tugged it 2 boards left and are making a move off a bad shot rather than a reaction change . . that's about the stage most of them are at right now. They're all trying hard and anxious to get better though! They want to learn, and that's most of the battle.
Using plastic is merely understanding what the lane is providing you with...no different than any other situation
Much of understanding ball motion or reaction is realizing what a good shot is and simply making adjustments...let the shot provide them with the information needed to react
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Yeah I watched every minute of the whole tournament haha. And yes, I'd say their ball reaction was the best out of anyone's, especially the anchor bowlers for both teams, really impressed with both of them throughout. And on the other hand, there was one girl that I saw who was playing too far right the entire tournament, had a decent amount of hand, but 75% of her shots ended up on the left side of the headpin. If the bowlers are just missing shots, I can handle that. But I couldn't just sit and watch her go brooklyn for 12 solid games without saying anything . .
Even though the other teams have coaches by title, doesn't mean they have coaches that know what they are doing. Some teams have good coaches like Fresno St. with Ric. Some teams have idiots like Texas A&M when I was coaching there. I have learned a lot since then and could do a much better job now, but I don't think I can ever be as good as Ric or some of the better teams.
I have to agree with this as well.
Giz, if you get the chance, watch the finals of the Music City classic. You'll see some great team bowling, and 2 phenomenal games shot by Nebraska and Vanderbilt. Note where they were playing versus where the other teams were throughout the entire course of the day, let alone the tournament.
To emphasize Nebraska for a bit.. Their coach is the coach I had 20 years ago. He's still running the program there, which produced some great bowlers; two off the top of my head are PWBA champion Brenda (Norman) Mack, Diandra Asbaty, Brenda Edwards, and Kim Straub. I want to say that Machuga came from there as well (was after my time). But it wasn't that they produced that talent; it was there from the word go.
The coaches helped us out a lot with adjustments, as with me, putting together a completely different look than what I was used to doing. From the short number of 300s I've bowled (five), 2 were shot with my B game, with the rest being my A game. To be able to change my equipment, look, and my form (albeit slightly), not only gave me a new line to play, but also helped with others to get them to ball down, and throw a new line that isn't in their comfort zone.
It does help that the coaches should know what they are doing, but it does come down to the bowlers, and their ability to throw good shots. Perhaps at that part, they are too busy worrying about their chants than executing the shot..?
BL.
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It's understanding what or how your players see the lane and understanding what the ball is doing...not so much primarily theirs but the teams
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Yeah I watched every minute of the whole tournament haha. And yes, I'd say their ball reaction was the best out of anyone's, especially the anchor bowlers for both teams, really impressed with both of them throughout. And on the other hand, there was one girl that I saw who was playing too far right the entire tournament, had a decent amount of hand, but 75% of her shots ended up on the left side of the headpin. If the bowlers are just missing shots, I can handle that. But I couldn't just sit and watch her go brooklyn for 12 solid games without saying anything . .
I'll buy that.
That's why when I was in collegiates, we always had one or two people extra coming along, because we could have been pulled from the lineup.. or better yet, we took two teams with us. If a bowler was struggling like the above, we'd pull in someone from the 2nds and move them to that team. Unless they would be short for numbers, it's not good coaching at all to let someone stay in the lineup when you know they aren't executing well. Yes, it may tear a bit into their confidence to get pulled, but they also need to take that as a plus to know that that is what they need to work on their next practice session.
Another true story: I struggled after that Mid-States Tournament in St. Louis that was mentioned in the other thread (I loved that tournament!) the first year I went to it. I couldn't pick up a 10 pin to save my life. For a good hour during the next practice session, one of our asst. coaches had me do nothing but shoot the 10 pin, with my main objective being to take the 10 pin off the rack.
That helped me that night, because that was the night where our head coach had us start at one lane, take the 7 and 10 off the rack, then do the same thing down 24 lanes. I was the 4th or 5th one out in 45 minutes. Some of the others took nearly 2 hours, if not longer.
That one night helped me with picking up many a corner pin, let alone 6-7-10, 6-7, and big 4.
BL.
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Gizmo, I am getting a different feeling base on your last few comments. Are you taking over a program?
Ric made a great point. The team needs to try and be self sufficient when it comes to figuring out the lanes. They need to know what they see and what it means. When to change equipment, when to change lines or even when to change loft. But the key is, they don't necessarily need to know what THEIR shot is doing.
When people bowl, they invariably perceive what their shot is doing differently than what is real or perceived by others. Based on what the rest of the team is seeing, a bowler's shot should be predetermined before they step on the lane. The bowler then becomes a robot of sorts and executes their shot. Based on the reaction the rest of the team sees, adjustments can be made for the next shot.
Also, I know Brad said something about switching out players from your B team and such, but review the rules carefully. I don't think this is allowed anymore. Your team consists of as many bowlers as it needs, but you cannot have extras bowling on a different team. Your replacements will have to come in cold.
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No replacements other than the 6 or 7 on your roster not another team
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No replacements other than the 6 or 7 on your roster not another team
Ric, do y'all have A and B teams (varsity / JV) or just one team?
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We carry 2 for the first half...2 mens of 6 or 7 then whittle to one team for the 2nd half and sectionals plus natls (when they make natls of course)
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No, just trying to learn as much as possible. We have a lot of kids in town that are heading off to college soon, going to Jr Gold, or just generally getting more interested in doing more than just league bowling. It would be ignorant to think my way is the only way. I'd like to think that I have quite a bit of knowledge, but knowledge is useless unless you know how to communicate it, and communication is a lot more than just words. I like to take a few things and look at them from every angle possible, even if it's ridiculous, just to get a better grasp on stuff. I'm a big concept guy, I feel like if you can get the CONCEPT of something, you should be able to figure the details out on your own in your own way. But just like anything else, everyone can also get concepts in several different ways. Like surfaces, the math people understand coefficient of friction, surface area, oil viscosity, etc., and some people understand tire analogies. They may not understand or know all the information, but if they get the idea behind it, the information then becomes almost common sense. If the lanes are dry and they can't understand why their Hyper Cell isn't hooking as much as their Vibe, you tell them they're putting snow tires on a stock car, and all the sudden they understand! Then all the technical stuff or "mumbo jumbo" is more easily absorbed.
Gizmo, I am getting a different feeling base on your last few comments. Are you taking over a program?
Ric made a great point. The team needs to try and be self sufficient when it comes to figuring out the lanes. They need to know what they see and what it means. When to change equipment, when to change lines or even when to change loft. But the key is, they don't necessarily need to know what THEIR shot is doing.
When people bowl, they invariably perceive what their shot is doing differently than what is real or perceived by others. Based on what the rest of the team is seeing, a bowler's shot should be predetermined before they step on the lane. The bowler then becomes a robot of sorts and executes their shot. Based on the reaction the rest of the team sees, adjustments can be made for the next shot.
Also, I know Brad said something about switching out players from your B team and such, but review the rules carefully. I don't think this is allowed anymore. Your team consists of as many bowlers as it needs, but you cannot have extras bowling on a different team. Your replacements will have to come in cold.
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Better go east for bowling to be a varsity sport. In the west, is more a club sport.
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Better go east for bowling to be a varsity sport. In the west, is more a club sport.
Unfortunately, I agree with this.
In the Sacramento area, Sacramento State Univ. won't even sponsor a program; yet 20 miles away, Univ. of California-Davis has a team. Next closest are Fresno State (already mentioned), and San Jose State (Tony Reyes was coaching that team).
After that, Long Beach State, California State, Fullerton (Missy Parkin's alma mater), and San Diego State are roughly it. Next closest are Arizona, Arizona State, then further east for the better teams. Unfortunately, basketball, football, and baseball dominate this side of the country.
BL.
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Fresno is a club sport but definitely not treated as one...won the natl title 3 yrs ago
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Fresno is a club sport but definitely not treated as one...won the natl title 3 yrs ago
Really? even though the women's teams are sponsored by the NCAA? it is still a club sport?
Nebraska and Wichita State are definitely not club sports, at least for the women..
BL.
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The women's side of things is very confusing. They have NCAA sanctioned schools and club schools, so they have 2 different championships. So not every school that has a women's bowling team considers it a NCAA sport. And none of the men's teams are NCAA sanctioned. The NCAA teams are considered part of the athletic program and clubs range from a lot of school support to none.
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Many of the women's teams are NCAA to meet Title IX requirements. Some schools don't need that extra women's sport so they don't treat it as an NCAA sport.
I enjoyed my time bowling in college. But for the men, since it is a club sport, I would recommend to potential students to look at a school's academics before I evaluate a bowling program. And if there isn't a team at a school, one can be started. Not easy, but possible. Education should come first.
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I bowled in college for an overall pretty average team. We didn't have a coach at all. Some of the better schools had what appeared to be very good coaching. Like someone said earlier, there is a very large talent gap between the very best and even middle of the road schools.
Well I'd agree here to an extent, but the thing that people seem to be leaving out of these college threads or disregarding is don't these teams have coaches? Yes I realize the age of the kids, yes I realize they're lacking in experience, because a lot of them go into college having never seen a sport pattern before. But isn't that what coaches are for? Do they not exist, or are they not very good?
This is something that happens on tour, in match play, where many of the guys break them down in regards to offense instead of defense...much of the time it gives opponents as much of an advantage instead thinking of a teams strength as opposed to weaker teams
It still comes down to shot making but in college events many of the teams use too much surface too early thus forcing everybody left too quick
Very true here.
But the other thing to think about is the age of the bowlers and their mental game at this time. With the exception of the depth of talent on some of the teams, it is a bit lacking. What I mean by that (and I'll admit it; in my college days I was just as guilty of it myself) is that (it was mentioned earlier, too) the guys would only play their A game, because that was all that they knew. That came down to which ball could outhook the others and pound the pocket. Good story and learning lesson for me here:
Coming straight out of high school, I fell into the same trap that Marshall Holman did in that match against Marc McDowell. Holman was struggling to carry with urethane, while McDowell pounded the pocket with the XCalibur. Same thing happened to me at my first tournament (can't remember the name of it but it was at Dave Soutar's house at the time: NKC Pro Bowl in N. Kansas City). I come out of the gate thinking that I'm good with my Blue and Blue Pearl Hammers...
And get completely blown out of the water by people throwing the XCalibur, Rhino Pro, and Turbo-X. We left that tournament on a Sunday; Monday morning, I pulled $250 together, went straight to my pro shop, and bought both of those. Now, that got me my A game going, but it didn't teach me how or when to ball down and more importantly, ball down and change my look completely; Hence, my B game, where I can play up the line with whichever ball I choose. With the right coaching for me and watching various styles (like those on the Senior tour), I developed that game in college. Did it wonderfully with that Turbo-X, XCalibur, and Nitro/R when it came out (I skipped the Crush/R).
My point: do you see those teams making the right decision with surface adjustments, or their mental game, in knowing when to ball down and square up? I mean, it's harder to power through and create the shot than it is to change your line and adjust to the shot.
Anymore it seems today's bowler tries to blow open a condition too quickly to try & gain an advantage and in the long run creating a tougher condition
Too much alleged strategy used instead of bowling
Exactly.
BL.