Author Topic: Anyone else use just the pads of their fingers (vs first joint)? (Read 3034 times)

Neptune66 · « **on:** March 08, 2009, 06:47:46 AM »

(takes me awhile to get to the point, but I feel the background is important)

Recently I was having trouble getting the fit of a newly purchased [used] ball to match an existing ball's drilling. Seemed ok except for thumbhole being too tight. Went back and instead of a minor tweak, I discovered the hole was much larger than desired the next time I was practicing (at a different house).

Went to the pro-shop there in frustration and it was determined the ball had 1/8 inch forward pitch vs zero that the original ball had. But... I decided to try it with forward pitch so I asked the driller to plug the hole and drill it a smidgen smaller, but leave the pitch unchanged. And at first... I liked it and felt the ball was staying on my hand longer without being too snug. liked it so much I decided to convert another 3 balls over to the new drilling.

First one was a success, but the next two were a disaster. Brought those two to league and was dropping them or nearly dropping them all night. Added a ton of tape and didnt matter...still had the dropsy's. Brought the balls to THAT house's driller and he said that the thumbholes were drilled with reverse pitch, not forward pitch. I wa sjust going to return them to original drilling, but he looked at how I was putting my hand in the ball and at no charge to me offered to measure me from scratch, plug and drill one of my balls and have me evaluate the fit.

At first I liked THAT fit too, and to finally get to the point, he showed me that I wasn't putting my fingers all the way to the first joint. I had been doing this since switching from inserts to no inserts a couple of years ago, and I admit the balls he "converted" from "finger pad" grip to finger joint grip ARE comfortable, and I have more control --- at leats I think I do.

But.... I am also more revolutions challenged than I have ever been (I always was, but not so much over last 2 years), and the balls are acting like plastic balls and coming into the pocket flat. Hardly any kind of angle.

I'm pretty convinced I want to return to my old style of inserting my fingers ALMOST to the first joint, but not quite. It feels normal to me, and I throw the ball with much more authority that way. Not just on the strike balls, but on spares as well.

Does anyone else out there grip the ball this way? And even if you don't, is there anything fundamentally wrong with this method?

The driller will do whatever I ask him to. He has been VERY understanding while I have oscillated back and forth, and still thinks I should try other things before going back to my old fitting, but I am stronly leaning toward returning everything to the old style fit.

Bowled 17 games today split between two balls that are identical (same actual ball) except for the drilling. And there was no question that the old fit felt better to me. I had SOME success with the new grip too, but at this point it almost feels like a conventional drilling would to someone who is accustomed to a fingertip grip.

Doubt I'll have time to comment/reply to all responses, but interested in ALL feedback ----even if you wish to tell me I'm nutz to want to go back to my prevous fitting.

Edited on 3/8/2009 2:50 PM

rdw · « **Reply #1 on:** March 08, 2009, 09:16:03 PM »

I'm no expert, but when I first went to fingertip it was customary to go with a very stretched grip and I only put fingers in to the pads. I went with a lot of reverse 1/4-3/8 back then and developed a very bad habit of grabbing the ball to keep from dropping it. Today I'm at zero and have vacu-grips that I insert all the way to the first joint. Recently I bought a used ball that I just changed the grips and since they weren't vacu-grips the holes were too tight. I started to drop the ball and finally realized that I was only putting my fingers into the pads because the holes are effectively too small. I'm rev challedged also but I think that is because I have problems clearing the thumb due to grabbing the ball too much. I don't think either way is wrong, but if using just the pads causes undue strain on your hand or causes you to grab the ball to hold onto it, I would go with putting your fingers in all the way to the first joint. Just my experience and opinion.

Neptune66 · « **Reply #2 on:** March 08, 2009, 10:06:12 PM »

Everything you're saying makes sense, including the part about the grip being stretched. The first time I hd a ball converted from grips to no grips, it did feel a like a bit of a stretch. But not an uncomfortable one.

In fact....many years ago (way before I removed the inserts and going back even to my conventional grip days) I USED to have problems with Ball Drillers constantly giving me too long of a span to the point where I had to emphasize I wanted a relaxed fit.

Now... fast forward to the present, and I have the opposite problem. Ball feels just fine with my existing fit, and then the driller tells me he's going to relax the span which is too long. I should have said no, cause my span ws just fine ---thank you--- but I WAS having trouble with my thumb getting bigger and smaller, so I thought I'd try it.

Problem wasn't the experiment (of narrowing the span) or doing it to the first ball. Problem was that I foolishly rushed to convert several of my balls to the new fit way too early. Before I collected enough "data" over a longer period of time or greater number of games.

I could see myself being able to throw with either drilling. But my preference is the old fit. And since I want all my equipment to feel about the same, that means I now have to pay to change back about 5 or 6 balls to the way they were and hope that the driller CAN duplicate the other source ball I provide.

JessN16 · « **Reply #3 on:** March 08, 2009, 10:40:04 PM »

Neptune66,

Assuming I'm understanding this all correctly, it sounds like you're in the process of doing what I did about 10 years ago. Currently, I'm in to about the first joint.

When I first started bowling, I was a stretched-span bowler. I barely got half the pads of my fingers in and had to squeeze the ball like crazy to hold it.

I got some great revs on the ball, but I also tore the ends of my fingers up. I was also limited to having to play the lanes fewer ways because I couldn't adjust my tilt and rotation very easily when I needed to. My thumb also changed sizes frequently.

I went through a refit and got a lot shorter in my span, and thought I was fine. But I was still squeezing. My thumb still changed size. I was refitted once again.

My span is now relaxed fingertip. Initially, I did lose some revs but eventually picked them back up. I got more consistent, and I got more versatile. My thumb rarely if ever changes size anymore. My fingers NEVER change size anymore -- when I was stretched out, if I was having to bowl a two-day tournament, the morning of the second day none of my stuff fit.

Do whatever makes you comfortable, but those are my experiences.

Jess

Neptune66 · « **Reply #4 on:** March 09, 2009, 12:12:35 AM »

Hi Jess,

I wrote the lower portion of this first, then realized I spent more time ranting than replying to what you wrote.

I am getting concerned about doing damage with my old drilling, except I don't feel as if I am sqeezing the ball. It feels very comfortable to me. And ... my fingers, even in that drilling, are in farther than what you described as your old fit. I am ALMOST in the first joint.

But it is odd that my thumb does not change size as much with the new drilling. It still changes, but less frequently and requires only 1 or 2 tape adjustments. Not 3 or 4 pieces worth as was sometimes the case.

Still.... I cannot get any kind of reaction out the balls with the new "relaxed" fit. Thought it could be due to increased speed I am able to throw at [using that fit], but even when I slow down the delivery, it's a dull shot. No backend at all.

I dont know for sure that I'm not doing any damage (with old fit), but I would be the first to complain if it felt awkward or uncomfortable. I'm not saying no pain, no gain. I'm saying it's USUALLY very comfortable (except for the thumb issues, and those arent with pain... just comfortable sizing).

written earlier than top portion of this post:

I did tell the driller that I'm planning to go back to the old drilling (and why) and he suggested letting him put the same drilling on a test ball (a relatively aggressive one), but with a more aggressive layout to increase the ball's reaction.

Part of me wants to try it, but most of me just wants to get back what I had. And admittedly, what I had was a bunch of balls with a range of reactions that I enjoyed throwing most of the time, but that sometimes I had a very difficult time getting a consistent/stable fit with in the thumbhole.

My fingers never swelled up, by the way. So the finger holes were always comfortable and they were all the same. In my efforts to solve the thumbhole problem, I now I have an assortment of balls with 3 different fits. Not at all what I intended. And all the balls where I can insert my fingers to the first joint react about the same. Flat... dull... no snap or flip. A gentle arc is all.

Edited on 3/9/2009 0:25 AM

JessN16 · « **Reply #5 on:** March 09, 2009, 12:41:47 AM »

N66,

I understand. I'll also tell you that reaction you're describing is the same as the one I got from my stuff when I first switched.

If you're going to switch, it may be a 3-6 month process until you get comfy with it.

The benefits, for me, are comfort, no more callouses anywhere, no more sore fingers, no thumb swelling problem, better control, better speed control, etc.

When I first started, everything was hitting weak, weak, weak too.

Jess

Neptune66 · « **Reply #6 on:** March 09, 2009, 01:00:25 AM »

That is reassuring.... in a way.

If I knew I could overcome the weakness eventually, I could just postpone the experiment till after the fall-winter season has ended (I do bowl summer leagues too).

One other thing I forgot to mention:

The new fit also included slightly larger, ovalled finger holes.

I didn't ask for that, but the driller recommended it along with the relaxed span. Is it an all or nothing thing? Or could I just miss my smaller finger holes which would provide me a with a snugger feel, and leave the relaxed span in place?

It's not that I'm swimming in the new holes. The ball DOES feel comfy. It just doesn't feel as if I can fire it as hard or fast (or as easily) as before. The most noticeable difference in feeling I get is in the fingers.

In fact...when I was still using inserts, I would constantly oscillate between two sizes. The tighter size gave me more power or revs, but if my fingers swelled, they hurt. The larger size gave me more comfort, but I couldn't get as much on the ball sometimes. When I switched to no-inserts, I left that neuroses behind. ---I thought for good.

Maybe I should ask the driller to plug and redrill the finger holes to smaller size with no ovalling? Then I could still get my fingers in up to the first joint, but would be a more secure fit ----maybe.

It's 1:00am here, so I'll be off for awhile. But will check back.

JessN16 · « **Reply #7 on:** March 09, 2009, 03:03:23 AM »

Several different ways you can go here...

1) Buy a golf glove, cut the thumb out of it, use it while throwing your new ovaled holes. Golf gloves typically add a size or two to your finger size. If your fingers start to swell, take the glove off.

2) Go to inserts. Then you have several different options and softness/hardness scales. You might also try the vacu-grip setup (I never have, so I can't advise).

If you're unsure of what to do, I would wait until your league season is over and then break in your new specs this summer. That's what I did -- I made the change during summer league. I also picked a PBAX league on which to do it -- HA! Nothing like no revs and PBA-compliant shots. And I was also learning how to bowl without a wrist brace at the same time. As you might imagine, I really had fun for awhile.

Jess

Neptune66 · « **Reply #8 on:** March 09, 2009, 06:42:21 AM »

Hmmmm....

I had long ago wondered if bowling without the inserts was somehow more stressful to my hand (though the evidence of the last two years has been to the contrary). Yet it also seems like a step backwards to me to use them again.

Even before you mentioned inserts, I considered putting them back in...at least on one test ball. But I feel liberated in not having to bother with them. And it's not the money, though that's a plus. It's not having to be dependent, plan around them, and all the things associated with them (having a tool and super glue handy for emergency replacment, having a supply on hand, etc.). Non-insert life (bowling life AND real life) is simpler. At least it WAS till a few weeks ago.

The golf glove I admit I had not thought of. It would be a good way to change the feel without changing (again) the drilling. Except I don't think the holes are that much bigger that my fingers would fit with the glove on. Just not as snug as I am accustomed to. Maybe I can cut some pieces of tape up and place them in the holes to make them smaller....temporarily? Seems a pain though.

Which brings me back full circle. I am concerned about "future me" eventually getting pain or discomfort in the fingers if I continue with my current grip. But on the other hand, I have bowled on average (league and a lot of practice) at least 20-30 games a week for almost 2 years now, and never had any pain in my hand or wrist that I associated with bowling.

I have occasionally had some discomfort just behind my thumb, but it usually starts up independently of bowling, and wearing a wrist brace and easing up a little when throwing the ball, helps me get through that. It's not a chronic problem. ----at least I don't think it is...

I AM "listening", though. and do appreciate your input. Especially since you have gone through what I'm going through ----or considering it anyway.

The irony here, is I was buzzing along just fine at my favorite house, but constantly struggling at another. And in my quest to overcome the crazy wet-dryor reverse block or whatever pattern over there, I picked up a used ball to experiment on ---with it's surface !!!!! Nothing else.

Then the fit was a problem and when I THOUGHT I had not only solved that, but found my new fit, I "infected" my arsenal with all these changes in fit. Now... a few weeks later.... I'm screwed up at both houses and unsure of what to do.

This is why I just want to put everything back to where it was. MAYBE leaving ONE ball with the new drilling layout and playing with it over the summer. What I should have done before.

The driller.... when he punched up the new drilling for me on a test ball (free of charge) said I would probably love it or hate it. Unfortunately, life hasn't been that simple. I'm kind of luke-warm about it.

I'm ok with the feel, but not overwhelmed. And a tie goes to the incumbent in most cases, so I'm still seriously leaning towards returning the balls back to their original drillings.

Neptune66 · « **Reply #9 on:** March 09, 2009, 07:19:47 AM »

Just some more thoughts:

First ball converted to relaxed fit was A Black Widow Bite. It was a little less aggressive than it had been, but it had aggression to spare, I guess. Was on medium oil pattern and it matched up perfectly.

Then I changed my Raid, Anger, and Big One over (I chose these, cause all are duplicates...I.e., I have two of each), and the reviews have been mixed.

Anger is a shade less aggressive, but it...like the bite... had apparently some to spare. Have had a couple of good games with it (240's), but most have been disappointing.

Raid and Big One have been disappointments. The Raid is designed to go long and have a decent back-end. It's a little less decent now, and more like a spare ball. Big One has been the biggest disappointer. It's like it's been neutered or something. Nothing much there anymore. I'm accurate with it, but it hits like a wet noodle now.

One more mention:

The Bite's finger holes are not bevelled hardly at all, as is the case with my old drillings. Maybe the bevelling is messing me up some how? Although the balls dont feel loose. But somehow I feel I'm lacking the ability to crank the ball when delivering ("crank" is used here as a relative term. I am not a cranker at all).

:-)

Edited on 3/9/2009 7:20 AM

JessN16 · « **Reply #10 on:** March 09, 2009, 02:55:04 PM »

Beveling/lack thereof can definitely cause an issue in finger holes. I've never noticed a big rev difference in my stuff that has inserts versus the stuff that doesn't, but it's a comfort thing to me to have them.

However, I've got one ball that has finger holes with a lot of bevel (or, more accurately, holes that have been buzzed heavily with a bevel sander and lack an edge). While I can still throw it as good as my non-beveled balls or my insert-equipped balls, it is a different feel.

People want to talk about layout, surface, ball brand, etc. as being the key in ball performance. You give me a ball with a perfect fit and even if it isn't the best option for that particular oil pattern, 99 times out of 100 I'll score better with it than the "perfect" ball that feels like crap.

Jess

Neptune66 · « **Reply #11 on:** March 09, 2009, 08:24:10 PM »

Stopped at the lanes on the way home today to do some "research".

Threw the Bite and although it's not as aggressive as it once was (not from oil absorbtion, but the new drilling), it was fantastically comfortable, and I was able to effortlessly deliver the ball. Consistency was so/so, but part of that is because I actually have more control over the release. More control is a good thing, but in the short run, it's resulting in more mistakes (old drilling only permitted a limited number of hand positioning).

Scores were only medicocre.... 175, then 178, then a 218. But the 218 was a strong finish and I could feel that confidence that the ball was going to hit where I had aimed it and with a relatively good angle to the pocket.

Then... I switched to my Raid, and right off the bat, I noticed something slightly different about the fit. Not sure if it's the size of the thumbhole, or a difference in pitch or beveling, but something is not the same. Threw a semi-decent game, but the control was not there. Every so often, the ball would either slip off my hand as I was delivering it, or feel as if it wanted to. It doesn't APPEAR to be substantially more bevelled than the Raid in either the thumbhole or the fingers, but it FEELs different somehow.

The Bite rests right on my joints, and maybe because it's bevelled less (if in fact that's the case), or maybe cause of a micron of a difference in the span, it feels more secure on my fingers. I feel as if I can impart a lot of spin on it at the point of release. ----Course anyone who knows me, knows I put very little rotation on the ball, but everything is relative. For me ... the ball FEELS very spinnable or rotatable. And the thumb stays in the ball perfectly. No trouble getting out, and no early releases or sensations like that. The Raid feels more precariously perched on my hand.

So...... it may be the drilling is off on the Raid, but maybe just needs a tweak, rather than a major overhaul or a return to my old style drilling. I'm going to bring the Bite and the Raid (and the Anger) to the driller and ask him to find the difference(s).

There are two more existing differences between the Bite and the others that I remember now, as well. The Bite was plugged with "quick-dry" filler, as it was only intended to be an experiment. The others were permanent or long lasting plugs. And as a result:

1) The finger holes and the thumb holes on the Bite were moved to the right of their previous positions (I'm right handed) and the layout is in a different place (on the side of the ball somewhat). The other balls are plugs and redrills in the same spots ...just a shorter span and different pitches from before ----though they're supposed to match the Bite's specs.

2) There is no thumb slug in the Bite.

Also... the Bite is the original drilling, the other ball(s) are copies of it. And the Bite wasn't present when the other balls were drilled. Just the specs from it were used. And all it would take would be one measurement being off, and I would feel it. I'm VERY sensitive to the slightest difference in fit (I agree with your statement about fit being more important than ball surface, etc.).

So.... in a way I am disappointed that I'll need to wait for at least a day or two to see the driller and find out what he has to say (not there Mondays). Then... I'll have to wait some more for any corrections to be determined and be without the balls again for a few days. But am also encouraged enough, and willing, for now, to give the new layout/drilling another chance.

If only all the balls could feel like the Bite does now. I would certainly be willing to wait and invest in some more practice time with the new drilling before reverting to my old/previous one in that case.

Thank you, Jess, for not telling me I was insane to want to go back to my old drilling and allowing me the time to reconsider. Am cautiously optimistic now about the new way. Providing the driller can find the difference and doesn't tell me the two balls are identical in fit. Barring that ---i.e., as long as the other balls CAN be made to fit like the Bite---I'll be happy. The reaction and scores I can work on later.

Neptune (aka Larry)

JessN16 · « **Reply #12 on:** March 09, 2009, 08:40:20 PM »

Larry,

No problem. I called my driller crazy for a month, went back and forth, but finally decided to commit to his advice because I knew what I was going to get with my old way and I felt like I wasn't ever going to get much beyond that level if I didn't do something.

I, too, am very sensitive to changes, particularly thumb-to-middle finger span. Even just 1/16 of an inch makes a difference to me. It may be that if all your copies of your original are giving you a problem, that the problem was actually that the original ball was mismeasured.

Jess

Neptune66 · « **Reply #13 on:** March 09, 2009, 09:55:32 PM »

Jess,

A previous driller once found that a ball I was dropping (or almost was) was off by "only" 1/16th of an inch from another, and commented that it ws insignificant. Wasn't to me, and I insisted he fix it.

If there is any discrepancy between the bite and the copies, I think this driller will find it and then my problem will be solved...eventually. If not, then the driller will think that I am crazy ---though he has been very understanding so far --- and I'll be back to square one.

Anyway... thanks again.

I will try to post back after I get some more info.

Larry

nospareball · « **Reply #14 on:** March 09, 2009, 10:06:38 PM »

With all this talk of dropping the ball or feeling like it's going to drop I'd be more concerned about the thumb fit. How is the thumb fit from ball to ball? Do you use forward or reverse pitch?
--------------------
-Clint

Author Topic: Anyone else use just the pads of their fingers (vs first joint)? (Read 3034 times)

Neptune66

Anyone else use just the pads of their fingers (vs first joint)?

rdw

Re: Anyone else use just the pads of their fingers (vs first joint)?

Neptune66

Re: Anyone else use just the pads of their fingers (vs first joint)?

JessN16

Re: Anyone else use just the pads of their fingers (vs first joint)?

Neptune66

Re: Anyone else use just the pads of their fingers (vs first joint)?

JessN16

Re: Anyone else use just the pads of their fingers (vs first joint)?

Neptune66

Re: Anyone else use just the pads of their fingers (vs first joint)?

JessN16

Re: Anyone else use just the pads of their fingers (vs first joint)?

Neptune66

Re: Anyone else use just the pads of their fingers (vs first joint)?

Neptune66

Re: Anyone else use just the pads of their fingers (vs first joint)?

JessN16

Re: Anyone else use just the pads of their fingers (vs first joint)?

Neptune66

Re: Anyone else use just the pads of their fingers (vs first joint)?

JessN16

Re: Anyone else use just the pads of their fingers (vs first joint)?

Neptune66

Re: Anyone else use just the pads of their fingers (vs first joint)?

nospareball

Re: Anyone else use just the pads of their fingers (vs first joint)?