Post by: LeftE on March 01, 2004, 08:45:29 PM
Now my defention, I understand that they compete in a sport and are paid for it. I.E, professional athlete. However, very few bowlers I have seen resemble anything close to being an athlete of professional caliber.
When I think of professional athletes, I think of boxers, football players, olypimans, ultimate fighters, hell even ice skaters are definetly athletes. I think alot of the forum users would perfer bowlers be thought of as athletes, so that you can get off a long day of sitting on the coutch, lug yourself and your gut down to the bowling alley, drink a couple beers and consider yourself among the same levels of an athlete.
The physical fitness level of a pro bowler is generally low, I would assume, compared with the physical fitness of most other professional sports. I don't buy, well they bowl 20 games a day crap either. I think it is sad to say that this is considered a great marvel of anything. The only thing that would be sore on me from bowling 20 games in a day would be my thumb and or fingers, definetly, and that is from a lack of playing everyday and developing callouses.
I think it really shows how far out of shape an average american is, when they are impressed that somebody could bowl 20, or even 40 games a day. Now I understand that the hand-eye coordinate of a top bowler is extermely high, and is far beyond the reach of normal people. So is that of a professional pool player.
I guess its a reflexion of what is considered an athlete. I tend to be more towards the orginal concept. An athlete should be athletic, which is a term, orginally used to describe the attributes of traditional athletes. When 90 year old Eythl bowls her 200 game, thats nice. I would like to see Eythl hit a baseball more then 50 feet.
Should bowlers be called professional competitors, which is a more fitting term, IMO. Any opinions?
Post by: Alto101 on March 02, 2004, 11:53:34 AM
"A person possessing the natural or acquired traits, such as strength, agility, and endurance, that are necessary for physical exercise or sports, especially those performed in competitive contexts."
A professional bowler possesses the necessary traits that are required to be competitive on tour. However, not all pro bowlers are what I consider to be well rounded athletes as I believe some of them would struggle in other sports. But...we do not require Tiger Woods to be a great tennis player to be considered a professional athlete, we just require him to possess the skills needed to compete with other professional golfers. Therefore, as long as a bowler has the skills to compete on tour, they should be considered a professional athlete.
Anyone agree/disagree with my opinion?
Alto
Edited on 3/2/2004 12:51 PM
Post by: golfnutFL on March 02, 2004, 12:00:56 PM
Post by: jimensminger on March 02, 2004, 12:05:09 PM
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je
Post by: livespive on March 02, 2004, 12:12:16 PM
don't have athetes?
At the pro level the touring pro bowl 30 to 50 games a week
in tournaments, not to mention practice. Without leg strength
and leg endurance you aren't going to make it.
A bowlers legs would be comparable to a long distance runners legs.
Not all of the pros are atheletes, I'll give you that, because not
all of them compete in all of the events, but those that compete in the
majority of the events I would say are atheletes.
If you really want to go that far then baseball doesn't really have atheletes,
Track and field, etc.
All you need for baseball is hand eye coordination, and the ability to spint to first base.
Example:
I had a co worker that thinks like you, so I took him out to practice with me.
he is in much better shape than I was. He rode bike, played racquetball, not to mention I out weighed him by about 75 pounds. We go out, and bowl 10 fast paced games like I do when I goto practice sometimes. Well he ounly made it to game 6 and the next couple of days he was walking with a limp, and he was in shape.
SO while I will agree with you to some point that not all bowlers are atheletes.
Some are.
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Eric T. Spivey, P.E.
Visionary Test Staff Member
Post by: LeftE on March 02, 2004, 12:13:09 PM
As I said professional competitors would be more approprate then professional athlete.
Post by: kendog on March 02, 2004, 12:13:32 PM
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kendog avoids spare shooting at all costs
just throw strikes
Post by: LeftE on March 02, 2004, 12:15:40 PM
That said, I really don't think that golfers are nesscessarly athletes either.
Post by: Ernie McCracken on March 02, 2004, 12:18:45 PM
quote:
I think golfing is probably a trillion times more physical then bowling, so I disagree with that anology. Walking 400 yardsX12, with varying levels of grade is much more challenging.
That said, I really don't think that golfers are nesscessarly athletes either.
400 yardsX12? The hell with that!! Give me a cart!!!!
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Evolutionary. Revolutionary.
Post by: LeftE on March 02, 2004, 12:21:32 PM
in tournaments, not to mention practice. Without leg strength
and leg endurance you aren't going to make it."
I couldn't walk up a flight of stairs with out leg strength or leg endurance.
" Well he ounly made it to game 6 and the next couple of days he was walking with a limp, and he was in shape."
Improper form and sliding can cause alot of twisting in the knee and hip area. Pulling or straining something through improper form is not a real good example.
I.E, I don't write alot with a pen and paper anymore, so when I do, I get forearm cramps, LOL. I guess that means those little 6 year olds in first grade who print all the time time are better athletes then myself?
Post by: livespive on March 02, 2004, 12:22:05 PM
quote:
I think golfing is probably a trillion times more physical then bowling, so I disagree with that anology. Walking 400 yardsX12, with varying levels of grade is much more challenging.
That said, I really don't think that golfers are nesscessarly athletes either.
DOn't you think John Daly would be alot smaller if he was doing all that walking?
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Eric T. Spivey, P.E.
Visionary Test Staff Member
Post by: YeahHossNV on March 02, 2004, 12:23:54 PM
Another problem I have is that league bowlers bowl 3 games of open play at the bowling alley and they say practiced. Well I'm sorry but 3 games is not practice.
I make a living bowling. I bowl around 15 games a day. This is my job. I weight train I eat healthy to make sure I'm in good shape to put food on the table.
The average league bowler doesn't want to bowl for a living. They already have a job and are fairly happy with thier living situation. But what the average league bowler wants or doesn't want shouldn't affect how we think of our professional athletes.
Another way of saying it is that the average golfer doesn't get into shape to play golf so Tiger Woods isn't an athlete because of it. Or for the people who don't think pro golfers are athletes another situation is that the guys who play basketball for fun at the YMCA don't train so that means Michael Jordan shouldn't be considered an athlete.
What shape league bowler is in shouldn't affect what we think of the professionals of our great sport.
Post by: LeftE on March 02, 2004, 12:24:49 PM
Not hardly. Teach a bowler the proper mechanics for long distance running, and let them loose. My guess is after 3-4 miles (assuming they have the endurance to make it that far) there legs would feel exteremly heavy and or burn from latic acid build up.
Reverse the situation and teach a long distance runner how to properly slide, and then tell them to take 5 steps and slide. Wait ten seconds and repeat...
Post by: LeftE on March 02, 2004, 12:27:39 PM
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I think golfing is probably a trillion times more physical then bowling, so I disagree with that anology. Walking 400 yardsX12, with varying levels of grade is much more challenging.
That said, I really don't think that golfers are nesscessarly athletes either.
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DOn't you think John Daly would be alot smaller if he was doing all that walking?
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Eric T. Spivey, P.E.
Visionary Test Staff Member
Nope, some people are naturally fat. Endomorphs. My question never involved what a person looked like in releation to thier athletic performance.
Post by: livespive on March 02, 2004, 12:35:36 PM
quote:
"A bowlers legs would be comparable to a long distance runners legs."
Not hardly. Teach a bowler the proper mechanics for long distance running, and let them loose. My guess is after 3-4 miles (assuming they have the endurance to make it that far) there legs would feel exteremly heavy and or burn from latic acid build up.
Reverse the situation and teach a long distance runner how to properly slide, and then tell them to take 5 steps and slide. Wait ten seconds and repeat...
I would have to differ on that. looking at the legs only they would be compareable (not the same)
""At the pro level the touring pro bowl 30 to 50 games a week
in tournaments, not to mention practice. Without leg strength
and leg endurance you aren't going to make it."
I couldn't walk up a flight of stairs with out leg strength or leg endurance. "
You're right and that is exactly what I am talking about, although we are on a different level than just walking up the stairs.
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Eric T. Spivey, P.E.
Visionary Test Staff Member
Post by: SwiftravenWork on March 02, 2004, 12:37:19 PM
Golf and bowling, IMHO, are skills that are acquired, but not necessarily sports or athletics.
Just my opinion.
Post by: Scolai on March 02, 2004, 12:43:11 PM
quote:
Any opinions?
My first opinion - physical endurance, strength, or the other characteristics you name for an athlete are a natural part of bowling. In a 10 game practice session (for simplicity, let's assume I only get strikes 50% of the time), I will lift more than a ton (2250+/- lbs) and walk nearly a mile (4500+/- feet) while carrying a 15 pound weight in my hands. Leaving out the physical stamina required to maintain balance at the foul line and the mental stamina to get the ball where I want it.
We may not all sport 6-pack abs, but there is definitely an air of athleticism about us.
My second opinion - you need a serious course in English grammar; yours currently blows. On a similar note, what in the world is a "defention"?
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NutIf horse racing is the sport of kings, then surely bowling is a very good sport as well.
Post by: livespive on March 02, 2004, 12:44:46 PM
quote:
quote:
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I think golfing is probably a trillion times more physical then bowling, so I disagree with that anology. Walking 400 yardsX12, with varying levels of grade is much more challenging.
That said, I really don't think that golfers are nesscessarly athletes either.
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DOn't you think John Daly would be alot smaller if he was doing all that walking?
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Eric T. Spivey, P.E.
Visionary Test Staff Member
Nope, some people are naturally fat. Endomorphs. My question never involved what a person looked like in releation to thier athletic performance.
I know what you mean. I myself am one (Endomorphs) I could run and keep up with the skinny kids, played sports all through school. just can't drop
this @$#%@$@#$%$@@##$ weight
Not saying looks had anything to do with it, just used him as an example.
Heck, Bowling must do something Traber disappered for 4-5 years and look at him now lol.
There is an article in an old bowling magazine of mine where Jowdy compared
the bowlers out on tour, and said who was athletic, and who was sub par. It
was interesting reading.
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Eric T. Spivey, P.E.
Visionary Test Staff Member
Post by: golfnutFL on March 02, 2004, 02:49:00 PM
"I make a living bowling. I bowl around 15 games a day. This is my job. I weight train I eat healthy to make sure I'm in good shape to put food on the table."
"I am a 16 year old tweener who averages 209. I throw 15 lb equipment. This is my arsenal....."
The first quote is from your post, the second from your profile. Whazzup with that? In the first quote were you referring to yourself or what you think a professional bowler does?
Post by: Ishmael on March 02, 2004, 04:17:43 PM
quote:
Main Entry: ath·lete
Pronunciation: 'ath-"lEt, ÷'a-th&-"lEt
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Latin athleta, from Greek athlEtEs, from athlein to contend for a prize, from athlon prize, contest
: a person who is trained or skilled in exercises, sports, or games requiring physical strength, agility, or stamina
Why is this so hard to understand?
Post by: cgilyeat on March 02, 2004, 05:15:04 PM
quote:quote:
Main Entry: ath·lete
Pronunciation: 'ath-"lEt, ÷'a-th&-"lEt
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Latin athleta, from Greek athlEtEs, from athlein to contend for a prize, from athlon prize, contest
: a person who is trained or skilled in exercises, sports, or games requiring physical strength, agility, or stamina
Why is this so hard to understand?
It's not. The question needs a one-word answer: YES
Post by: LuckyLefty on March 02, 2004, 05:36:10 PM
I don't know but I think you are younger.
20s to early 30s. Many of your points are well thought out.
However, I think you are younger.
As a guy whose always kept himself moderately fit, probably emphasis on strong over buffed, I'd always thought I could do most anything WELL. Some very good, some almost great, but most physical things well.
Golf I felt I had an advantage over others because of strong legs, and somewhat arms, bowling I definetely feel that when going well I'm using my powerful legs as an important part of my technique and it works to my advantage. As I got older this advantage continued. Well, hell in to my early 40s I was able to do something in bowling some would consider pretty awesome against tons of younger competitors.
Now 5 years later, when I get done with bowling 3 to 6 games a day my legs ache, my feet hurt and I often want a day off.
Maybe this will happen to you!!!
As they say the pins go first!!! I never thought this would happen to me!
Just as my bowling gets going again now I'm turning in to an achy creaky old man. I can't even imagine trying to make it thru a regional. Much less a major style tour stop of 40 games.
REgards,
Luckylefty
PS I just found it interesting that in watching the Match play (golf) this weekend what an important aspect I felt was Tiger's fitness advantage in the final! Amazing that I think many or most would find Tiger an athlete but would say many others aren't. It is tough to bestow the term athlete on a guy that looks like Bob Murphy, vs easy if the guy is built like Tiger or Greg Norman!
OH, PPS, I'd hate to have Bob Murphy read this and spot this because if it involves hands don't bet this guy. Whether it was pool, pitching pennies, throwing a baseball, bowling, golf, marbles, or anything with hand dexterity and money involved they say Ol Murph will ROB YOU!!! Watch out for the stealth athlete!
Post by: LeftE on March 02, 2004, 09:32:01 PM
To anwser some questions, yes I believe all NFL Football players are pro athletes. You are talking the top .1 percent of all football players in the nation whom are in the leauge. Yes the level of athleticism varys greatly, but for the most part, the worst "outta shape" football player is probably 3-4 times more conditioned then the average highschooler, who is likely 2 times more conditioned then the average population.
By the defintions thrown around here, ICQ is correct, professional poker players are indeed professional athletes. This is why I refuse to look at the dictonary version and perfer to use common sense.
I can smoke cigarette and bowl, tell me how that is athletic?
Post by: Scolai on March 02, 2004, 11:15:12 PM
quote:
So lets say I'm a construction worker.. I swing a 3 pound hammer 7000 times a day. So I got you beat because I lift and swing 21,000 total pounds a day. Does that make me an athlete?? No. If you look at it that everyone is an athlete if they do something, then being an athlete is something so generic that it does take away from the guy who can really run 10x miles, bench 400lbs, swim 2km, and ride a bike like Lance Armstrong, play 48 minutes in a Basketball game. Those are the (keyword here) Professional Athletes... Some of us maybe athletic.. but bowlers and golfers have a skill, but don't have a defining subject to say they are athletic..
Sorry, my mistake. I was under the impression we were talking about bowling.
Seems everyone believes that bowling involves no rigorous activity and could not possibly be a sport; therefore bowlers aren't athletes. Bunk. My body is just as conditioned for my sport as a professional lineman's body is conditioned for his sport. It doesn't take away from the athleticism of either one of us.But for some unknown with no profile to waltz in and start calling us PBA members non-athletes is beyond an insult. Who are you again? And what qualifications do you bring to the table that would make us take your word on the matter and believe that, "Gee, he's right. Professional bowlers are not athletes"?
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NutIf horse racing is the sport of kings, then surely bowling is a very good sport as well.
Post by: LeftE on March 03, 2004, 05:56:31 AM
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quote:
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So lets say I'm a construction worker.. I swing a 3 pound hammer 7000 times a day. So I got you beat because I lift and swing 21,000 total pounds a day. Does that make me an athlete?? No. If you look at it that everyone is an athlete if they do something, then being an athlete is something so generic that it does take away from the guy who can really run 10x miles, bench 400lbs, swim 2km, and ride a bike like Lance Armstrong, play 48 minutes in a Basketball game. Those are the (keyword here) Professional Athletes... Some of us maybe athletic.. but bowlers and golfers have a skill, but don't have a defining subject to say they are athletic..
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Sorry, my mistake. I was under the impression we were talking about bowling. Seems everyone believes that bowling involves no rigorous activity and could not possibly be a sport; therefore bowlers aren't athletes. Bunk. My body is just as conditioned for my sport as a professional lineman's body is conditioned for his sport. It doesn't take away from the athleticism of either one of us.
But for some unknown with no profile to waltz in and start calling us PBA members non-athletes is beyond an insult. Who are you again? And what qualifications do you bring to the table that would make us take your word on the matter and believe that, "Gee, he's right. Professional bowlers are not athletes"?
I am not trying to insult you, and no where did I say that I am in anyway "qualified" to make a judgement, or a defining judgement on whether you are an athlete. I am not waltzing in anywhere, I am stating an opinion.
You body is conditioned for your "sport". Fine, I say the level of conditing required to be a bowler is very low, physicaly. I see 83 yearold Eythl role every Tuesday night, and she averages 180. She roles 3 games. Obviously the level of conditing required to do something must not be that high.
Most bowlers are admittedly not atheletic. So how can you have a Professional Athlete who is considered by athletic, when athletic is an adjective used to describe the traits of being an athlete.
As far as IceEmQuicks jack hammer assesment, he was replying to the ridicouls post about how bowling involves lifting more then so much weight and walking a distance of so much. If I go to the gym, bench press 100 pounds for sets of one. Take 10 minute rest between sets and spend all day doing it, by the end of the day I will have benched 14400 pounds in an 18 hour day. More then most bodybuilders, easily. Does that mean I am stronger. If I walk 1 mile every hour, that means I will have covered a distance of 18 miles, further then all but marathon runners. Does that mean I have the conditioning of Carl Lewis?
Face it, bowling is not a highly physical sport. You walk 5-6 steps, roll a 15-16 pound ball then take at minumum a 10-15 second rest. If you feel winded or tired because of this, it only speaks for your lack of conditioning.