Author Topic: Are people confusing carrydown with track oil depletion? (Read 3003 times)

JessN16 · « **on:** November 22, 2009, 10:28:06 AM »

I say yes. The BTM article that showed how little carrydown there is these days compared to the effects of oil depletion in the track area was really eye-opening. I think what we have in most cases is that the ball has already flipped over to the roll axis by the time it gets to the breakpoint due to the track itself being dry. Many people can't see this because they can't pick up the ball roll in their field of vision that quickly.

It's easy enough to test. Next time you have what you think is carrydown, pull out a much weaker-surface ball and throw the same line and see what it tells you is happening.

The only time I see carrydown anymore is if I'm bowling against a team of plastic-throwers and/or I follow a birthday party. And even then, these oil soakers we're throwing today will soak up oil in the carrydown zone just like they will the track area.

Jess

charlest · « **Reply #1 on:** November 22, 2009, 08:03:39 PM »

If you're in an all scratch league or a high powered, high average league,
OR your house oils just before your league bowls, very possibly this is true.

If you follow a women's or mixed handicap league, NO!
If your house oils at 1 PM and does not prevent open bowling on your league's lanes, and you bowl at 6:30 or 9 PM, NO!

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"None are so blind as those who will not see."

baltimora · « **Reply #2 on:** November 22, 2009, 08:25:28 PM »

Sorry for the rhyme but I say Yes Jess. I know I have been guilty of it and have made it worse for myself by "over" balling. I chalk it up to lack of smarts on my part. The less ball you can get away with the better as it also less likely to burn up. Hard lesson for some of us to learn (myself included).
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n00dlejester · « **Reply #3 on:** November 22, 2009, 11:38:10 PM »

Interesting thoughts there.

I have limited knowledge about lane surfaces themselves, but don't surfaces affect how much carrydown there will/won't be? I've noticed that AMF synthetics in my area just break down and never carry down, but one Brunswick center with synthetics have crazy carry down by game 2 then it starts to break down.

I know it has to do with who's bowling and all those other variables, but that's just a generalization I've noticed.
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Proud Supporter of Rob Stone
Obviously, you aren't a golfer.
Some stayed in the foothills, some washed logs like teeth.

the pooh · « **Reply #4 on:** November 22, 2009, 11:54:43 PM »

A couple of houses that I bowl at definitely do get carry down. It's easy to verify with management's OK,walk past the oil length and you can see many dots and sometimes streaks of oil where there should be none. Often, all the way to the pins.These are picked up from the front of the lanes and
deposited to the back by the tracks on the balls. Carry down is most assuredly, alive and well! At least in some centers.

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the pooh

TDC57 · « **Reply #5 on:** November 22, 2009, 11:55:43 PM »

I bowl at a AMF/Qubica synthetic house and yes we see carrydown. I thought at first it may be rollout so I pulled out my TI-Pearl Messenger and it whistled straight down the lane without a wrinkle. I then went back to what I was using and played more direct and stayed near the pocket until the lanes open back up around the 3rd game.

kmanestor22 · « **Reply #6 on:** November 23, 2009, 06:03:42 AM »

quote:
A couple of houses that I bowl at definitely do get carry down. It's easy to verify with management's OK,walk past the oil length and you can see many dots and sometimes streaks of oil where there should be none. Often, all the way to the pins.These are picked up from the front of the lanes and
deposited to the back by the tracks on the balls. Carry down is most assuredly, alive and well! At least in some centers.
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the pooh

If there's oil coming back on the ball, there is streaks down the lane. It's just common sense. Looks can be deceiving. Just because you see streaks, that doesn't mean there will be a huge effect on the ball.
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Where is the bait? I'm goin' to jail!!! - Chocolate GAYzer

charlest · « **Reply #7 on:** November 23, 2009, 06:33:06 AM »

quote:
Interesting thoughts there.

I have limited knowledge about lane surfaces themselves, but don''t surfaces affect how much carrydown there will/won''t be? I''ve noticed that AMF synthetics in my area just break down and never carry down, but one Brunswick center with synthetics have crazy carry down by game 2 then it starts to break down.

I know it has to do with who''s bowling and all those other variables, but that''s just a generalization I''ve noticed.
--------------------
Proud Supporter of Rob Stone
Obviously, you aren''t a golfer.
Some stayed in the foothills, some washed logs like teeth.

Unless you can show me that HPL (AMF''s usual synthetic. I believe they have a new one now too)) actually absorbs the oil, I have to believe that it has more to do with the types of oil being used and the way bowlers bowl with the type of ball they use, than with the surfaces, Steve. All surfaces can have carrydown: solid synthetics, synthetic overlays, and wood. Some types of oil will actually prevent or inhibit carrydown. I wish I knew how.
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"None are so blind as those who will not see."

Edited on 11/23/2009 7:23 PM

LaneHammer20 · « **Reply #8 on:** November 23, 2009, 06:57:56 AM »

If the pros believe in carrydown then I believe in carrydown. I know one my my league nights have a wet dry shot, and second game is you are using a shiny piece i will definitly be affected by the carrydown, moves right are an option, but I prefer to go to a unpolished stronger pearl. That works pretty good.
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What is sandbagging???

JustRico · « **Reply #9 on:** November 23, 2009, 07:14:05 AM »

When a bowling ball is traveling down the lane, it has to do one thing for it to react properly...It has to slow down. If a bowling ball does not or is allowed to slow down, it will not be able to change direction. It can't. It will either continue to slide or skid out, giving the look that it is straightening out or even fading away from the lateral direction it was traveling.
When most bowler's see what they perceive as carrydown, most of the time the bowler does not have the correct bowling ball in their hands. It takes very little oil in the rreaction area of the lane to cause the reaction to be altered.
If the ball decelerates in the front part of the lane, by the time it sees friction, any amount of conditioner will effect the motion or 'push' it off line.
The amount of conditioner that travels down the lane is minimal. But when a ball is traveling on fresh surface, this amount of conditioner will or can effect it.
Different synthetic surfaces have different friction levels. AMF is generally the highest potential and Pro Anvil lane is the lowest. If oil dissipates on a high friction surface, generally it makes the lane appear as overreacting. On a lower friction surface, it gives the perception of overskidding. As well as, oils travels on the lane surface differently, some dissipating entirely or staying on the bowling ball surface. Many have different additives which effect how much the ball stays on top on the oil or cuts through it.
Generally the bowler uses too much surface on most conditions.
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Formerly BrunsRico

Buzzhead · « **Reply #10 on:** November 23, 2009, 09:12:30 AM »

http://bowlingknowledge.info/images/stories/slowinski_oct_for_slowinski.pdf

I read this and it makes a lot of sense, Jess I am thinking you found this too.

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FAILURE IS FEEDBACK. AND FEEDBACK IS THE BREAKFAST OF CHAMPIONS THAT GOT DIGESTED!

Ten pin?

?? Where?? I throw a BUZZSAW there is NUTTIN left on the deck...

Proud MEMBER of the FOS!!
Member of the FOS, if there happens to be a 9 pin standing just toss a saw and cut it down~~!

JessN16 · « **Reply #11 on:** November 23, 2009, 06:12:35 PM »

quote:
http://bowlingknowledge.info/images/stories/slowinski_oct_for_slowinski.pdf

I read this and it makes a lot of sense, Jess I am thinking you found this too.

--------------------
FAILURE IS FEEDBACK. AND FEEDBACK IS THE BREAKFAST OF CHAMPIONS THAT GOT DIGESTED!

Ten pin??? Where?? I throw a BUZZSAW there is NUTTIN left on the deck...

Proud MEMBER of the FOS!!
Member of the FOS, if there happens to be a 9 pin standing just toss a saw and cut it down~~!

That's the one I'm referring to. I was somewhat skeptical of it until I started going down the lane after league and noticing what the pattern looked like downlane. Pretty much exactly what it looks like in Slowinski's graph.

We're on HPLs. One of the misconceptions about synthetics seems to be that they can't soak up oil. But that's not relevant. What's relevant is whether the balls themselves are soaking up the oil, and they are.

The carrydown trails on our HPLs only go a short ways past the end of the pattern, and there's not much of them to really see.

Jess

charlest · « **Reply #12 on:** November 23, 2009, 06:26:53 PM »

Jess,

I first saw Slowinski's article in BTM several months back. I tried to write him to reply via his email, similarly to my initial reply above, but it got bounced back.

I still stick with my original IFs above. Carrydown definitely exists but is not always the cause of the problem you/we see.
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"None are so blind as those who will not see."

JessN16 · « **Reply #13 on:** November 23, 2009, 08:34:55 PM »

quote:
Jess,

I first saw Slowinski's article in BTM several months back. I tried to write him to reply via his email, similarly to my initial reply above, but it got bounced back.

I still stick with my original IFs above. Carrydown definitely exists but is not always the cause of the problem you/we see.
--------------------
"None are so blind as those who will not see."

Yeah, it definitely still exists, especially in the circumstances I was referring to (i.e., following a birthday party, or a plastic-heavy league). Our scratch league does this thing every night where we draw tickets and the ticket winner gets to win a certain amount of money if he strikes. We use the breakdown pair for that particular promotion.

Well, one night the breakdown pair just happened to be the pair that 8 women using plastic had been bowling on for the mixed league that preceded our scratch league. Four ticket winners got their shot and not a one of them hit the head pin. We had three washouts and a 1-2-4 left on that pair. There was more oil at the back than the front.

Jess

charlest · « **Reply #14 on:** November 23, 2009, 08:56:28 PM »

Jess,

Would have paid money to see that. Been thru it so I know the look on their faces must have been priceless! (Not funny, but oh, so funny!)
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"None are so blind as those who will not see."

Author Topic: Are people confusing carrydown with track oil depletion? (Read 3003 times)

JessN16

Are people confusing carrydown with track oil depletion?

charlest

Re: Are people confusing carrydown with track oil depletion?

baltimora

Re: Are people confusing carrydown with track oil depletion?

n00dlejester

Re: Are people confusing carrydown with track oil depletion?

the pooh

Re: Are people confusing carrydown with track oil depletion?

TDC57

Re: Are people confusing carrydown with track oil depletion?

kmanestor22

Re: Are people confusing carrydown with track oil depletion?

charlest

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LaneHammer20

Re: Are people confusing carrydown with track oil depletion?

JustRico

Re: Are people confusing carrydown with track oil depletion?

Buzzhead

Re: Are people confusing carrydown with track oil depletion?

JessN16

Re: Are people confusing carrydown with track oil depletion?

charlest

Re: Are people confusing carrydown with track oil depletion?

JessN16

Re: Are people confusing carrydown with track oil depletion?

charlest

Re: Are people confusing carrydown with track oil depletion?