Author Topic: Are the Top Bowlers Just Selfish? (Read 11020 times)

txbowler · « **on:** January 08, 2010, 02:13:12 AM »

Why is it that most of the posts I read "seem" to come across as a bowler who only cares about himself/herself or their class of bowler?

Bowlers want tougher conditions. Don''t care that it could drive away a majority of the non-200 average bowlers.

Bowlers want to do away with HDCP (or reduce it). Don''t care that it would drive away a majority of the non-200 average bowlers.

Why does the 10% of bowlers who average above 200 feel they deserve to rule bowling while the 90% who don''t actually bring in 8 times more money to the centers and USBC that make the rules?

Are we all that arrogant?

Does it really bruise your ego that much when Joe "beer drinking", Non-practicing" Nobody beats you with his HDCP and easy lanes conditions in your weekly league, bracket or tournament?

Are we all a bunch of babies?

Edited on 1/8/2010 11:14 AM

9andaWiggle · « **Reply #1 on:** January 08, 2010, 11:14:23 AM »

I think you're making a false assumption about 200 avg bowlers wanting tougher conditions. 99% of them would cry and quit too if they had to earn their scores.

No, I think the minority that wants tougher conditions (myself included) are simply bored with the house shot. We wouldn't gripe as much if we could find enough people with the balls to show up and keep a scratch, tough condition league going. That's my main beef - nobody wants a challenge. And don't give me the "Use the wrong ball for the condition" BS either. I've done that, and it's still not the same.

The game should be about figuring out the condition and making great shots and adjustments to overcome the condition, not about purposely trying to find a line that you can't score on and using it instead.

But like you said, 90% of bowlers are lazy, don't want a challenge, and could care less whether they actually improve their game or not since they'll be given freebies to allow them to artificially win, so it is what it is. Soon enough, the 10% will quit bowling and take up golf and the recreatinal bowler will be all that's left. Then they'll install ticket dispensers on the ball returns and you'll be able to save up your tickets during league and turn them in for a free keychain or if you have a really good night, maybe a small stuffed animal.

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livespive · « **Reply #2 on:** January 08, 2010, 11:19:08 AM »

+1 9~

I am an under 200 avg bowler, and I want tougher conditions lol.
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Edited on 1/8/2010 12:19 PM

MC · « **Reply #3 on:** January 08, 2010, 11:48:52 AM »

I agree with both of the previous posts. I think a lot of the 200+ avg bowlers would find out that they really are 180+ bowlers when the conditions toughen up. That happened at my usually house. The loudest uproar was from the 200-205 avg bowlers that were avg in the 170-180 range. So guess what happened..... the house tweeked the pattern and scores are back up again.
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Uncle Crusty · « **Reply #4 on:** January 08, 2010, 12:00:47 PM »

quote:
Why is it that most of the posts I read "seem" to come across as a bowler who only cares about himself/herself or their class of bowler?

Bowlers want tougher conditions. Don''t care that it could drive away a majority of the non-200 average bowlers.

Bowlers want to do away with HDCP (or reduce it). Don''t care that it would drive away a majority of the non-200 average bowlers.

Why does the 10% of bowlers who average above 200 feel they deserve to rule bowling while the 90% who don''t actually bring in 8 times more money to the centers and USBC that make the rules?

Are we all that arrogant?

Does it really bruise your ego that much when Joe "beer drinking", Non-practicing" Nobody beats you with his HDCP and easy lanes conditions in your weekly league, bracket or tournament?

Are we all a bunch of babies?

I completely agree with you, although you perhaps overexaggerate the selfishness aspect. Despite the legions of "purists" that cry for tougher conditions across the board, that is an inherently awful idea. Sure, 10% of bowlers may want tough conditions, but the other 90% just want to show up to league once a week, average 180-200, have fun, and not feel like they need a miracle to shoot 600. And honestly, I don't blame them. To these people, a THS isn't dead easy, otherwise they'd be averaging 230 like the upper-echelon players. I grow tired of people complaining about needing to "earn it" when 90% of league bowlers need to bowl well (at least by their standards) to shoot 200.

So assume you put out tough conditions across the board. A tenth of the bowling population would be thrilled, and the other 90% would be miserable. Their scores would plummet and league would no longer be enjoyable for them. Then they'll quit in pursuit of other activities, causing USBC membership to drop substantially. I would hardly call turning people off to the sport in an effort to make it more of a challenge "saving the game's integrity."

In my opinion, that's the point of sport bowling. If you want to be challenged, bowl a sport league. But don't expect everyone else to want a challenge (and need a challenge in the opinion of the "purists") because you do. Let people bowl THS league and enjoy themselves, don't ridicule them because bowling for them is more of a recreational activity than a lifestyle.

I bowl sport league myself because I personally want the challenge, but everyone deserves the right to choose for themselves. Not to mention I've always felt the cream will rise to the top, regardless of what's laid out. I love the 195 average bowlers that feel they'll still average 195 on sport patterns while the upper-level players will drop to their level. Doesn't work that way (for the most part), the best will always be the best.

Just my $0.02.
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9andaWiggle · « **Reply #5 on:** January 08, 2010, 12:29:17 PM »

quote:
I bowl sport league myself because I personally want the challenge, but everyone deserves the right to choose for themselves. Not to mention I've always felt the cream will rise to the top, regardless of what's laid out. I love the 195 average bowlers that feel they'll still average 195 on sport patterns while the upper-level players will drop to their level. Doesn't work that way (for the most part), the best will always be the best.

I agree with you about the cream rising to the top in the long run.

Unfortunately, unless you have a couple lanes in your basement, most places in the country DO NOT have a choice. You bowl on cake or you don't bowl. I don't fault the center owners, they can't afford to be open for the 3 guys that actually show up.

As for struggling to shoot 600 It's a lot more satisfying to be one of 5 guys that shoot 600 on a tough pattern than it is to be one of 50 to shoot 700 on an easy pattern. It's much more rewarding to make good shots on a tough condition and earn a 600 than it is to be all over the place on the THS and be given 700.

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livespive · « **Reply #6 on:** January 08, 2010, 12:40:44 PM »

quote:
quote:
I bowl sport league myself because I personally want the challenge, but everyone deserves the right to choose for themselves. Not to mention I've always felt the cream will rise to the top, regardless of what's laid out. I love the 195 average bowlers that feel they'll still average 195 on sport patterns while the upper-level players will drop to their level. Doesn't work that way (for the most part), the best will always be the best.

I agree with you about the cream rising to the top in the long run.

Unfortunately, unless you have a couple lanes in your basement, most places in the country DO NOT have a choice. You bowl on cake or you don't bowl. I don't fault the center owners, they can't afford to be open for the 3 guys that actually show up.

As for struggling to shoot 600 It's a lot more satisfying to be one of 5 guys that shoot 600 on a tough pattern than it is to be one of 50 to shoot 700 on an easy pattern. It's much more rewarding to make good shots on a tough condition and earn a 600 than it is to be all over the place on the THS and be given 700.

--------------------
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Cyberspace Sheep Lover

You can't motorboat a personality

+1 9~

I bowled in a sports shot league once but I had to drive to Dayton, Oh from Lima
(about 1 hr 45 mins) to do it. I was looking for the tougher shot and loved the challenge, but did love the drive lol.

I didn't mind getting beat up on the lanes, because I was learning something.
--------------------
Eric T. Spivey, P.E.
Visionary Test Staff Member, and originator of The Livespive Leverage 3:15Â° drill

http://www.visionarybowling.com
http://www.maysbowlingandbilliards.com
Ball Reviews FAQ
BR.com search hack: http://www.bowling-info.com/Search.html

Archived Bowlingballreview.com site:
http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://WWW.BOWLINGBALLREVIEWS.COM

RIP THONGPRINCESS AND SAWBONES

LotsaBalls · « **Reply #7 on:** January 08, 2010, 12:48:25 PM »

I think the amount of handicap is getting out of hand. In my city the norm is 90% of 240, there are a handful of bowlers here that average 230-240 myself included. Is it right that someone getting NO handicap shoots 260-270 and the 180 average guy catches a break and throws 3-4 in a row for 225 and beats that guy. In my opinion you are being penalized for being good. Worse yet the sandbaggers you constantly have to deal with. I now guys that were 220 when we were 15 bowling in juniors and now bowl 1 league and average 190 and they are at every handicap tourney in town.

cheech · « **Reply #8 on:** January 08, 2010, 01:06:44 PM »

handicapp is the real issue. especially for tournament bowlers. they should make all tournaments scratch but have different level of scratch. like tournaments could advertise for one division of 180-210 and another division for 211+
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renaissanceman517kak · « **Reply #9 on:** January 08, 2010, 01:28:25 PM »

quote:
Are we all a bunch of babies?

YUP

Even if some of your concerns are valid, you still behave like babies about it...

txbowler · « **Reply #10 on:** January 08, 2010, 01:29:02 PM »

Cheech,

I have a question for you. You say make it scratch for 211+. Down here in Texas, if there is decent $$$, and it's scratch, you are going have to beat Chris Barnes, Wes Malott, Derek Eoff, Steve Klopken (sp), Chris Johnson, DJ Archer, Dino Castillo, David Anthony, Rick Lawrence, and a bunch of other really good bowlers.

Now some of you will say shoe up and tackle the challenge. But how many of you are going to drop $200 entry fee + expenses every tournament when odds are one of the above will beat you. Sure, you can improve and learn and one day you might win, but those are expensive lessons.

The 190-210 average bowler faces the same challenges bowling against a 220 average bowler that a 215 bowler faces bowling Mes Malott and Chris Barnes. Odds are they will lose.

HDCP means they will lose less often.

If you are a 200 average bowler, bowling against a 170 average bowler, and you each bowl 10 games heads up over the course of a season. ODDS ARE you will beat the 170 average bowler and his HDCP 8 out of 10 games. (80% HDCP table)

But you know what, if the one game he does beat you is in the championship of a tournament for $5,000, you will feel that HDCP robbed you. Even though you beat him every other time you bowled him.

Uncle Crusty · « **Reply #11 on:** January 08, 2010, 01:46:14 PM »

quote:
quote:
Are we all a bunch of babies?

YUP

Even if some of your concerns are valid, you still behave like babies about it...

No offense, but I don't think you have much room to talk seeing how you and all the political folk here at BR debate matters...
--------------------
"Nobody in the game of football should be called a genius. A genius is somebody like Norman Einstein."

-Broadcasting Extraordinaire and Mensa Member Joe Theismann

renaissanceman517kak · « **Reply #12 on:** January 08, 2010, 01:54:11 PM »

quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Are we all a bunch of babies?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

YUP

Even if some of your concerns are valid, you still behave like babies about it...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

No offense, but I don't think you have much room to talk seeing how you and all the political folk here at BR debate matters...

I would respond if what you just said made any sense to me...

9andaWiggle · « **Reply #13 on:** January 08, 2010, 02:00:42 PM »

quote:
Cheech,

I have a question for you. You say make it scratch for 211+. Down here in Texas, if there is decent $$$, and it's scratch, you are going have to beat Chris Barnes, Wes Malott, Derek Eoff, Steve Klopken (sp), Chris Johnson, DJ Archer, Dino Castillo, David Anthony, Rick Lawrence, and a bunch of other really good bowlers.

Now some of you will say shoe up and tackle the challenge. But how many of you are going to drop $200 entry fee + expenses every tournament when odds are one of the above will beat you. Sure, you can improve and learn and one day you might win, but those are expensive lessons.

The 190-210 average bowler faces the same challenges bowling against a 220 average bowler that a 215 bowler faces bowling Mes Malott and Chris Barnes. Odds are they will lose.

HDCP means they will lose less often.

If you are a 200 average bowler, bowling against a 170 average bowler, and you each bowl 10 games heads up over the course of a season. ODDS ARE you will beat the 170 average bowler and his HDCP 8 out of 10 games. (80% HDCP table)

But you know what, if the one game he does beat you is in the championship of a tournament for $5,000, you will feel that HDCP robbed you. Even though you beat him every other time you bowled him.

I see where you're coming from, but entering a tournament isn't about having a level playing field, IMO. You sign up and plop your money down and may the best bowler win. My personal opinion is that tournaments should be scratch. I guess the difference one could argue is the matter of allowing a Professional athlete into a tournament of non-professionals? You don't see Phil Mickelson beating up the hackers at the local golf clubs, but on the other hand, how many other "sports" allow an amateur participant to go head to head with the pros?

Wouldn't bother me. If I can average enough to get into that top tier bracket - wherever the bar is set, I should be man enough to accept that I will be up against players that are of top-tier experience and know that I will have to be flawless in my perfoamance to have a shot at the title. That is competition. One shouldn't be guaranteed a chance to win by being given a crutch to help them compete for the win, rather one must hone their game and excel in the heat of battle to earn the win.

--------------------
9~

Internet Tough Guy

Cyberspace Sheep Lover

You can't motorboat a personality

Uncle Crusty · « **Reply #14 on:** January 08, 2010, 02:30:09 PM »

quote:
I would respond if what you just said made any sense to me...

Then let me break it down for you:

- "No offense,": I'm not trying to be mean, but...

- "but I don't think you have much room to talk": What I'm saying here is you shouldn't lecture us here because it's slightly hypocritical. Why? I'll get to that.

- "seeing how": This is synonymous with "taking into account how." Either one works. There are also many other possibilities, but "seeing how" was shorter.

- "you and all the political folk here at BR": This little phrase is the subject of the sentence. It includes you and all of the other people on this website that like to argue politics with insults and attacks as opposed to logic and cordiality. For the record, "folk" is an old-school term for people, and political is the adjective describing their subject of choice.

- "debate matters...": "Matters" is a term describing, news, events, people, etc. If you'd like, I can use it in another sentence.

I hope that helps.
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"Nobody in the game of football should be called a genius. A genius is somebody like Norman Einstein."

-Broadcasting Extraordinaire and Mensa Member Joe Theismann

Author Topic: Are the Top Bowlers Just Selfish? (Read 11020 times)

txbowler

Are the Top Bowlers Just Selfish?

9andaWiggle

Re: Are the Top Bowlers Just Selfish?

livespive

Re: Are the Top Bowlers Just Selfish?

MC

Re: Are the Top Bowlers Just Selfish?

Uncle Crusty

Re: Are the Top Bowlers Just Selfish?

9andaWiggle

Re: Are the Top Bowlers Just Selfish?

livespive

Re: Are the Top Bowlers Just Selfish?

LotsaBalls

Re: Are the Top Bowlers Just Selfish?

cheech

Re: Are the Top Bowlers Just Selfish?

renaissanceman517kak

Re: Are the Top Bowlers Just Selfish?

txbowler

Re: Are the Top Bowlers Just Selfish?

Uncle Crusty

Re: Are the Top Bowlers Just Selfish?

renaissanceman517kak

Re: Are the Top Bowlers Just Selfish?

9andaWiggle

Re: Are the Top Bowlers Just Selfish?

Uncle Crusty

Re: Are the Top Bowlers Just Selfish?