Author Topic: Are the Top Bowlers Just Selfish? (Read 11022 times)

txbowler · « **on:** January 08, 2010, 02:13:12 AM »

Why is it that most of the posts I read "seem" to come across as a bowler who only cares about himself/herself or their class of bowler?

Bowlers want tougher conditions. Don''t care that it could drive away a majority of the non-200 average bowlers.

Bowlers want to do away with HDCP (or reduce it). Don''t care that it would drive away a majority of the non-200 average bowlers.

Why does the 10% of bowlers who average above 200 feel they deserve to rule bowling while the 90% who don''t actually bring in 8 times more money to the centers and USBC that make the rules?

Are we all that arrogant?

Does it really bruise your ego that much when Joe "beer drinking", Non-practicing" Nobody beats you with his HDCP and easy lanes conditions in your weekly league, bracket or tournament?

Are we all a bunch of babies?

Edited on 1/8/2010 11:14 AM

cheech · « **Reply #31 on:** January 08, 2010, 03:47:08 PM »

quote:
Cheech,

I have a question for you. You say make it scratch for 211+. Down here in Texas, if there is decent $$$, and it's scratch, you are going have to beat Chris Barnes, Wes Malott, Derek Eoff, Steve Klopken (sp), Chris Johnson, DJ Archer, Dino Castillo, David Anthony, Rick Lawrence, and a bunch of other really good bowlers.

Now some of you will say shoe up and tackle the challenge. But how many of you are going to drop $200 entry fee + expenses every tournament when odds are one of the above will beat you. Sure, you can improve and learn and one day you might win, but those are expensive lessons.

The 190-210 average bowler faces the same challenges bowling against a 220 average bowler that a 215 bowler faces bowling Mes Malott and Chris Barnes. Odds are they will lose.

HDCP means they will lose less often.

If you are a 200 average bowler, bowling against a 170 average bowler, and you each bowl 10 games heads up over the course of a season. ODDS ARE you will beat the 170 average bowler and his HDCP 8 out of 10 games. (80% HDCP table)

But you know what, if the one game he does beat you is in the championship of a tournament for $5,000, you will feel that HDCP robbed you. Even though you beat him every other time you bowled him.

people have a misconception about success. some people think that the only way they are successful in bowling is to win the event. why cant you be happy when you cash and profit. sure you dont get the title but its the money everyone is bowling for. i guarantee that if a tournament was only for the title then not many people would show up because its "pointless" and your "not competing for anything" i go into every tournament thinking i have a shot to win but in the end i know i probably wont. i do however expect to cash in every tournament.
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EagleHunter · « **Reply #32 on:** January 08, 2010, 03:49:42 PM »

quote:
why should USBC bring the challenge to you when 90% of other league bowlers don't want it?

The answer is simple...because bowling is a SPORT. And sports, by nature are not easy. They are meant to be challenging.

In addition, the only way to measure achievement in bowling is by score. Therefore the only way for bowling to be considered a sport is by having scoring levels that TRULY represent the TALENT level of the participant.

Well, scoring is relative to the center and condition put out. Sure, but whether you like it or not, everything related to SPORT concerns how a participant relates to the professionals. If you can't hit a 90-mph fastball 350ft, then you probably aren't good enough for MLB. If you're small and can't run fast, the NFL probably isn't for you.

The talent levels for all sports are defined. That is not the case in bowling. That is what needs to be corrected.

mainzer · « **Reply #33 on:** January 08, 2010, 04:24:24 PM »

quote:
quote:
why should USBC bring the challenge to you when 90% of other league bowlers don't want it?

The answer is simple...because bowling is a SPORT. And sports, by nature are not easy. They are meant to be challenging.

In addition, the only way to measure achievement in bowling is by score. Therefore the only way for bowling to be considered a sport is by having scoring levels that TRULY represent the TALENT level of the participant.

Well, scoring is relative to the center and condition put out. Sure, but whether you like it or not, everything related to SPORT concerns how a participant relates to the professionals. If you can't hit a 90-mph fastball 350ft, then you probably aren't good enough for MLB. If you're small and can't run fast, the NFL probably isn't for you.

The talent levels for all sports are defined. That is not the case in bowling. That is what needs to be corrected.

+1 Very good post. Good thing to remeber this is a Sport, Sport means you Will be challenged.
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ToiletLogCore · « **Reply #34 on:** January 08, 2010, 05:33:26 PM »

quote:
quote:
why should USBC bring the challenge to you when 90% of other league bowlers don't want it?

The answer is simple...because bowling is a SPORT. And sports, by nature are not easy. They are meant to be challenging.

In addition, the only way to measure achievement in bowling is by score. Therefore the only way for bowling to be considered a sport is by having scoring levels that TRULY represent the TALENT level of the participant.

Well, scoring is relative to the center and condition put out. Sure, but whether you like it or not, everything related to SPORT concerns how a participant relates to the professionals. If you can't hit a 90-mph fastball 350ft, then you probably aren't good enough for MLB. If you're small and can't run fast, the NFL probably isn't for you.

The talent levels for all sports are defined. That is not the case in bowling. That is what needs to be corrected.

The biggest issue and disagreement I have here is that League Bowling is not the sport. It is recreation and that is what 90% of people consider it. Just like the Thursday night Golf League is just recreation. You can't go changing this, because you will lose a lot of participation. Instead of guys bowling 3-4 leagues a week they will bowl 1 and find something else to do to wind down after a long day of work. Its not the league bowling that needs to be changed.

The SPORT of which you talk is in the competition of tournaments and action bowling. You still need to allow people to choose what they bowl on. Tournaments allow this. They allow for the higher competition. Why is it that all these people that preach of "making em tougher" don't set out to start up local tournaments. If you want it do something about it. Its the competition aspect of bowling that needs to be re-built and changed not the league. There needs to be more support for the tour so these guys have something to bowl for instead of needing to bowl Regionals and other local tournaments and such in the offseason.

And I do think talent levels are defined. It may not seem that it with the way guys talk, but if they actually thought they were as good as the pros, they'd be out there every week competing against them.
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EagleHunter · « **Reply #35 on:** January 08, 2010, 05:49:51 PM »

quote:
The biggest issue and disagreement I have here is that League Bowling is not the sport. It is recreation and that is what 90% of people consider it. Just like the Thursday night Golf League is just recreation. You can''''t go changing this, because you will lose a lot of participation. Instead of guys bowling 3-4 leagues a week they will bowl 1 and find something else to do to wind down after a long day of work. Its not the league bowling that needs to be changed.

The SPORT of which you talk is in the competition of tournaments and action bowling. You still need to allow people to choose what they bowl on. Tournaments allow this. They allow for the higher competition. Why is it that all these people that preach of "making em tougher" don''''t set out to start up local tournaments. If you want it do something about it. Its the competition aspect of bowling that needs to be re-built and changed not the league. There needs to be more support for the tour so these guys have something to bowl for instead of needing to bowl Regionals and other local tournaments and such in the offseason.

And I do think talent levels are defined. It may not seem that it with the way guys talk, but if they actually thought they were as good as the pros, they''''d be out there every week competing against them.

Sorry, I''ll have to disagree.

Using Wikipedia as my source...

Sport is an activity that is governed by a set of rules or customs and often engaged in competitively.

Recreation or fun is the expenditure of time in a manner designed for therapeutic refreshment of one''''s body or mind.

If a league is certified, then it is part of the sport. USBC is the national governing body of the SPORT of bowling. If you are a part of USBC, you are a part of the sport.

I''ll also have to disagree about talent levels being defined. Bowlers, especially the FIGJAMs, most certainly would try to bowl on the professional tour...IF the money was there. If the money was like it was on the PGA tour, then every FIGJAM in the country would be trying for the tour. Money is the sole reason that there aren''''t more bowlers on the PBA tour.

Edited on 1/8/2010 6:52 PM

Edited on 1/8/2010 6:52 PM

tc300 · « **Reply #36 on:** January 09, 2010, 01:21:01 AM »

basicly i think it boils down to nobody likes to get beat/lose.... some ppl take it better than others...
tho there are a few "good" bowlers in my area who W H I N E when they bowl bad or get beat.. its great to watch!

tc300 · « **Reply #37 on:** January 09, 2010, 08:42:46 AM »

quote:

All I want, is for bowling to be like other sports, where you have to do the right thing to acheive a maximum result for the delivery.

NEVER GONA HAPPEN!!! dont really think there is a right or wrong way other than keepn the ball on the lane.... hahaha

you would prolly commits suicide if you bowled overseas in Asia (tiawan), most throw a helicopter style...

rvmark · « **Reply #38 on:** January 09, 2010, 08:56:26 AM »

Even with tougher lane conditions bowling is not going to be like other sports. You can still go brooklyn on a tougher condition and carry, you can still go light in the pocket and carry. As scores have went up some want tougher conditions, in some areas and/or tournaments they have toughened the lane conditions up and the newer equipment has allowed people to continue to score well. In order to make some happy we will need to put out something on the order of either a 50 foot flat pattern or a short reverse block or whatever tough pattern you can come up with that rewards the shotmaking ability of the cream of crop bowlers which will in their minds restore integrity to the sport and preserve bowling for future generations.

With that being said using the golf argument that everyone loves to use. Why don''t we set up every golf course like the US Open: Narrow fairways, extra thick rough, lightning fast greens? I will tell you why because the masses don not wish to play on a course set up like this they want to enjoy their golfing experience.

It all comes down to whether you can bowl and enjoy yourself whether you are bowling on a THS or on a sport pattern.

Finally to answer the question that was originally asked yes some of us are being overbearing trying to force the masses to bowl on tougher conditions, while some have good intentions they need to lighten up and enjoy the "game" or "sport" of bowling. Just my thoughts...

Sorry for the long post.

Mark

quote:
All I want, is for bowling to be like other sports, where you have to do the right thing to acheive a maximum result for the delivery.

In Archery, you must hit the bullseye to acheive maximum result.

In Darts, you must hit triple 20 3 times to acheive maximum result.

In Shooting, you must hit the target to acheive maximum result.

In Golf, a "lucky" hole in one is rarer than hens teeth.

In Bowling, if you have a close enough ball reaction with close enough part of the lane, and close enough to pocket (or brooklyn) and you can frequently acheive maximum result.

Shouldn''t the participant at least have to do something right to be rewarded for their efforts?
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Edited on 1/9/2010 10:18 AM

Xcessive_Evil · « **Reply #39 on:** January 09, 2010, 12:00:45 PM »

I used to have issues with alot of the things people have issues with and complained about it just as much. However, when I realized that I''m not going to stop doing what is fun(and competitive) for me just because of a few details that from a grand scheme of things aren''t that serious, it just became more fun for me. I just do the best I can every week and let the rest take care of itself.

I gladly give congrats to the 165 bowler with handicap for winning a bracket. I give that same level to the 230 guy that shot 300/800. It''s all in being a true sportsman. If THS is honestly "that easy", why aren''t all these so-called top echelon guys averaging 250 with yellow dots since Cells and Gravities are so overpowering for that condition?

I primarily bowl THS-one scratch, one HDCP. However, I''ve been in many scratch tourneys and regionals and continue to do so. Sometimes with great success, sometimes with a major meltdown but I digress. The point is, you know what to expect prior to every season-that''s why they have the meetings.

You hate the fact there are a bunch are beer-drinking party goers looking to just have fun for a few hours? Don''t bowl. You hate the HDCP? Don''t bowl. You don''t like HDCP players in brackets? Create a scratch bracket or don''t enter it. There are just too many options available for the high average, competitive bowlers out there in so many houses across the country. Join a PBAX league, a regional, or even take the effort to create your own scratch tourney.

Just stop complaining, when it''s the THS leagues(and of course the open play) that keep the houses running.

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Edited on 1/9/2010 3:05 PM

Juggernaut · « **Reply #40 on:** January 09, 2010, 02:05:43 PM »

No, I'm not selfish, but like was stated earlier, I wish something had to be done "correctly" to achieve maximum results.

Problem is, people like me are in the GREAT minority. I don't really mind the shot being easy. Heck, It's been pretty easy to hit the pocket in leagues since I started in 1982. What I wish is that scoring depended much more on proper release and targetting. Sadly, the generation of reactive, gyroscopic missiles today takes that practically out of play by their ability to "self-correct" mistakes made by the bowler.

Handicap bowlers are like the hunters around here who bait the game into a feeding spot by providing food supply for months, then sitting in a tree and simply shooting something that happens by to eat some more of the free food, then come to you to brag about the "hunting" trip they went on and how the "hunted" their game.

That's not really "hunting", and whats going on today isn't really "bowling" either.
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renaissanceman517kak · « **Reply #41 on:** January 09, 2010, 02:12:03 PM »

quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I would respond if what you just said made any sense to me...
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Then let me break it down for you:

- "No offense,": I'm not trying to be mean, but...

- "but I don't think you have much room to talk": What I'm saying here is you shouldn't lecture us here because it's slightly hypocritical. Why? I'll get to that.

- "seeing how": This is synonymous with "taking into account how." Either one works. There are also many other possibilities, but "seeing how" was shorter.

- "you and all the political folk here at BR": This little phrase is the subject of the sentence. It includes you and all of the other people on this website that like to argue politics with insults and attacks as opposed to logic and cordiality. For the record, "folk" is an old-school term for people, and political is the adjective describing their subject of choice.

- "debate matters...": "Matters" is a term describing, news, events, people, etc. If you'd like, I can use it in another sentence.

I hope that helps.

Yeah, OK...so now tell me:

a)When's the last time you've seen me in a political debate on here?

b)Where can you cite me whining about politics the way you seem to suggest I do? Can you back up what you say, or are you just content to make an accusation about me that really had zero to do with THIS thread?

renaissanceman517kak · « **Reply #42 on:** January 09, 2010, 02:20:50 PM »

For the bowlers that hate handicaps, why not not just stick to scratch leagues?

Juggernaut · « **Reply #43 on:** January 09, 2010, 02:37:36 PM »

quote:
For the bowlers that hate handicaps, why not not just stick to scratch leagues?

The 10% of bowlers here who would compete in a scratch league don't amount to enough bowlers to get the house to let us bowl one.

We only have 80 men in our mens league, so that would leave about 8 bowlers. I don't live close enough to a large metropolitan area to justify driving there just for bowling. Dallas, Tx is about 90 miles west of me and, with me working basically "on call", I can't just take off and go that far away from home during the week.

If we had a purely scratch league around here to bowl in, you can bet that's what I'd be bowling in.
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renaissanceman517kak · « **Reply #44 on:** January 09, 2010, 04:24:23 PM »

quote:
The 10% of bowlers here who would compete in a scratch league don't amount to enough bowlers to get the house to let us bowl one.

How did you arrive at the 10% number?

Juggernaut · « **Reply #45 on:** January 09, 2010, 04:47:50 PM »

quote:

quote:
The 10% of bowlers here who would compete in a scratch league don't amount to enough bowlers to get the house to let us bowl one.

How did you arrive at the 10% number?

Just a rough estimate of the guys here who have averages high enough that they don't get enough handicap to make a difference anyway. Hopefully, they would all be interested.

Most of the guys in the league average between 170-200 and most have stated their lack of interest in bowling a scratch league. I know because we've already tried for the last couple of years. Seems theres little interest in practicing to get better anymore, nor do many seem to take it as a personal challenge to get better.

It might not be the right number for everyone, but its pretty close to right for where I am.

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Author Topic: Are the Top Bowlers Just Selfish? (Read 11022 times)

txbowler

Are the Top Bowlers Just Selfish?

cheech

Re: Are the Top Bowlers Just Selfish?

EagleHunter

Re: Are the Top Bowlers Just Selfish?

mainzer

Re: Are the Top Bowlers Just Selfish?

ToiletLogCore

Re: Are the Top Bowlers Just Selfish?

EagleHunter

Re: Are the Top Bowlers Just Selfish?

tc300

Re: Are the Top Bowlers Just Selfish?

tc300

Re: Are the Top Bowlers Just Selfish?

rvmark

Re: Are the Top Bowlers Just Selfish?

Xcessive_Evil

Re: Are the Top Bowlers Just Selfish?

Juggernaut

Re: Are the Top Bowlers Just Selfish?

renaissanceman517kak

Re: Are the Top Bowlers Just Selfish?

renaissanceman517kak

Re: Are the Top Bowlers Just Selfish?

Juggernaut

Re: Are the Top Bowlers Just Selfish?

renaissanceman517kak

Re: Are the Top Bowlers Just Selfish?

Juggernaut

Re: Are the Top Bowlers Just Selfish?