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General Category => Miscellaneous => Topic started by: splendorlex on August 06, 2007, 02:26:49 AM

Title: Attempting to change league format...opinions?
Post by: splendorlex on August 06, 2007, 02:26:49 AM
Midway through last year, we moved from an old, 12 lane house to a 24 lane house.  Our league is now 16 teams instead of 12.  What we've always done is had 2 halves, and the winners of the first half met the winners of the second half for the championship.  I'd like to see more teams have a shot, and at our meeting tonight I intend to suggest just that.  These are the options I have come up with, what do you think?  Which do you like better, and why?  Thanks!

Proposed change option 1:

•   Three 11 week thirds (10 weeks plus roll-off, championship in weeks 34-35)
•   Four team championship – 3 different “third” winners and a fourth, wild card team (Wild card team would be team w/ highest point total that did NOT win a third.)
•   A team CANNOT win more than one third, though point total at the end of season would determine seeding.  In the event a team wins more than one third, the team in second place would get a slot in the championship.  We could also elect to award some additional prize money should a team win multiple thirds.
•   Teams are seeded based on point TOTALS for the season, 1 vs 4, 2 vs 3 in week 34, the winners of those matches meet in week 35 to determine the champion

Proposed change option 2:

•   Four 8 week quarters (7 weeks plus roll-off, championship in weeks 33-35)
•   Six team championship – 4 different “quarter” winners and 2 wild card teams (2 teams w/ highest point total that did not win a quarter)
•   Same as above, a team CANNOT win more than one quarter, though it does factor in seeding.  The next highest team in that quarter that did not already win gets a spot.
•   Championship would work as follows:  Teams are seeded 1-6 based on point totals, wild cards can NOT be seeded higher than 5, however.  Seeds 1 and 2 would get a bye in week 33, while 3 bowls 6, and 4 bowls 5.  Week 34 would pit seed 1 against lowest seed and seed 2 against highest seed.  Winners of those matches would meet in week 35 for the championship.

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Mr. Lebowski, this is Bill Salnicker with the Southern Cal Bowling League, and I just got a, an informal report, that a member of your team, uh, Walter Sobchak, drew a firearm during league play. If this is true of course, it contravenes a number of the league's by-laws, and article 27 of the league...
Title: Re: Attempting to change league format...opinions?
Post by: nutsforbowling on August 06, 2007, 10:35:18 AM
And what do the poor teams who don't qualify do during championship weeks? I think you need something to keep people interested for the duration. Also, if some teams see that they can't compete, they might drop out at the end of a round of the regular season.

I have seen multiple teams in playoff formats, but usually the playoff are after the end of the regular season.
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The 10 pin is the enemy!!!!!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: Attempting to change league format...opinions?
Post by: splendorlex on August 06, 2007, 10:44:34 AM
The remaining teams will STILL be bowling for position on those nights, and we have a plethora of side pots still being run as well.  We've always held our championship on the last week, and most guys still bowl!  One of the reasons for this is just what you said, a lot of teams get knocked out EARLY in the two half format.  I've been on teams that were pretty much done in February, and believe me, it's not fun!
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Mr. Lebowski, this is Bill Salnicker with the Southern Cal Bowling League, and I just got a, an informal report, that a member of your team, uh, Walter Sobchak, drew a firearm during league play. If this is true of course, it contravenes a number of the league's by-laws, and article 27 of the league...
Title: Re: Attempting to change league format...opinions?
Post by: Pinbuster on August 06, 2007, 10:48:18 AM
I personally don’t like rounds where you do not bowl everyone at least once.

I would go with 2 halves. Bowl a round robin with a position round for 16 weeks each

Then in a roll off you could include the winners and second place teams out of each round with no team taking more than one spot.

Title: Re: Attempting to change league format...opinions?
Post by: Russell on August 06, 2007, 11:04:19 AM
Option 1....the other makes the roll off too drawn out and complicated for a league.

However you need to reward a team for winning more than one third.  My team ran into this ridiculous rule a few years ago in a 24 team mens league.  We won two thirds and finished second in the other one.  We went into the rolloff and ran into a hot team and ended up finishing third.

I am not a fan of that rule....but I like the 4 team rolloff.
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Title: Re: Attempting to change league format...opinions?
Post by: splendorlex on August 06, 2007, 11:04:35 AM
quote:
I personally don’t like rounds where you do not bowl everyone at least once.

I would go with 2 halves. Bowl a round robin with a position round for 16 weeks each

Then in a roll off you could include the winners and second place teams out of each round with no team taking more than one spot.



I'm not sure what you mean here, Pinbuster.  During the year we do bowl round robin.
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Mr. Lebowski, this is Bill Salnicker with the Southern Cal Bowling League, and I just got a, an informal report, that a member of your team, uh, Walter Sobchak, drew a firearm during league play. If this is true of course, it contravenes a number of the league's by-laws, and article 27 of the league...
Title: Re: Attempting to change league format...opinions?
Post by: splendorlex on August 06, 2007, 11:06:24 AM
I agree that the first option is less complicated than the second, and I wouldn't be surprised if that's what people would like to see.  I'd be happy as long as we have more than 2 teams vying for the championship.  What I intend to do at the meeting is give both as options, then determine by vote if they want to try a new format or stick with the old, then have a second vote to determine which format to use.
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Mr. Lebowski, this is Bill Salnicker with the Southern Cal Bowling League, and I just got a, an informal report, that a member of your team, uh, Walter Sobchak, drew a firearm during league play. If this is true of course, it contravenes a number of the league's by-laws, and article 27 of the league...
Title: Re: Attempting to change league format...opinions?
Post by: Pinbuster on August 06, 2007, 12:19:07 PM
If you bowl an 8 week quarter then you only end up bowling against 8 of the other 16 teams in the league. You are “crowning” a champion for a quarter that has not bowled all the other teams. By a fluke of the schedule a team could have an easy time of it against weaker opposition.

I want to be able to meet all my competition at least once during a round. Sometimes with large leagues over 16 teams it isn’t possible.  
Title: Re: Attempting to change league format...opinions?
Post by: shelley on August 06, 2007, 12:27:13 PM
In my experience, you cannot make significant changes to the rules.  People don't dislike the old rules enough to learn how the new rules work, no matter how simple they are.  Someone will be afraid of getting screwed out of money, no matter how insignificant the amount.  Splitting the league into divisions has been proposed here several times, but someone always doesn't understand it and wonders what's wrong with how we've always done it.  That "what's wrong with the way it is now" mentality tends to kill any radical changes in league formats very quickly because frankly, there isn't anything really wrong with it.

Change to divisions to give more teams a chance and someone will complain next year that their team worked hard to win a lot of games but got beat by a team that got lucky for one or two weeks to win the division or quarter or something.

SH
Title: Re: Attempting to change league format...opinions?
Post by: splendorlex on August 06, 2007, 12:38:06 PM
I should add that our league prize money is fairly evenly distributed, and not weighted heavily towards the teams that win it.  More than anything else, it's a badge of honor to come out on top.  The winning team gets something like 200 dollars extra, for the whole team of 5.
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Mr. Lebowski, this is Bill Salnicker with the Southern Cal Bowling League, and I just got a, an informal report, that a member of your team, uh, Walter Sobchak, drew a firearm during league play. If this is true of course, it contravenes a number of the league's by-laws, and article 27 of the league...
Title: Re: Attempting to change league format...opinions?
Post by: scotts33 on August 06, 2007, 12:41:08 PM
In the end, the more teams involved the better.  However you go about it is the question.  I like option #1 but I do like divisions in a large league.

Folks need to look at the good of the whole league and try to be a little more open to progressive ideas. The old 2 half league formats are being used less and less.  Another issue as to why league particpation is lower is that bowlers need new ideas and new ways to participate.  It gets to old hat.
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Scott

Title: Re: Attempting to change league format...opinions?
Post by: lsf_21 on August 06, 2007, 12:41:52 PM
at our house in most of our leagues we do the 3 thirds and have a wild card team, its ok but i like the bowl in quarters and the winner of each quarter bowl each other for the championship.
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Title: Re: Attempting to change league format...opinions?
Post by: splendorlex on August 06, 2007, 12:42:35 PM
Any ideas on how making divisions would work in a 16 team league?  Just have two divisions of 8, they meet in a roll off in weeks 17 and 34, and then those winners meet for the championship in week 35?
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Mr. Lebowski, this is Bill Salnicker with the Southern Cal Bowling League, and I just got a, an informal report, that a member of your team, uh, Walter Sobchak, drew a firearm during league play. If this is true of course, it contravenes a number of the league's by-laws, and article 27 of the league...
Title: Re: Attempting to change league format...opinions?
Post by: splendorlex on August 06, 2007, 12:43:44 PM
I felt like doing the quarters and then adding in the wild cards would assure that the best teams would most likely get in the championship, along with one or two mid level teams.
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Mr. Lebowski, this is Bill Salnicker with the Southern Cal Bowling League, and I just got a, an informal report, that a member of your team, uh, Walter Sobchak, drew a firearm during league play. If this is true of course, it contravenes a number of the league's by-laws, and article 27 of the league...
Title: Re: Attempting to change league format...opinions?
Post by: BOWL119 on August 06, 2007, 12:44:50 PM
Well as times change, some rules need to change. THis maybe why leagues are dieing out. Some of the newer bowlers do not like the old rules and that is why they choose not to bowl a league.

In changing rules, you need to sit down with the old rules and the new rules. Explain what the changes will do and put it up to the league for a vote. My understanding is you can not just change rules cause you do not like them. The league will have to vote on them.

As long as you explain the rule changes and how they are going to benefit the league, I am sure that everyone will be happy to make the changes.
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T.J.

BOWLING IS FUN NO MATTER WHAT YOU SCORE. BUT A 300 IS ALWAYS NICE.

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GOOD LUCK AND GOOD BOWLING!!!

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Title: Re: Attempting to change league format...opinions?
Post by: splendorlex on August 06, 2007, 01:23:29 PM
I'll be sure to let everyone know tomorrow if I got shot down or what!
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Mr. Lebowski, this is Bill Salnicker with the Southern Cal Bowling League, and I just got a, an informal report, that a member of your team, uh, Walter Sobchak, drew a firearm during league play. If this is true of course, it contravenes a number of the league's by-laws, and article 27 of the league...
Title: Re: Attempting to change league format...opinions?
Post by: Re-Evolution on August 06, 2007, 01:59:52 PM
I like option 2 only without the wild card teams.

Each of the quarter winners would bowl against each other as a whole and not as separate pairs. Have the teams move to where each team will bowl 1 game against the other 3 never bowling on the same lane. I am showing all 16 teams to show the movement.
Example 

Lanes   1   2   3   4   5   6   7   8   9   10   11   12   13   14   15   16
Game 1   Q1   Q2   Q3   Q4   T5   T6   T7   T8   T9   T10   T11   T12   T13   T14   T15   T16
Game 2   T13   T15   T14   T16   Q1   Q3   Q2   Q4   T5   T7   T6   T8   T9   T11   T10   T12
Game 3   T9   T12   T10   T11   T13   T16   T14   T15   Q1   Q4   Q2   Q3   T5   T8   T6   T7

Q# = Quarter winners
T# = Team positions for non Q winners

I think it would be best to use a team handicap system, where the high average team in each block would be giving pins to each of the other teams.
Hypothetical numbers.
Q1 1100
Q2 1080 (20*.8) +16
Q3 1060 (40*.8) +32
Q4 1040 (60*.8) +48

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Title: Re: Attempting to change league format...opinions?
Post by: splendorlex on August 06, 2007, 04:07:55 PM
I probably will have option 2 minus the wild card teams, we'll just have to see what the other team captains have to say.  This kind of thing is voted on by the 16 different captains.
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Mr. Lebowski, this is Bill Salnicker with the Southern Cal Bowling League, and I just got a, an informal report, that a member of your team, uh, Walter Sobchak, drew a firearm during league play. If this is true of course, it contravenes a number of the league's by-laws, and article 27 of the league...
Title: Re: Attempting to change league format...opinions?
Post by: splendorlex on August 06, 2007, 04:39:59 PM
Another option I thought of is taking option 1 and adding divisions.  So in the 11th week roll-off for each third, the winners of the two divisions would meet to determine that third's champion.  If a team is already in the championship, the next highest team in that division would be in the roll-off.  Thoughts?
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Mr. Lebowski, this is Bill Salnicker with the Southern Cal Bowling League, and I just got a, an informal report, that a member of your team, uh, Walter Sobchak, drew a firearm during league play. If this is true of course, it contravenes a number of the league's by-laws, and article 27 of the league...