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Author Topic: AVERAGES ARE MEANINGLESS  (Read 13781 times)

ccrider

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AVERAGES ARE MEANINGLESS
« on: August 15, 2012, 12:47:59 PM »
     I bowled on a "modified" U.S. Open Pattern last week. The ratio outside was actually 2 to 1. It did not matter because the volume of oil was so high until it was impossible to play outside of 10.   The shot was punishing. I bowled 11 games. High game 209, low game 129. The shot was much tougher than the USBC Open shot in Louisiana.

     Everything mattered. Ball speed, release, target--- miss any one and you had no chance of striking.

     The 209 game (5th game) I did have the front five. Five perfect shots. But that's about all I can say I did good for 11 games. The rest was a lesson.

     All that said, it is clear to me that are bowling scores in league bear little to no relationship to are ability to repeat shots. By manipulating the lane conditions, one can score at will, while in the house next door with a more difficult shot, the scores are lower but odds are the bowlers will be better in the long run.

    There should be some way of addressing this inequity. I wish I had the opportunity to practice regularly on a tough shot where you get true feedback about how you throw the ball. I talked the the manager of the center and he told me that he had put the shot out on two lanes for several weeks. Several of the 220+ bowlers struggled to break a 200 game, and some bowled double digit games. That was some consolation, but not much. You really do not know how inconsistent you throw it until you get on a shot with flat, or almost flat oil.

CC
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milorafferty

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Re: AVERAGES ARE MEANINGLESS
« Reply #16 on: August 16, 2012, 03:12:00 PM »
Again, you would not compare averages against other bowling alleys. Or in the case of a second shift league or a travel league would you compare against the entire house, just the people on that league.

You would be ranking bowlers facing the same conditions. So if the entire house had the same patterns, then their rank would be based on how they did against the other bowlers in that house. A travel league would be based on how the bowler did against the members of the travel league. Same for sport leagues and second shift leagues.

The fact is, given the same conditions, the better bowler will rise to the top over time. The lesser skilled bowler would not average as high down to the least skilled.

Quote from: Pinbuster on August 16, 2012, 02:17:51 PM
I think it would be pretty impossible to come up with a rating system.

Without a lot of knowledge of the pattern and general strength of the bowlers.

I bowled in a classic 5 person traveling scratch league for several years before the league folded. This league consisted of a several PBA National and Regional players as well as a good number of current/former Wichita State and Kansas Newman collegiate players.

We bowled second shift at all the houses we rotated thru. I can't tell you the number of times we would come in and some of the better league bowlers in front of us would tell us how tough they were that night.

The net result was most nights this league would produce several honor scores and the league average would be 210+ for the night.

In the past I have bowled in several houses that simply didn't allow good scoring. But virtually all of those houses have closed over the years and with synthetic lanes and modern lane machines most houses have a playable area somewhere.

Some of the houses in the Wichita area have a little better carry than others but all give you a pretty easy opportunity to get to the pocket.

And yes averages are pretty meaningless unless there was a pattern rating with them. 
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vadertyme03

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Re: AVERAGES ARE MEANINGLESS
« Reply #17 on: August 16, 2012, 04:26:27 PM »
The hitch to ranking bowlers in this way is, Joe Schmoe who only bowls one league, avg 210+ while rest of the league is in 170's or below. His ranking or rating would be tops but with no other leagues he would be subjected to the highest tier of bowlers.
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milorafferty

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Re: AVERAGES ARE MEANINGLESS
« Reply #18 on: August 16, 2012, 04:33:55 PM »
That is very true, but Joe Schmoe with a 210+ average will be ranked with the higher level bowlers anyway.

But why would Joe have an average so much higher than the rest of that league? Is Joe that much better on a difficult pattern? (which would make the this rating system correct)

Or does Joe like being a big fish in a little pond of less skilled bowlers? If it's the latter, maybe this ranking system would encourage Joe to find a pond that makes him more equal if he wants to bowl tournaments. However, having seen guys like this, they don't usually bowl tournaments anyway as they know the real story about their skills.

Quote from: vadertyme03 on August 16, 2012, 04:26:27 PM
The hitch to ranking bowlers in this way is, Joe Schmoe who only bowls one league, avg 210+ while rest of the league is in 170's or below. His ranking or rating would be tops but with no other leagues he would be subjected to the highest tier of bowlers.
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Impending Doom

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Re: AVERAGES ARE MEANINGLESS
« Reply #19 on: August 16, 2012, 04:40:13 PM »
Milo,

Agreed. Unless you are just bowling in a league with the wife and still having fun, I could see how that would mess someone up, maybe. But it may be time to strap on your big girl panties and see how you really measure up. Telling someone "Yeah, I average 270" would stop. (Oh yeah, I've heard that more times than I can count.)
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ccrider

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Re: AVERAGES ARE MEANINGLESS
« Reply #20 on: August 16, 2012, 04:52:49 PM »
Quote from: trash heap on August 16, 2012, 03:07:41 PM
Are honor scores meaningless?

Yes, if you are comparing from one house or shot to the next.
I have a different perspective about approaching a sport than many. I know I will never be the best. But I certainly would like to know how I compare to the best, and if I am making progress towards getting better. I want to master the game, and maximize my skill level. I do not think that the various THS allows the opportunity to fine tune your skills to the point of being your best.

And you can not replicate the intensity needed to strike on a 2 to 1 ratio shot, on a consistent basis while bowling on a THS with free hook to the outside, and hold in the center of the lane.

So what, you shot an honor score or a three hundred on the wall of China. That tells me nothing about how good a bowler you are, compared to the guys that can split boards, alter their hand position to obtain desired reactions, and read the lanes properly and make proper adjustments.
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milorafferty

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Re: AVERAGES ARE MEANINGLESS
« Reply #21 on: August 16, 2012, 04:56:26 PM »
Excellent post CC!
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"If you don't stand for our flag, then don't expect me to give a damn about your feelings."

Impending Doom

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Re: AVERAGES ARE MEANINGLESS
« Reply #22 on: August 16, 2012, 05:06:48 PM »
CC,

That's how I feel. I was bowling a Kegel league this summer with 2 fellow BR members (You know who you are), and we led the thing wire to wire. As the anchor, I felt the pressure to perform. All we had to do was win 1 game out of 4. Lost the first 2. Pulled my head out of my bum, changed balls, moved, and rattled off a 220 something to win. Boy, I haven't felt that much good pressure since I used to bowl pot games all the time. I started running them out, and getting really vocal. It felt good to perform!

The house shot... it feels like it's a given already. Meh, I say.
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trash heap

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Re: AVERAGES ARE MEANINGLESS
« Reply #23 on: August 16, 2012, 05:10:38 PM »
Quote from: ccrider on August 16, 2012, 04:52:49 PM
I do not think that the various THS allows the opportunity to fine tune your skills to the point of being your best.

And you can not replicate the intensity needed to strike on a 2 to 1 ratio shot, on a consistent basis while bowling on a THS with free hook to the outside, and hold in the center of the lane.

I don't disagree with you. Usually you state anything about honor scores on an easy shot, some people tend to get a little upset on this site.

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Talkin' Trash!

Impending Doom

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Re: AVERAGES ARE MEANINGLESS
« Reply #24 on: August 16, 2012, 05:25:49 PM »
Ahem.

See my "Sport" bowling must die post. Oh wait... you did. :)

Quote from: trash heap on August 16, 2012, 05:10:38 PM
Quote from: ccrider on August 16, 2012, 04:52:49 PM
I do not think that the various THS allows the opportunity to fine tune your skills to the point of being your best.

And you can not replicate the intensity needed to strike on a 2 to 1 ratio shot, on a consistent basis while bowling on a THS with free hook to the outside, and hold in the center of the lane.

I don't disagree with you. Usually you state anything about honor scores on an easy shot, some people tend to get a little upset on this site.


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Monster Pike

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Re: AVERAGES ARE MEANINGLESS
« Reply #25 on: August 16, 2012, 06:15:05 PM »
No, don't go there again... LMAO!!

Quote from: Impending Doom on August 16, 2012, 05:25:49 PM
Ahem.

See my "Sport" bowling must die post. Oh wait... you did. :)

Quote from: trash heap on August 16, 2012, 05:10:38 PM
Quote from: ccrider on August 16, 2012, 04:52:49 PM
I do not think that the various THS allows the opportunity to fine tune your skills to the point of being your best.

And you can not replicate the intensity needed to strike on a 2 to 1 ratio shot, on a consistent basis while bowling on a THS with free hook to the outside, and hold in the center of the lane.

I don't disagree with you. Usually you state anything about honor scores on an easy shot, some people tend to get a little upset on this site.


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Long Gone Daddy

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Re: AVERAGES ARE MEANINGLESS
« Reply #26 on: August 16, 2012, 09:39:20 PM »
I have honor scores in both type of leagues.  I refuse to denigrate somebody's honor score no matter what they shot it on.  To some bowlers, THS is a tough shot.  To others, not so tough.  I know which one I value more and that's all that matters.  The funny thing is, I had way more fun bowling the honor score on the THS shot and how everybody reacted vs. the almost business-like atmosphere of the tougher shot league where everybody has an honor score or two.  The fun is rapidly leaving the sport with people concerned over stuff like this thread is about. 
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Long Gone also posts the honest truth which is why i respect him. He posts these things knowing some may not like it.

Mainzer

kidlost2000

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Re: AVERAGES ARE MEANINGLESS
« Reply #27 on: August 16, 2012, 10:34:01 PM »
If you want to see how in consistent you really are in any house on any condition, get a plastic ball and start using it as your only ball. Do it in league, practice, or when ever you choose. It will give you a very fast and accurate read on how consistently you are able to do something.

Averages are averages. If you average over 215 it is all the same no matter what that you will not be getting any handicap. So even a house hack at 235 bowling in a jewelry box house will probably not fair as well when he goes to bowl tournaments else where. His disadvantage, not yours.
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Steven

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Re: AVERAGES ARE MEANINGLESS
« Reply #28 on: August 17, 2012, 01:34:23 PM »
Quote from: ccrider on August 16, 2012, 04:52:49 PM

So what, you shot an honor score or a three hundred on the wall of China. That tells me nothing about how good a bowler you are, compared to the guys that can split boards, alter their hand position to obtain desired reactions, and read the lanes properly and make proper adjustments.


CC, I get concerned when read comments like this. The vast majority of bowlers will never experience the joy of shooting a 300, even given the benefits of the great wall of China. There have been threads started here on BR for those who have never shot a 300, and the posts went on for pages. You have to give kudos to the honesty.
 
I have many bowling warts (which Milo can attest to  ;) ), but I do have sanctioned 300s on all sides of the fence -- THS cake, PBA Experience, and Kegel Challenge. I respect any 300 thrown regardless of condition, and will stay and cheer on anyone approaching the feat.
 
The only way you'll truly know "how good" you are is to bowl events like Nationals and your State Tournaments where large numbers of people bowl at the same location and see the same sport conditions. It's the only true test I know where you can compare your scores against thousands of others. There are too many variables at the THS level to get a good apples-to-apples comparison. 
 
Focus on your own game, bowl as many events as you can outside you home house, and you'll get a feel for where you stand in the bowling world. 
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Dogtown

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Re: AVERAGES ARE MEANINGLESS
« Reply #29 on: August 17, 2012, 01:37:13 PM »
Averages and honor scores are not meaningless to me.  They are relative.  You have to compare your scores and average to what everyone else is bowling on with that same condition.  And even then there are some considerations.

The THS is a good example.  Because the margin of error is greater, average bowlers have better odds to do better.  Great bowlers have opportunities, too, but the higher you average, the harder it is to get your average. (Or the better you are the less room you have to improve.  You know what I mean.)

On the nationals shot the cream tends to rise to the top.  Because the margin of error is much much less, average bowlers tend to struggle.  Great bowlers can and will struggle, too.  But their shot making and abilities to adjust will help them score better than the average bowler.

It's no different in golf.  A pro golfer can shoot really low scores on your public coarse, shoot below par on the average tour stop and if they are great, average par on a major stop.  It's all relative!!
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ccrider

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Re: AVERAGES ARE MEANINGLESS
« Reply #30 on: August 17, 2012, 02:59:05 PM »
Any statement can be taken out of context. If any of my analysis is faulty, please point it out. I think my assessments are accurate.

My concern is not about what any particular person's scores are. It is more about the distortion that exist due to intentional manipulation of the game to make it easier.

Add to that, the fact that we are not playing the same game that the pros are playing.

For those of you that have read and follow what I am saying, I appreciate the fact that you understand or share in my frustration. For those of you who are somehow offended, all I can say is --- read what I have said, slower, and give it a chance to sink in, rather than taking it as some personal onslaught.
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