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Author Topic: coke bottle test  (Read 5232 times)

tgs300

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coke bottle test
« on: December 30, 2004, 04:05:09 AM »
After trying to digest all of the wisdom of the members of BR over the last few months, in regards to the span/pitch issue (especially LuckyLefty) …I’ve had an epiphany of sorts…here goes.

Bill Taylor, in his Fitting and Drilling a Bowling Ball, states that a 62 degree angle is optimal.  The Coke Bottle test and resultant chart support this.

Is the 62 degree angle optimal for today’s equipment and conditions?

Perhaps a 62 degree angle encourages hitting up on the ball...

Based on many posts on BR about moving to shorter spans with away lateral and forward thumb pitch, it would then follow that an angle of less than 62 degrees (the hand more closed) would reduce “hitting up on the ball”.

If the Coke Bottle Test, functions well for the 62 degree hand….why is that?

Based on my personal experiments…using a cylinder with a diameter of 2.5 inches…my thumb points just about my ring finger. I’ve been using 1/4 to 3/8 lateral under for as long as I can remember.

But…when I test with a cylinder that is only 1.5 inches in diameter…my thumb now points just below my index finger. Obviously my hand is more closed with the 1.5 inch cylinder than with the 2.5 inch cylinder.

Could another series of guideline charts be developed that would reflect how open or closed the hand is? Perhaps using cylinders of varying sizes for lateral thumb pitches? Approximate forward/reverse pitches could then be based on the desired open/close angle.




Edited on 12/30/2004 1:05 PM
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Brickguy221

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Re: coke bottle test
« Reply #1 on: December 30, 2004, 12:15:36 PM »
The coke can thing  or something a bit smaller or larger if a can is not available has always confused me in determining the correct lateral pitch.
The smaller the object I use, the more my thump indicates under pitch. The larger the object, the more out lateral pitch it indicates.

Is this true for anyone else or is it just me? If this would be true for others, then think about how big and round a bowling ball is and how much more pitch to the left (for right handers) would be required vs right pitch for small objects like a coke can.....

Edited on 12/30/2004 1:15 PM
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tgs300

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Re: coke bottle test
« Reply #2 on: December 30, 2004, 12:32:57 PM »
Brickguy,

That's interesting...you seem to be experiencing the opposite of what I did...as the cylinder gets smaller my thumb points more up toward my index finger.
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Brickguy221

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Re: coke bottle test
« Reply #3 on: December 30, 2004, 01:10:45 PM »
tgs, Bill Taylor had some good ideas 30-40 years ago and some still hold true today, but many do not. I disagree things such as his theory of so much F/R thumb pitch according to length of span, his way of determining span, etc. and similar things. Some of his theories/rules for spans, pitches, etc. work for some people and not for others. They don't work for me. I believe the reason is that it depends on the stiffness of a persons hand, thumb, fingers, etc. For example, my span is much shorter than it would be using his guide lines, probably because of stiffer fingers joints, my thumb pitch is different than he recommends for my size span, etc. because I have both a long thumb, wet thumb, and stiff thumb.

As far as I am concerned, his coke can test is only an "in the area of" test. My lateral thumb pitch is 1/4" different than his charts. To sum it up, all his coke can test is good for is a "guesstimate area" to start at and adjust from there.
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nd300

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Re: coke bottle test
« Reply #4 on: December 30, 2004, 01:50:59 PM »
I don't have any experience drilling a ball,but since we're in the subject of pitches and such,what would happen to your span AFTER bowling 3 games??
 How about you guys measuring before and after to see the difference??? You know,thumb and finger swelling or shrinking,etc???
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LuckyLefty

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Re: coke bottle test
« Reply #5 on: December 31, 2004, 07:56:18 AM »
I'm going to personally see next weekend how relevant Bill's ideas are next weekend!

Yeah!

REgards,

Luckylefty
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pin-chaser

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Re: coke bottle test
« Reply #6 on: December 31, 2004, 08:58:40 AM »
You are discussing apples and oranges here.

62 degree's specifically refers to the forward/reverse pitch of the thumb hole.

the coke bottle test specifically referes to the lateral (left/right) pitches.

 BT discovered that at 62 degrees the thumb exits the thumb hole at the correct point in the bottom of the swing (provided a proper armswing and timing is imployeed).

 For the most part, lateral pitches determined by the coke bottle test is merely an indication of a starting point and not a percise tool. Therefore, the size of the instrument used is not important but the method is.

Is BT's theroies good today? Yes. It promotes great mechanics and a release. Will it be where you will end up if you make it to the "big show"? Probally not. And that is because at the level of the "big show" pitches in thums holes are used to assist the bowler(s) to produce different reactions, just like different releases, different ball speeds, different layouts..etc.


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Brickguy221

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Re: coke bottle test
« Reply #7 on: December 31, 2004, 09:48:50 AM »
Amen Greg. You nailed it better than anyone else here including myself. I too have experienced doing certain things because "that is the way it is supposed to be" whereas for me "it wasn't the way it was supposed to be." Good job on your explaination. It goes along with what I said here about Bill Taylor. Sure, he has some good ideas and therories, but he is not God.
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LuckyLefty

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Re: coke bottle test
« Reply #8 on: December 31, 2004, 11:42:26 PM »
Fascinating topic.

As a sportsman who's first go and love was golf I"ve always been fascinated with the interrelationship of mechanics with anatomy.

Maybe gifted somewhat with the eye of observation(at least for golf).  I find it fascinating to look and watch different golfers at the top level take their grips and then the following movements that then result in ball flight.

For example David Duval at his peak had a 4 knuckle grip and then blocked his release by rotating his head to a position with his chin pointing in front of his golf ball before impact and then hit a cut.  For many years he was one of the longest and straightest drivers on the US golf tour.  All of a sudden a back injury and the swing goes and no longer working is a 4 knuckle grip and the ball is all of a sudden short and everywhere.

Tiger Woods dominates the game by playing for 4 years with a strong grip and very firm arms thru the impact zone(left arm almost hyperextended at impact) and plays a slight fade to incredible success.  All of a sudden he decides he wants to hook the ball more and mysteriously takes a weaker grip and tries to draw the ball.  This experiment is met with miserable results until recently.
WHY?

The relationship of all this was explained very well by a guy name of Dick Lotz(A pga tour winner) in an article called "Mutually exclusive factors" circa 1971.  (Dating myself).  In it he proposed that a proper putting stroke for a person who stood upright,(ala Ben Crenshaw) was only going to be able to putt well by swinging the putter inside along then inside on his putting stroke(somewhat a mini version of the full swing).  On the other hand he pointed out those that bent over the putter(ala George Archur) would tend to putt well by having a stroke that was more directly back and forth.  (The old straight back and thru putting method.

To be continued, sleepy!

REgards,

LUckylefty
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tgs300

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Re: coke bottle test
« Reply #9 on: January 01, 2005, 03:04:56 PM »
It's not apples and oranges...my point is that everything interacts... span /finger pitch/thumb pitches all have to work together. Fitting and Drilling a Bowling Ball put together a system for a "old school" span.

With the trend toward shorter spans...which I equate to being a more closed hand..I believe that guidelines should be able to be developed that will take out some of the guesswork required...to me this would require the development of a "coke bottle test" utilizing a smaller cylinder for lateral pitch. The forward/reverse table can also be modified to reflect the more closed hand.

Being analyitcal by nature...I too find the mechanics/anatomy interaction interesting...and with the advent of modern equipment/releases...I'm trying to figure out how it all interelates..
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LuckyLefty

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Re: coke bottle test
« Reply #10 on: January 01, 2005, 08:53:05 PM »
I was heading there.  But you got the point.

REgards,

Luckylefty
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LuckyLefty

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Re: coke bottle test
« Reply #11 on: January 02, 2005, 07:03:12 AM »
Mucho breatho saved!

REgards,

Luckylefty
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