Author Topic: Ban the good Bowler!! Part 3, final update (Read 5691 times)

shotmaker · « **on:** November 04, 2004, 01:03:51 PM »

*****Final update is at post 20 of the thread*******

Added additional e-mails to bottm of the original post.

Just thought I would share something with all of you for your reading pleasure and feedback. This year I joined a mixed league with my wife and another couple and a nice retired lady. We did really well the first quarter and won 1st place in a 20 team league. The second quarter is a week old and we won 7 of 7. Here is an e-mail that was sent out to the entire league:

quote:
I think there is an unfair advantage by some teams on the league.
Anyone with an average over 200 (the handicap average) is receiving that many extra pins per game and 3 times that many for series. In the past this has only been a few pins over the handicap average and not that big of a deal. With the lowering of the handicap average from 210 to 200 this year it is even more of a problem.

Now I know that people said that handicaps were to high last year and that is why it was dropped to 200. This does not make any sense and the only thing it accomplishes is to allow a larger advantage for people who average over the handicap average.

If someone is averaging 230 and shoots 20 pins UNDER average he still shoots 210 with his handicap of zero. Now in order for me to beat him while averaging 192 I would have to shoot 12 pins OVER average 204+7=211. This is an unfair advantage. The 230 average bowler can bowl 30 pins UNDER average and still not effect his final handicap score. If he bowls average he and his team start with a 30 pin advantage. So you say he will not always bowl average and I agree but if he is absent he will receive a score of 220 giving his team a 20 pin advantage every game. I would love to know I have a guaranteed 20 extra pins per game.
Now, I know people do not want higher handicaps so I propose a negative handicap system. Where if you average above the handicap average you will receive negative pins of handicap. So if a person averages 230, it would be
200-230= -30*80%= -24 handicap.

Now if that person bowls average 230 plus his negative handicap = 206 a much more attainable score for someone with a lower average to beat. Notice that this still will give the higher average bowler a slight advantage but not a huge one. - I know that this used to be just a friendly league but I believe it is becoming more of a competitive league. Teams will not like one team continually winning due to this advantage. - There are other solutions but I think using a negative handicap system makes it fair for everyone.

This is how a series of e-mails started, i'll post the rest of them if I see interest in the subject.

A little backround on me. I joined this league to have a good time, drink some beers, socialize, and spend a night out with my wife. I was tired of ultra competitive leagues. I have been banned from leagues before or forced to leave leagues because handicap crusaders would persuade the league to vote in 100% negative handicaps over 210.

The next few e-mails get better.......

Updated Strating Here.

Here is the reply I sent out to the original e-mail:

quote:
******, If this was so important perhaps it would
have been proper to sign the letter so we would know
who is complaining.

My team and I really don't understand the point of
sending the whining of one person to everyone in an
effort to cause friction in the league and animosity
towards our team. We created our team over the summer
and bowled the summer league ending up in 7th out of
14 teams. We came into this league already bowling
well which may be the reason for our quick start.

To say that a team is successful because of the
bowling of 1 player is wrong. A team has 5 players and
each contributes to a win. Here we have an unknown
person indirectly complaining about me to everyone and
the fact is we have won most of our games by more than
the 20 pins the person feels I have an advantage with.
Successful teams are teams that pick up their spares
and teams where different players have big games at
different times. I'm sure it helps my team from time
to time when I coach them a bit while they bowl,
should I be muzzled because this is unfair too?

Now, I'd like to clear the air about my average. Here
is last year's full year average at Niles Brunswick
Zone for me direct from the ABC website:

League Average: 210
League Name: Grennan Heights Men
League Type: Winter-All Men
Number of Games Bowled: 93
Center Name: BZ Niles
Association Number: 14148
Association Name: CHICAGO METROPOLITAN BA

As you can see I normally would be under some of our
leagues bowlers. This year I happen to be having a
better year, perhaps my best year. Is it right to give
me such a hard time for having a great year so far?

Discussing a change in the rules is fine. The problem
with it is that these type of rule changes cannot be
made during the middle of a season per ABC rules. In
effect this just stirs the pot in the league.

We joined this league to have a good time on Friday
nights and to make new friends. We came in with an
attitude focused on having fun and not focused on
"winning". If anything, the anonymous writer of the
letter is the one taking things too seriously and
being too competitive. Perhaps you should let everyone
know who wrote the letter, or not send it to everyone
in an effort to isolate our team and direct unwanted
animosity towards it.

Regards,
******

..And this was the next e-mail to go through the chain from the unhappy camper:

quote:
To all,

First off my letter was in no way to offend anyone or aimed at anyone person just the average. I think ***** is an excellent bowler and from my limited contact with him a nice friendly guy.

In response to ******'s letter I would just like to say it was me who wrote the original letter. It was not meant to offend anyone person or team. It is not whinning but just voicing a concern. Maybe there are some people that are not aware of the advanage of having an average over the handicap averae. Would it have been better just to sit back and not inquire what could be done about what I feel is unfair. How else am I supposed to find out without contacting a league officer and then in turn how is that league officer supposed to find out if anyone else has the same concern as me. Maybe there are other people that have the same concern as me but did not want to be called a whinner.

Other leagues that are more competive have provisions set up for extremly high average bowlers. Like raising the handicap average or even voting to not allow that person or team to join the league. I am in no way suggesting that anyone with a very high average not be allowed on the league. Far from it. I believe better bowlers make the rest of us better. I fell we just need to even out the playing field for us bowlers that are not as good.

I did not write ******* telling her she had to make a change or threating to quit or anything like that. I just wanted to know if other people felt the same way I do and offer other ways to make the league fair. I am not a student of the ABC rules but doing a quick search on the internet for the rules I could not find anything about not changing the handicap. Maybe there is and if there is ***** could you please let me know where to find it and then I will drop the whole subject and happily compete and have fun against you and everyone else by the current rules. I will also drop the subject if I am alone in this thinking.

I agree with ***** about a winning team where it is a team that wins and they all share in winning or losing, but I would still rather be on the team with a 30 pin advantage.

*** ******

P.S. Since ***** was willing post some of his past bowling information I thought that all of his information from the ABC website should be posted.

At this point all my league information and award scores for the last 4 years was pasted and posted from the ABC website. Almost everyone in the league knows that I have the high series in the house for this year and they also know about some of my championships in another bowling organization from 10+ years ago.

Immidiately after reading this e-mail another came into my mailbox:

quote:
Please everyone do not get pissed or mad at ******.
I honestly believe he joined the league to have a good time. This problem is not ******'s fault. He is playing by the rules as they are set up right now. It is not ******* that is the problem or the issue, I feel it is the handicap average that is the problem. If other people are in agreement maybe we can vote to change things to be as fair as possible to as many people as possible.

Thanks again
***

Tonight should be interesting. This league had been a great way to end the week. Some bowling, socializing, having some drinks and blowing off some of the weeks stress. I have a feeling there will be a different attitude towards us tonight.

I agree with the suggestion made about adding total team average and taking 80 or 90 % of the total team average from a number, probably 1000. My personal opinion is that this is really sour grapes about a guy that can't win in the pots. (Pots are usually won with 270+ with cap)

Edited on 11/5/2004 11:30 AM

Edited on 11/6/2004 5:58 AM

michelle · « **Reply #1 on:** November 04, 2004, 09:11:17 PM »

Are there individual points to be had in a given night or do the individual handicaps add up to a team handicap? If it is individual, then the rebuttal argument to be made is that the 230 that shoots a 210 put a burden on the shoulders of his/her teammate to come up with 20 extra pins.

shotmaker · « **Reply #2 on:** November 04, 2004, 09:15:10 PM »

It's a 7 point team night (2+2+2+1 series). Handicaps are individual but added together for a team total. 5 people on a team with a minimum of 2 ladies. no head to head individual points.

scotts33 · « **Reply #3 on:** November 04, 2004, 09:20:02 PM »

michelle's point is exactly right. Also league officers should have done some research and know who's bowling and set up league rulles to fit EVERYONE. If they knew you were going to bowl in league as a former PBA player I would have thought they'd ask some questions when they set up league rules....team wise or individual wise.

I think you get my point shotmaker.

Scott

mumzie · « **Reply #4 on:** November 04, 2004, 10:48:17 PM »

Our mixed league had one bowler around 230 a couple of years ago. When he left the league, they wanted to lower the handicap basis average. I'm one of the higher average bowlers in the league, so of course, whatever I say is considered suspect. Someone suggested negative handicap for anyone going over 220 (the new basis).

I told them that if they voted that in that I would walk - but instead, why not do 100% to 300???
That way the highest average in the league was no longer an issue.

They didn't do it - but this year I plan to go past their 220 basis, and make 'em discuss it next year!
--------------------
"Everyone is in favor of free speech. Hardly a day passes without its being extolled, but some people's idea of it is that they are free to say what they like, but if anyone says anything back, that is an outrage."
--Winston Churchill

Ishmael · « **Reply #5 on:** November 05, 2004, 07:09:14 AM »

The hadicap basis should always be higher than the highest average in the league. However, if the league was dumb enough to lower the handicap basis to 200, then they deserve what they get.

Pinbuster · « **Reply #6 on:** November 05, 2004, 07:29:32 AM »

I guess I donâ€™t understand the resistance to negative handicap when you are willing to raise the handicap base.

Bowler1 has 230 average, Bowler2 has 200 average.

________________________________________________________________
With a 220 base, 80% handicap, and allow negative, each bowls their average.

Bowler1 230 - 8 pins = 222

Bowler2 200 + 16 pins = 216

Bowler1 wins by 6 pins.

_________________________________________________________________
With a 230 base, 80% handicap, and no negative, each bowls their average.

Bowler1 230 + 0 pins = 230

Bowler 2 200 + 24 pins = 224

Bowler1 wins by the same 6 pins. The scores are just higher.

Now should they change the rules now, I donâ€™t think so. But I have been in similar situations before myself. They held off each year and would change the rules for the next season.

The raised the cap from 200 to 210 to 220. Then they raised the handicap from 80% to 85% to 90%. They finally put a team average cap in that just happened to exclude only my team.

Iâ€™m sure there probably isnâ€™t even any prize money to speak of involved I know there wasnâ€™t in my case, first paid $35 a person and the last place team got $20 a person.

But even with negative handicap the better bowlers will still have an advantage.

Relax and enjoy the league for what it is, a social gathering and not a serious competition. You can make a decision next year on whether to stay in or quit the league regardless of how this yearâ€™s rules work out.

Waldorf Salad · « **Reply #7 on:** November 05, 2004, 07:48:29 AM »

You joined this league to have fun, spend time with your wife, and drink beer. I don't get why there's a big deal about the league trying to fix thier league to make it so they have a chance to "win"? As the recent posts have stated, this league didn't create a very good system to generate "equallity" in the first place. I'd say let them do whatever they want. I've yet to figure out what anyone thinks they've "Won" in a handicap league anyway.

Banned from leagues? Forced to leave the league due to 100% negative handicap? What is all this about? Handicapped mixed leagues are for all the masses of junky bowlers that average 175 amd 150 and 125 and have no intention of getting better, but keep bowling year after year because they enjoy the recreational-social aspect of bowling. 100% negative handicap sounds like exactly what this league should have. Do you really care if you win some mixed league? You've developed your game to a more advanced level and get to enjoy the game in ways they can only pretend to with handicap.

Will be interesting to see what are in the future emails. I doubt this email, which sounds reasonable and thought-out, is what lead you to post it here.

shotmaker · « **Reply #8 on:** November 05, 2004, 08:11:22 AM »

In order to average 235 a bowler needs to stay clean and throw about 7-8 strikes a game. In order for that bowler to bowl 20 pins over average the bowler would need to throw 9-10 strikes and be clean. The point is as someone who has averaged in the 230's, most games are actually right at the average point. If a person averages 175 and they convert 2 more spares which they regularly miss by 1 inch they are 22 pins over average. If they get a turkey look out, they may shoot 50-60 pins over average. If you gave negative cap to a bowler with a high average his maximum score would be around 274 provided he shoots 300, the maximum score for a 175'ish bowler would be in the 330's. Negative does not work, basing the average off of 300 would basically cause the same problem-it would turn bowling into a "pins-over-average" contest that would invite serious baggers.

With negative cap a high average bowler has no chance. It's too hard to consistently shoot the big numbers, increasing from a 230 average compared to someone increasing their score from a 170's average.

guzmand19 · « **Reply #9 on:** November 05, 2004, 08:34:07 AM »

I think a negative cap is BS. If you throw a 300, now you lose pins??
It's called sore losers. Unless the league is playing straight match play, the opposing players team can each bowl over average and take out Shotmaker's team. If Shotmaker throws an above average game, it's unfair??? Why? Because he practiced more, worked on his game more, and is a better bowler for it??

Instead of this jerk proposing rules to punish someone better at the sport, they should be spending that time begging Shotmaker for lessons. We have already all decided that the goal in bowling is to do as best as you can, and anything else is bagging. So Shotmaker goes about making shots, and now he should be punished for it?

If the whiner doesn't like it, either work on your game or quit. This clown will feel a lot better if he beats Shotmaker outright instead of using negative points against Shotmaker. The clown already GETS pins in handicap!!

Today's attitude of "It's not fair" is seeping into everything. Like Shotmaker says, its MUCH harder for him to maintain a 230 average than it is a 170 average. The 170 bowler simply has to make a few spares and he is now a 190 bowler. The 230 bowler cannot miss any spares and also must keep carrying. On top of that, he should now be punished??
--------------------
D <~~~~ Used to be terrible wiffing 10 pins. Now through much practice, can wiff any single pin spare at any time.

Darrell Guzman
guzmand19 - Yahoo IM and MSN screen names

tenpinspro · « **Reply #10 on:** November 05, 2004, 09:52:17 AM »

Hey shotmaker,

Why not suggest a simple 80-90 (whatever your % of cap is) to the difference between the two competing teams? This would seem like a good quick fix to the situation without offending anyone. Since there are no individual points to be won, it seems a little odd to base cap off individuals when it's team points only. That's what I've done in a couple of my house leagues to allow "all" levels of players to participate. Just a thought...

Rick

Ragnar · « **Reply #11 on:** November 05, 2004, 10:19:01 AM »

Just to keep the lawyers busy I think you should send an email of your own suggesting that a rule change at this time would arouse the interest of a lawyer. I doubt if there is any real legal footing, but I always like to see people react when they hear the word "lawyer."

Personally I think you bowl with a league of whiners.
--------------------
"Things fall apart; the center cannot hold; mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,"
Ragnar sure likes to throw his purdy Uranium Buzzsaw.

T-GOD · « **Reply #12 on:** November 05, 2004, 10:32:39 AM »

I agree with tenpinspro. Using the difference, say 90%, between the 2 teams is a much fairer system, in my opinion. =:^D

Pinbuster · « **Reply #13 on:** November 05, 2004, 10:46:46 AM »

Using team averages it is the same difference as negative handicap.

80% of 220 with negative

Team1 â€“ Team average is 610

Bowler1 - 200 average 16 pins handicap
Bowler2 - 180 average 32 pins handicap
Bowler3 â€“ 230 average -8 pins handicap

Total Handicap team1 is 40 pins

Team 2 â€“ Team average is 540

Bowler1 - 180 average 32 pins handicap
Bowler2 â€“ 190 average 24 pins handicap
Bowler3 - 170 average 40 pins handicap

Total handicap team2 is 96 pins.

Difference by individual computed handicap is 56 pins.

Team1 average minus Team2 average is 70 pins at 80% is 56 pins exactly the same.

If you are not bowling head to head it makes no difference if you use negative handicap or the difference of team averages.

ClutchClay · « **Reply #14 on:** November 05, 2004, 11:14:58 AM »

If they want to vote to change the handicap rule then fine let them try. But as I understand it, after the league has started, it takes a 100% vote of the board (officers + captains) to change a rule. Since your team must have a captain and, therefore, a vote - there you have one no vote and the rule cannot be changed.

Of course, they can always bring the issue up at next years meeting and then it only takes a majority vote of people at the meeting to change a rule.
--------------------
Regards, ClutchClay
Ball review spreadsheet available at http://www.allBowling.com/downloads/Balls.xls.

Author Topic: Ban the good Bowler!! Part 3, final update (Read 5691 times)

shotmaker

Ban the good Bowler!! Part 3, final update

michelle

Re: Ban the good Bowler!! Part 3, final update

shotmaker

Re: Ban the good Bowler!! Part 3, final update

scotts33

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mumzie

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Ishmael

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Pinbuster

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Waldorf Salad

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shotmaker

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guzmand19

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tenpinspro

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Ragnar

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T-GOD

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Pinbuster

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ClutchClay

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