Author Topic: Ban the good Bowler!! Part 3, final update (Read 5693 times)

shotmaker · « **on:** November 04, 2004, 01:03:51 PM »

*****Final update is at post 20 of the thread*******

Added additional e-mails to bottm of the original post.

Just thought I would share something with all of you for your reading pleasure and feedback. This year I joined a mixed league with my wife and another couple and a nice retired lady. We did really well the first quarter and won 1st place in a 20 team league. The second quarter is a week old and we won 7 of 7. Here is an e-mail that was sent out to the entire league:

quote:
I think there is an unfair advantage by some teams on the league.
Anyone with an average over 200 (the handicap average) is receiving that many extra pins per game and 3 times that many for series. In the past this has only been a few pins over the handicap average and not that big of a deal. With the lowering of the handicap average from 210 to 200 this year it is even more of a problem.

Now I know that people said that handicaps were to high last year and that is why it was dropped to 200. This does not make any sense and the only thing it accomplishes is to allow a larger advantage for people who average over the handicap average.

If someone is averaging 230 and shoots 20 pins UNDER average he still shoots 210 with his handicap of zero. Now in order for me to beat him while averaging 192 I would have to shoot 12 pins OVER average 204+7=211. This is an unfair advantage. The 230 average bowler can bowl 30 pins UNDER average and still not effect his final handicap score. If he bowls average he and his team start with a 30 pin advantage. So you say he will not always bowl average and I agree but if he is absent he will receive a score of 220 giving his team a 20 pin advantage every game. I would love to know I have a guaranteed 20 extra pins per game.
Now, I know people do not want higher handicaps so I propose a negative handicap system. Where if you average above the handicap average you will receive negative pins of handicap. So if a person averages 230, it would be
200-230= -30*80%= -24 handicap.

Now if that person bowls average 230 plus his negative handicap = 206 a much more attainable score for someone with a lower average to beat. Notice that this still will give the higher average bowler a slight advantage but not a huge one. - I know that this used to be just a friendly league but I believe it is becoming more of a competitive league. Teams will not like one team continually winning due to this advantage. - There are other solutions but I think using a negative handicap system makes it fair for everyone.

This is how a series of e-mails started, i'll post the rest of them if I see interest in the subject.

A little backround on me. I joined this league to have a good time, drink some beers, socialize, and spend a night out with my wife. I was tired of ultra competitive leagues. I have been banned from leagues before or forced to leave leagues because handicap crusaders would persuade the league to vote in 100% negative handicaps over 210.

The next few e-mails get better.......

Updated Strating Here.

Here is the reply I sent out to the original e-mail:

quote:
******, If this was so important perhaps it would
have been proper to sign the letter so we would know
who is complaining.

My team and I really don't understand the point of
sending the whining of one person to everyone in an
effort to cause friction in the league and animosity
towards our team. We created our team over the summer
and bowled the summer league ending up in 7th out of
14 teams. We came into this league already bowling
well which may be the reason for our quick start.

To say that a team is successful because of the
bowling of 1 player is wrong. A team has 5 players and
each contributes to a win. Here we have an unknown
person indirectly complaining about me to everyone and
the fact is we have won most of our games by more than
the 20 pins the person feels I have an advantage with.
Successful teams are teams that pick up their spares
and teams where different players have big games at
different times. I'm sure it helps my team from time
to time when I coach them a bit while they bowl,
should I be muzzled because this is unfair too?

Now, I'd like to clear the air about my average. Here
is last year's full year average at Niles Brunswick
Zone for me direct from the ABC website:

League Average: 210
League Name: Grennan Heights Men
League Type: Winter-All Men
Number of Games Bowled: 93
Center Name: BZ Niles
Association Number: 14148
Association Name: CHICAGO METROPOLITAN BA

As you can see I normally would be under some of our
leagues bowlers. This year I happen to be having a
better year, perhaps my best year. Is it right to give
me such a hard time for having a great year so far?

Discussing a change in the rules is fine. The problem
with it is that these type of rule changes cannot be
made during the middle of a season per ABC rules. In
effect this just stirs the pot in the league.

We joined this league to have a good time on Friday
nights and to make new friends. We came in with an
attitude focused on having fun and not focused on
"winning". If anything, the anonymous writer of the
letter is the one taking things too seriously and
being too competitive. Perhaps you should let everyone
know who wrote the letter, or not send it to everyone
in an effort to isolate our team and direct unwanted
animosity towards it.

Regards,
******

..And this was the next e-mail to go through the chain from the unhappy camper:

quote:
To all,

First off my letter was in no way to offend anyone or aimed at anyone person just the average. I think ***** is an excellent bowler and from my limited contact with him a nice friendly guy.

In response to ******'s letter I would just like to say it was me who wrote the original letter. It was not meant to offend anyone person or team. It is not whinning but just voicing a concern. Maybe there are some people that are not aware of the advanage of having an average over the handicap averae. Would it have been better just to sit back and not inquire what could be done about what I feel is unfair. How else am I supposed to find out without contacting a league officer and then in turn how is that league officer supposed to find out if anyone else has the same concern as me. Maybe there are other people that have the same concern as me but did not want to be called a whinner.

Other leagues that are more competive have provisions set up for extremly high average bowlers. Like raising the handicap average or even voting to not allow that person or team to join the league. I am in no way suggesting that anyone with a very high average not be allowed on the league. Far from it. I believe better bowlers make the rest of us better. I fell we just need to even out the playing field for us bowlers that are not as good.

I did not write ******* telling her she had to make a change or threating to quit or anything like that. I just wanted to know if other people felt the same way I do and offer other ways to make the league fair. I am not a student of the ABC rules but doing a quick search on the internet for the rules I could not find anything about not changing the handicap. Maybe there is and if there is ***** could you please let me know where to find it and then I will drop the whole subject and happily compete and have fun against you and everyone else by the current rules. I will also drop the subject if I am alone in this thinking.

I agree with ***** about a winning team where it is a team that wins and they all share in winning or losing, but I would still rather be on the team with a 30 pin advantage.

*** ******

P.S. Since ***** was willing post some of his past bowling information I thought that all of his information from the ABC website should be posted.

At this point all my league information and award scores for the last 4 years was pasted and posted from the ABC website. Almost everyone in the league knows that I have the high series in the house for this year and they also know about some of my championships in another bowling organization from 10+ years ago.

Immidiately after reading this e-mail another came into my mailbox:

quote:
Please everyone do not get pissed or mad at ******.
I honestly believe he joined the league to have a good time. This problem is not ******'s fault. He is playing by the rules as they are set up right now. It is not ******* that is the problem or the issue, I feel it is the handicap average that is the problem. If other people are in agreement maybe we can vote to change things to be as fair as possible to as many people as possible.

Thanks again
***

Tonight should be interesting. This league had been a great way to end the week. Some bowling, socializing, having some drinks and blowing off some of the weeks stress. I have a feeling there will be a different attitude towards us tonight.

I agree with the suggestion made about adding total team average and taking 80 or 90 % of the total team average from a number, probably 1000. My personal opinion is that this is really sour grapes about a guy that can't win in the pots. (Pots are usually won with 270+ with cap)

Edited on 11/5/2004 11:30 AM

Edited on 11/6/2004 5:58 AM

Cjeep · « **Reply #16 on:** November 05, 2004, 11:41:53 AM »

Okay got a problem here folks,

First off working a bowling center I have seen this before. Second off I have been on the recieving end of being kicked off of a league b/c I outaveraged the best bowler by 30 sticks. So with that said.

I think that first your league is not really a league at all. Its a great league for people who want to have fun and enjoy a night out. However, you have those few who think they are going to make a living off of this league and that they want every advantage they can get. Furthermore, if they were so concerned with the league why dont they just got to 100% of 230. I believe abc has started suggesting that. Now for the whinners in your league about people who dont avg as well as you do. First off take it as a compliment. Secondly, IF THEY WANT TO GET BETTER "PRACTICE". I KNOW THATS A VERY HARD WORD FOR MANY ONE NIGHT A WEEK BOWLERS BUT THE 200 DOLLAR BALLS YOU GO OUT AND BY WILL NOT HELP IF YOU ARE NOT PRACTICING. SORRY

Finally man just keep your head up. Realize that the few who are wanting to cause problems are affraid of bowling your team. They want every advantage they can get by being lazy. Instead of working for something they have to penalize the better bowlers for it. Its the way many handicap league work know. They just dont want take responbility for improving themselves.

anyway enough of my ranting
good luck

p.s
just go all out and avg 240 on them. then they will really grip

shotmaker · « **Reply #17 on:** November 06, 2004, 05:17:35 AM »

So we bowled league Friday night. As fate had it my team bowled next to the person in the league that was attempting to stir the pot about handicaps. Many of the bowlers came over to show support to me and most thought it was sour grapes on the part of the complainer. It turns out that the person who complained had been a big-time pot winner the last couple years and lately has been unable to win. This guy throws the ball pretty well but is lined up too deep for this years heavier oil pattern.

When I learned I was bowling next to this guy I was a bit fired up and decided that I would really focus on my game and be serious just to bug him. As a team we wooped it up during bowling and were quite rowdy actually much to the amusement of some of the others in the league who knew why we were doing it. As my strikes mounted the other teams mood dampened and sour faces and rolling eyes after each strike were evident.

By the end of the night we had gone 5-2 as a team, and I shot 804 for my biggest fan who was bowling on the pair next to me. There was a chorus of complaints with my neighbor for the night leading the choir, the other singers were several of the highest average people in the league including one guy who won the doubles pot with me this night.

Can't wait till next week!

JOE FALCO · « **Reply #18 on:** November 06, 2004, 06:28:06 AM »

From reading this WHOLE posting now for the first time I see SHOTMAKER is a BIG TIME BOWLER. Good for you! What I don't understand is:

1. Why is a BIG TIME BOWLER like yourself doing in a HANDICAP league? If the answer is TO HAVE FUN .. I ask you what do you think the OTHER BOWLERS are in there for .. TO PAY FOR YOUR FUN?
2. Exactly what do you find wrong with THE COMPLAINERS letter? He has made a legitimate complaint. The NUMBERS he reflects in his letter is PERFECTLY RIGHT! There is a DEFINITE ADVANTAGE to the teams that have one or more 200+ average on their roster.

It is recommended that the league be FAIR to all bowlers. (STOP USING SANDBAGGERS AS A CRUTCH). ADD the AVERAGES of OPPOSING TEAMS .. SUBTRACT the difference and that NUMBER is the HANDICAP of the lower AVERAGE team.

You want to show how good you are .. GO IN A SCRATCH LEAGUE! Practice all you want .. go beat the BIG BOYS .. stay out of the HANDICAP LEAGUES unless you are willing to give the lower AVERAGE bowlers a CHANCE.

I give the guy who wrote the initial LETTER a lot of credit. HE'S RIGHT! Look at the numbers he put down .. show where he is wrong! If the letter writer is putting $1 a week into the prize fund it's becoming a DONATION! His chances of beating the team that has 200+ averages is VERY WEAK!
--------------------
Hit them light and watch them fight
J O E - F A L C O

SrKegler · « **Reply #19 on:** November 06, 2004, 06:56:48 AM »

The way I Understood the post, they changed the handicap this year, handicapping off of 200. The guy that is complaining now is the same one that complained last year handicap was too high.

In any case, it is too late complaining now. These are the kind of problems that have to be worked out during the leagues meeting.

There is never going to be a fair handicapping system.

For example, handicapping off of the difference in teams averages takes away the bonus pins for people that average over the handicap floor.

Most leagues though have High Game Handicap series and games for the team and individuals.

Team 1 average 800
Team 2 average 800
Team 10 average 1000.

Suppose team 1 and team 2 bowl each other. Neither receives any handicap since their average is the same. Team 1 bowls their best series of the year. Say 2700. No handicap pins since they were effectively bowling scratch.

Had they been bowling team 10, they would have received 480 pins handicap for a 3180 instead, based on 80% of the difference.

One of the problems I see in league bowling is EVERYONE is looking for an advantage. They REFUSE though to do like Marty did and get out and practice to improve their game up to his level.

--------------------
~~~SrK - Have balls, will travel

Spending the kids inheritance one tournament at a time.

JOE FALCO · « **Reply #20 on:** November 06, 2004, 07:17:19 AM »

PRACTICE is not the QUESTION .. we are talking average. If you want to relate PRACTICE to AVERAGE we might say that MORE PRACTICE gives HIGHER AVERAGE. Good .. now getting back to AVERAGE ... the only person getting an advantage in a handicap league with LESS THEN 100% handicap is the HIGHER BOWLER! 100% handicap forces the WINNER to bowl OVER AVERAGE! The only argument against this is SANDBAGGING .. that doesn't hold water in LEAGUES! If you are going to SANDBAG in a league .. your average will not be SANDBAGGING it will be reflective of your weekly scores!

TRUTH is I believe that SHOTMAKER is the COMPLAINER .. not the original LETTER WRITER. The Letter writer is asking for the league to consider a change and offered a solution. Evidently SHOTMAKER likes his advantage.

As to when the change in HANDICAP METHOD can be instituted .. I don't know .. is it a SPLIT league ... don't know what is implied in the ABC rules!
--------------------
Hit them light and watch them fight
J O E - F A L C O

JOE FALCO · « **Reply #21 on:** November 06, 2004, 07:36:42 AM »

SHOTMAKER .. do you realize that if you have a 230 average (don't know if you do .. but somehow I think it's implied) and are bowling against a 170 average bowler with a handicap system of 90% of 200 results could be:

- 230 bowler bowls 30 pins under average 200 total with H'cap= 200

- 170 bowler bowls 170 average with H'cap of 29= 197

Do you believe that the 230 bowler should win with 30 under average? What chance does the 170 bowler have? NONE! Do you think this MIGHT DRIVE the lower average bowlers out of the LEAGUE? I think the LETTER WRITER was CORRECT! Be FAIR and stand behind the letter writer!
--------------------
Hit them light and watch them fight
J O E - F A L C O

seadrive · « **Reply #22 on:** November 06, 2004, 08:20:55 AM »

Joe, we all know how you feel about handicap, but I think you're missing the point, or at least one of the points.

Shotmaker and his team are new to the league. They're not the ones who proposed the handicap system being used. Apparently, it was proposed by others who thought the lower-average teams were getting too much handicap. They wanted to give themselves an advantage, and somehow managed to get the league to vote for 80% of 200, probably because people who are just there for fun didn't take the time to think through the ramifications.

Now that the system they proposed is working more in favor of someone else (shotmaker), they're complaining that it's unfair. This is nothing more than sour grapes. They made their bed, now they can sleep in it!

As I said, shotmaker's team was new to the league, and had very little influence in how the handicap was determined. I'm sure he would have been fine with 100% of 300, since the goal was just to have fun. It's only the complaining of others that has got his juices flowing.
--------------------
seadrive
Cogito ergo bowl

SrKegler · « **Reply #23 on:** November 06, 2004, 08:41:00 AM »

Thanks Seadrive, that's a better explanation. What is really dumb though is the league did not change the handicap, just waht it was based on. There wouldn't have been any changes except everyone's handicap was lower.

Now is they had lowered the handicap from 90% to 80% that would have made a difference.

I could also understand them bring this up at next years meeting. What are they going to do this year. Change the rules and then refigure the games won/lost on a different scenario. What if Shotmakers teams still wins, keep fiddling with the handicap until the standings change?

I do agree Shotmaker's team has a great advantage but it was the doing of the league, not his team.

--------------------
~~~SrK - Have balls, will travel

Spending the kids inheritance one tournament at a time.

JOE FALCO · « **Reply #24 on:** November 06, 2004, 09:04:23 AM »

quote:
******, If this was so important perhaps it would
have been proper to sign the letter so we would know
who is complaining.

My team and I really don't understand the point of
sending the whining of one person to everyone in an
effort to cause friction in the league and animosity
towards our team. We created our team over the summer
and bowled the summer league ending up in 7th out of
14 teams. We came into this league already bowling
well which may be the reason for our quick start.

To say that a team is successful because of the
bowling of 1 player is wrong. A team has 5 players and
each contributes to a win. Here we have an unknown
person indirectly complaining about me to everyone and
the fact is we have won most of our games by more than
the 20 pins the person feels I have an advantage with.
Successful teams are teams that pick up their spares
and teams where different players have big games at
different times. I'm sure it helps my team from time
to time when I coach them a bit while they bowl,
should I be muzzled because this is unfair too?

Now, I'd like to clear the air about my average. Here
is last year's full year average at Niles Brunswick
Zone for me direct from the ABC website:

League Average: 210
League Name: Grennan Heights Men
League Type: Winter-All Men
Number of Games Bowled: 93
Center Name: BZ Niles
Association Number: 14148
Association Name: CHICAGO METROPOLITAN BA

As you can see I normally would be under some of our
leagues bowlers. This year I happen to be having a
better year, perhaps my best year. Is it right to give
me such a hard time for having a great year so far?

Discussing a change in the rules is fine. The problem
with it is that these type of rule changes cannot be
made during the middle of a season per ABC rules. In
effect this just stirs the pot in the league.

We joined this league to have a good time on Friday
nights and to make new friends. We came in with an
attitude focused on having fun and not focused on
"winning". If anything, the anonymous writer of the
letter is the one taking things too seriously and
being too competitive. Perhaps you should let everyone
know who wrote the letter, or not send it to everyone
in an effort to isolate our team and direct unwanted
animosity towards it.

Regards,

This response, although he states he joined to have fun, does not come across as a bowler who is there to have fun. He seems VERY AGRESSIVE and INTIMIDATING! Challenging as to why the letter wasn't signed and does not address the complaint. I think the method of adjusting the HANDICAP recommended by the writer was still in favor of the HIGHER BOWLER however a little difficult for AUTOMATED SYSTEMS to provide.

I would say that SHOTMAKER seems a little PARANOID .. the original writer talks about "some teams on the league" while SHOTMAKER says "isolate our team and direct unwanted animosity towards it." .. don't think that was a way to respond to a person who sees something in the league that is evidently WRONG and is ASKING for consideration! If SHOTMAKER is NEW in the league .. he certainly isn't MAKING FRIENDS with a response that he put out! Sounds like he's creating a problem with the writer, not addressing the writer's point and where was it mentioned about HIS TEAM?

--------------------
Hit them light and watch them fight
J O E - F A L C O

SrKegler · « **Reply #25 on:** November 06, 2004, 09:28:19 AM »

If someone is averaging 230 and shoots 20 pins UNDER average he still shoots 210 with his handicap of zero. Now in order for me to beat him while averaging 192 I would have to shoot 12 pins OVER average 204+7=211. This is an unfair advantage. The 230 average bowler can bowl 30 pins UNDER average and still not effect his final handicap score.

The key here is the 230 average. Marty is the only bowler on the league with that average. Seems pretty obvious to me who the letter is directed to.

--------------------
~~~SrK - Have balls, will travel

Spending the kids inheritance one tournament at a time.

shotmaker · « **Reply #26 on:** November 06, 2004, 10:16:10 AM »

Great discussion guys, thanks for the opinions. Let me sum up some keys that seem to be getting skewed at times.

At this time there is only one 230+ average
There is only 1 dominant team (first quarter)
The 230+ bowler had an entering average of 210 bowled in the same center the previous year
The complaining Bowler(s) had respective averages of 212 and 214 for last year in the same league
The main complaining bowlers introduced lowering the handicap at the league meeting (was told this)

Note that I had and entering average of 210 in the same center from the year before. The center changed the pattern this year to make them higher scoring. Of the 2 main players in the complaining 1 has gone up slightly to 215 and the other dropped to 192 whether by bagging or just not figuring out the new pattern yet.

I would suggest with the above facts that if they did not establish the handicap cut point at 214 or higher since they had a 214 in the league the previous year, that complaining about a bowler 20+ pins ahead of the previous years average is unjustified.

JOE FALCO · « **Reply #27 on:** November 06, 2004, 10:40:46 AM »

I agree that a 210 bowler can start shooting 230 .. don't think it's unheard of! Point of the letter as I see it .. EVIDENTLY WE ARE ALLOWING HIGH AVERAGE BOWLERS AN ADVANTAGE .. WHY DON'T WE LOOK INTO A HANDICAP METHOD THAT MAKES US EQUAL .. doesn't say who/why/when .. just we have a problem why don't we look for correction. I think he put it in writing pretty good .. and it should get the league to think .. at least IT SHOULD! Handicap is to make everyone as close to EQUAL as possible .. SCRATCH are for the guys that are out to PROVE THEMSELVES!
--------------------
Hit them light and watch them fight
J O E - F A L C O

stringer · « **Reply #28 on:** November 06, 2004, 10:48:56 AM »

Shotmaker, Have a meeting with officers and captains and find a solution. When these things aren't resolved the result is usually bowlers quitting. I have yet to bowl in a league that everyone was just there for fun. There will always be strong competitors as well as whiners at all levels of bowling. Hey, let them all quit. Thats fine as long as you can replace them. That is no easy task in my area. I am short 8 bowlers in my scratch league and can't fill the spots with even subs who can bowl for free.
You did nothing wrong, but be the bigger man and get a meeting to resolve this issue. It is in the best interest of the league to do so.

SrKegler · « **Reply #29 on:** November 06, 2004, 10:58:37 AM »

Correct me if Iâ€™m wrong but hereâ€™s my understanding.

Bowler A, orginator of the letter was the high average on the league the year before. He initiated the proposal to cut the handicap down to 200 giving himself the extra 15 pins advantage per game. This also helped him in the high game pots, less handicap for the other bowlers.

Unfortunately the changes in the lane patterns and Shotmaker joining the league threw a monkey wrench into his plans. All of a sudden he isnâ€™t top dog anymore.

Now, since the change doesnâ€™t benefit him, he wants it changed so he can gain the advantage again. Lower average (possibly sandbagging?

) extra pins, cinch to win more of the weekly pot money, especially if he can get negative handicapping going, take pins away from people that average higher than his 192, gain pins thru his lower average.

For example Shotmaker shoots 250, subtract 30 pins from his score leaving him with 220.

Bowler A can now shoot 215, his average from the year before, plus 7-8 pins handicap gives him 221-222 to pick up the money.

I don't really think any of the complaints are about the teams winning/losing, just that he can't pick up any of the bracket money the way things are now. I would bet if Shotmaker wasn't in the league and he was top dog with his 215, he wouldn't be complaining, just laughing all the way to the bank.

--------------------
~~~SrK - Have balls, will travel

Spending the kids inheritance one tournament at a time.

Edited on 11/6/2004 12:02 PM

Rileybowler · « **Reply #30 on:** November 06, 2004, 10:59:59 AM »

We have a 100% of 200 and very seldom does the best team win when you have to make up 140 to 160 pins a game sometimes it is very difficult to do . I am on one of the better teams and as your average goes up chances of winning go down however I am not there to just win I enjoy bowling and the followship and trying to get better don"t get me wrong I'd like to win and our team did win one year when my average was 20 or 25 pins lower but when all is said and done I evaluate myself on the way I bowled not on weather or not I or we won
--------------------
Carl

Author Topic: Ban the good Bowler!! Part 3, final update (Read 5693 times)

shotmaker

Ban the good Bowler!! Part 3, final update

Cjeep

Re: Ban the good Bowler!! Part 3, final update

shotmaker

Re: Ban the good Bowler!! Part 3, final update

JOE FALCO

Re: Ban the good Bowler!! Part 3, final update

SrKegler

Re: Ban the good Bowler!! Part 3, final update

JOE FALCO

Re: Ban the good Bowler!! Part 3, final update

JOE FALCO

Re: Ban the good Bowler!! Part 3, final update

seadrive

Re: Ban the good Bowler!! Part 3, final update

SrKegler

Re: Ban the good Bowler!! Part 3, final update

JOE FALCO

Re: Ban the good Bowler!! Part 3, final update

SrKegler

Re: Ban the good Bowler!! Part 3, final update

shotmaker

Re: Ban the good Bowler!! Part 3, final update

JOE FALCO

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stringer

Re: Ban the good Bowler!! Part 3, final update

SrKegler

Re: Ban the good Bowler!! Part 3, final update

Rileybowler

Re: Ban the good Bowler!! Part 3, final update