Post by: shotmaker on November 04, 2004, 01:03:51 PM
Added additional e-mails to bottm of the original post.
Just thought I would share something with all of you for your reading pleasure and feedback. This year I joined a mixed league with my wife and another couple and a nice retired lady. We did really well the first quarter and won 1st place in a 20 team league. The second quarter is a week old and we won 7 of 7. Here is an e-mail that was sent out to the entire league:
quote:
I think there is an unfair advantage by some teams on the league.
Anyone with an average over 200 (the handicap average) is receiving that many extra pins per game and 3 times that many for series. In the past this has only been a few pins over the handicap average and not that big of a deal. With the lowering of the handicap average from 210 to 200 this year it is even more of a problem.
Now I know that people said that handicaps were to high last year and that is why it was dropped to 200. This does not make any sense and the only thing it accomplishes is to allow a larger advantage for people who average over the handicap average.
If someone is averaging 230 and shoots 20 pins UNDER average he still shoots 210 with his handicap of zero. Now in order for me to beat him while averaging 192 I would have to shoot 12 pins OVER average 204+7=211. This is an unfair advantage. The 230 average bowler can bowl 30 pins UNDER average and still not effect his final handicap score. If he bowls average he and his team start with a 30 pin advantage. So you say he will not always bowl average and I agree but if he is absent he will receive a score of 220 giving his team a 20 pin advantage every game. I would love to know I have a guaranteed 20 extra pins per game.
Now, I know people do not want higher handicaps so I propose a negative handicap system. Where if you average above the handicap average you will receive negative pins of handicap. So if a person averages 230, it would be
200-230= -30*80%= -24 handicap.
Now if that person bowls average 230 plus his negative handicap = 206 a much more attainable score for someone with a lower average to beat. Notice that this still will give the higher average bowler a slight advantage but not a huge one. - I know that this used to be just a friendly league but I believe it is becoming more of a competitive league. Teams will not like one team continually winning due to this advantage. - There are other solutions but I think using a negative handicap system makes it fair for everyone.
This is how a series of e-mails started, i'll post the rest of them if I see interest in the subject.
A little backround on me. I joined this league to have a good time, drink some beers, socialize, and spend a night out with my wife. I was tired of ultra competitive leagues. I have been banned from leagues before or forced to leave leagues because handicap crusaders would persuade the league to vote in 100% negative handicaps over 210.
The next few e-mails get better.......
Updated Strating Here.
Here is the reply I sent out to the original e-mail:
quote:
******, If this was so important perhaps it would
have been proper to sign the letter so we would know
who is complaining.
My team and I really don't understand the point of
sending the whining of one person to everyone in an
effort to cause friction in the league and animosity
towards our team. We created our team over the summer
and bowled the summer league ending up in 7th out of
14 teams. We came into this league already bowling
well which may be the reason for our quick start.
To say that a team is successful because of the
bowling of 1 player is wrong. A team has 5 players and
each contributes to a win. Here we have an unknown
person indirectly complaining about me to everyone and
the fact is we have won most of our games by more than
the 20 pins the person feels I have an advantage with.
Successful teams are teams that pick up their spares
and teams where different players have big games at
different times. I'm sure it helps my team from time
to time when I coach them a bit while they bowl,
should I be muzzled because this is unfair too?
Now, I'd like to clear the air about my average. Here
is last year's full year average at Niles Brunswick
Zone for me direct from the ABC website:
League Average: 210
League Name: Grennan Heights Men
League Type: Winter-All Men
Number of Games Bowled: 93
Center Name: BZ Niles
Association Number: 14148
Association Name: CHICAGO METROPOLITAN BA
As you can see I normally would be under some of our
leagues bowlers. This year I happen to be having a
better year, perhaps my best year. Is it right to give
me such a hard time for having a great year so far?
Discussing a change in the rules is fine. The problem
with it is that these type of rule changes cannot be
made during the middle of a season per ABC rules. In
effect this just stirs the pot in the league.
We joined this league to have a good time on Friday
nights and to make new friends. We came in with an
attitude focused on having fun and not focused on
"winning". If anything, the anonymous writer of the
letter is the one taking things too seriously and
being too competitive. Perhaps you should let everyone
know who wrote the letter, or not send it to everyone
in an effort to isolate our team and direct unwanted
animosity towards it.
Regards,
******
..And this was the next e-mail to go through the chain from the unhappy camper:
quote:
To all,
First off my letter was in no way to offend anyone or aimed at anyone person just the average. I think ***** is an excellent bowler and from my limited contact with him a nice friendly guy.
In response to ******'s letter I would just like to say it was me who wrote the original letter. It was not meant to offend anyone person or team. It is not whinning but just voicing a concern. Maybe there are some people that are not aware of the advanage of having an average over the handicap averae. Would it have been better just to sit back and not inquire what could be done about what I feel is unfair. How else am I supposed to find out without contacting a league officer and then in turn how is that league officer supposed to find out if anyone else has the same concern as me. Maybe there are other people that have the same concern as me but did not want to be called a whinner.
Other leagues that are more competive have provisions set up for extremly high average bowlers. Like raising the handicap average or even voting to not allow that person or team to join the league. I am in no way suggesting that anyone with a very high average not be allowed on the league. Far from it. I believe better bowlers make the rest of us better. I fell we just need to even out the playing field for us bowlers that are not as good.
I did not write ******* telling her she had to make a change or threating to quit or anything like that. I just wanted to know if other people felt the same way I do and offer other ways to make the league fair. I am not a student of the ABC rules but doing a quick search on the internet for the rules I could not find anything about not changing the handicap. Maybe there is and if there is ***** could you please let me know where to find it and then I will drop the whole subject and happily compete and have fun against you and everyone else by the current rules. I will also drop the subject if I am alone in this thinking.
I agree with ***** about a winning team where it is a team that wins and they all share in winning or losing, but I would still rather be on the team with a 30 pin advantage.
*** ******
P.S. Since ***** was willing post some of his past bowling information I thought that all of his information from the ABC website should be posted.
At this point all my league information and award scores for the last 4 years was pasted and posted from the ABC website. Almost everyone in the league knows that I have the high series in the house for this year and they also know about some of my championships in another bowling organization from 10+ years ago.
Immidiately after reading this e-mail another came into my mailbox:
quote:
Please everyone do not get pissed or mad at ******.
I honestly believe he joined the league to have a good time. This problem is not ******'s fault. He is playing by the rules as they are set up right now. It is not ******* that is the problem or the issue, I feel it is the handicap average that is the problem. If other people are in agreement maybe we can vote to change things to be as fair as possible to as many people as possible.
Thanks again
***
Tonight should be interesting. This league had been a great way to end the week. Some bowling, socializing, having some drinks and blowing off some of the weeks stress. I have a feeling there will be a different attitude towards us tonight.
I agree with the suggestion made about adding total team average and taking 80 or 90 % of the total team average from a number, probably 1000. My personal opinion is that this is really sour grapes about a guy that can't win in the pots. (Pots are usually won with 270+ with cap)
Edited on 11/5/2004 11:30 AM
Edited on 11/6/2004 5:58 AM
Post by: michelle on November 04, 2004, 09:11:17 PM
Post by: shotmaker on November 04, 2004, 09:15:10 PM
Post by: scotts33 on November 04, 2004, 09:20:02 PM
I think you get my point shotmaker.
Scott
Post by: mumzie on November 04, 2004, 10:48:17 PM
I told them that if they voted that in that I would walk - but instead, why not do 100% to 300???
That way the highest average in the league was no longer an issue.
They didn't do it - but this year I plan to go past their 220 basis, and make 'em discuss it next year!
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"Everyone is in favor of free speech. Hardly a day passes without its being extolled, but some people's idea of it is that they are free to say what they like, but if anyone says anything back, that is an outrage."
--Winston Churchill
Post by: Ishmael on November 05, 2004, 07:09:14 AM
Post by: Pinbuster on November 05, 2004, 07:29:32 AM
Bowler1 has 230 average, Bowler2 has 200 average.
________________________________________________________________
With a 220 base, 80% handicap, and allow negative, each bowls their average.
Bowler1 230 - 8 pins = 222
Bowler2 200 + 16 pins = 216
Bowler1 wins by 6 pins.
_________________________________________________________________
With a 230 base, 80% handicap, and no negative, each bowls their average.
Bowler1 230 + 0 pins = 230
Bowler 2 200 + 24 pins = 224
Bowler1 wins by the same 6 pins. The scores are just higher.
Now should they change the rules now, I don’t think so. But I have been in similar situations before myself. They held off each year and would change the rules for the next season.
The raised the cap from 200 to 210 to 220. Then they raised the handicap from 80% to 85% to 90%. They finally put a team average cap in that just happened to exclude only my team.
I’m sure there probably isn’t even any prize money to speak of involved I know there wasn’t in my case, first paid $35 a person and the last place team got $20 a person.
But even with negative handicap the better bowlers will still have an advantage.
Relax and enjoy the league for what it is, a social gathering and not a serious competition. You can make a decision next year on whether to stay in or quit the league regardless of how this year’s rules work out.
Post by: Waldorf Salad on November 05, 2004, 07:48:29 AM
Banned from leagues? Forced to leave the league due to 100% negative handicap? What is all this about? Handicapped mixed leagues are for all the masses of junky bowlers that average 175 amd 150 and 125 and have no intention of getting better, but keep bowling year after year because they enjoy the recreational-social aspect of bowling. 100% negative handicap sounds like exactly what this league should have. Do you really care if you win some mixed league? You've developed your game to a more advanced level and get to enjoy the game in ways they can only pretend to with handicap.
Will be interesting to see what are in the future emails. I doubt this email, which sounds reasonable and thought-out, is what lead you to post it here.
Post by: shotmaker on November 05, 2004, 08:11:22 AM
With negative cap a high average bowler has no chance. It's too hard to consistently shoot the big numbers, increasing from a 230 average compared to someone increasing their score from a 170's average.
Post by: guzmand19 on November 05, 2004, 08:34:07 AM
It's called sore losers. Unless the league is playing straight match play, the opposing players team can each bowl over average and take out Shotmaker's team. If Shotmaker throws an above average game, it's unfair??? Why? Because he practiced more, worked on his game more, and is a better bowler for it??
Instead of this jerk proposing rules to punish someone better at the sport, they should be spending that time begging Shotmaker for lessons. We have already all decided that the goal in bowling is to do as best as you can, and anything else is bagging. So Shotmaker goes about making shots, and now he should be punished for it?
If the whiner doesn't like it, either work on your game or quit. This clown will feel a lot better if he beats Shotmaker outright instead of using negative points against Shotmaker. The clown already GETS pins in handicap!!
Today's attitude of "It's not fair" is seeping into everything. Like Shotmaker says, its MUCH harder for him to maintain a 230 average than it is a 170 average. The 170 bowler simply has to make a few spares and he is now a 190 bowler. The 230 bowler cannot miss any spares and also must keep carrying. On top of that, he should now be punished??
--------------------
D <~~~~ Used to be terrible wiffing 10 pins. Now through much practice, can wiff any single pin spare at any time.
Darrell Guzman
guzmand19 - Yahoo IM and MSN screen names
Post by: tenpinspro on November 05, 2004, 09:52:17 AM
Why not suggest a simple 80-90 (whatever your % of cap is) to the difference between the two competing teams? This would seem like a good quick fix to the situation without offending anyone. Since there are no individual points to be won, it seems a little odd to base cap off individuals when it's team points only. That's what I've done in a couple of my house leagues to allow "all" levels of players to participate. Just a thought...
Rick
Post by: Ragnar on November 05, 2004, 10:19:01 AM
Personally I think you bowl with a league of whiners.
--------------------
"Things fall apart; the center cannot hold; mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,"
Ragnar sure likes to throw his purdy Uranium Buzzsaw.
Post by: T-GOD on November 05, 2004, 10:32:39 AM
Post by: Pinbuster on November 05, 2004, 10:46:46 AM
80% of 220 with negative
Team1 – Team average is 610
Bowler1 - 200 average 16 pins handicap
Bowler2 - 180 average 32 pins handicap
Bowler3 – 230 average -8 pins handicap
Total Handicap team1 is 40 pins
Team 2 – Team average is 540
Bowler1 - 180 average 32 pins handicap
Bowler2 – 190 average 24 pins handicap
Bowler3 - 170 average 40 pins handicap
Total handicap team2 is 96 pins.
Difference by individual computed handicap is 56 pins.
Team1 average minus Team2 average is 70 pins at 80% is 56 pins exactly the same.
If you are not bowling head to head it makes no difference if you use negative handicap or the difference of team averages.
Post by: ClutchClay on November 05, 2004, 11:14:58 AM
Of course, they can always bring the issue up at next years meeting and then it only takes a majority vote of people at the meeting to change a rule.
--------------------
Regards, ClutchClay
Ball review spreadsheet available at http://www.allBowling.com/downloads/Balls.xls.
Post by: Cjeep on November 05, 2004, 11:41:53 AM
First off working a bowling center I have seen this before. Second off I have been on the recieving end of being kicked off of a league b/c I outaveraged the best bowler by 30 sticks. So with that said.
I think that first your league is not really a league at all. Its a great league for people who want to have fun and enjoy a night out. However, you have those few who think they are going to make a living off of this league and that they want every advantage they can get. Furthermore, if they were so concerned with the league why dont they just got to 100% of 230. I believe abc has started suggesting that. Now for the whinners in your league about people who dont avg as well as you do. First off take it as a compliment. Secondly, IF THEY WANT TO GET BETTER "PRACTICE". I KNOW THATS A VERY HARD WORD FOR MANY ONE NIGHT A WEEK BOWLERS BUT THE 200 DOLLAR BALLS YOU GO OUT AND BY WILL NOT HELP IF YOU ARE NOT PRACTICING. SORRY
Finally man just keep your head up. Realize that the few who are wanting to cause problems are affraid of bowling your team. They want every advantage they can get by being lazy. Instead of working for something they have to penalize the better bowlers for it. Its the way many handicap league work know. They just dont want take responbility for improving themselves.
anyway enough of my ranting
good luck
p.s
just go all out and avg 240 on them. then they will really grip
Post by: shotmaker on November 06, 2004, 05:17:35 AM
When I learned I was bowling next to this guy I was a bit fired up and decided that I would really focus on my game and be serious just to bug him. As a team we wooped it up during bowling and were quite rowdy actually much to the amusement of some of the others in the league who knew why we were doing it. As my strikes mounted the other teams mood dampened and sour faces and rolling eyes after each strike were evident.
By the end of the night we had gone 5-2 as a team, and I shot 804 for my biggest fan who was bowling on the pair next to me. There was a chorus of complaints with my neighbor for the night leading the choir, the other singers were several of the highest average people in the league including one guy who won the doubles pot with me this night.
Can't wait till next week!
Post by: JOE FALCO on November 06, 2004, 06:28:06 AM
1. Why is a BIG TIME BOWLER like yourself doing in a HANDICAP league? If the answer is TO HAVE FUN .. I ask you what do you think the OTHER BOWLERS are in there for .. TO PAY FOR YOUR FUN?
2. Exactly what do you find wrong with THE COMPLAINERS letter? He has made a legitimate complaint. The NUMBERS he reflects in his letter is PERFECTLY RIGHT! There is a DEFINITE ADVANTAGE to the teams that have one or more 200+ average on their roster.
It is recommended that the league be FAIR to all bowlers. (STOP USING SANDBAGGERS AS A CRUTCH). ADD the AVERAGES of OPPOSING TEAMS .. SUBTRACT the difference and that NUMBER is the HANDICAP of the lower AVERAGE team.
You want to show how good you are .. GO IN A SCRATCH LEAGUE! Practice all you want .. go beat the BIG BOYS .. stay out of the HANDICAP LEAGUES unless you are willing to give the lower AVERAGE bowlers a CHANCE.
I give the guy who wrote the initial LETTER a lot of credit. HE'S RIGHT! Look at the numbers he put down .. show where he is wrong! If the letter writer is putting $1 a week into the prize fund it's becoming a DONATION! His chances of beating the team that has 200+ averages is VERY WEAK!
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Hit them light and watch them fight
J O E - F A L C O
Post by: SrKegler on November 06, 2004, 06:56:48 AM
In any case, it is too late complaining now. These are the kind of problems that have to be worked out during the leagues meeting.
There is never going to be a fair handicapping system.
For example, handicapping off of the difference in teams averages takes away the bonus pins for people that average over the handicap floor.
Most leagues though have High Game Handicap series and games for the team and individuals.
Team 1 average 800
Team 2 average 800
Team 10 average 1000.
Suppose team 1 and team 2 bowl each other. Neither receives any handicap since their average is the same. Team 1 bowls their best series of the year. Say 2700. No handicap pins since they were effectively bowling scratch.
Had they been bowling team 10, they would have received 480 pins handicap for a 3180 instead, based on 80% of the difference.
One of the problems I see in league bowling is EVERYONE is looking for an advantage. They REFUSE though to do like Marty did and get out and practice to improve their game up to his level.
--------------------
~~~SrK - Have balls, will travel
Spending the kids inheritance one tournament at a time.
Post by: JOE FALCO on November 06, 2004, 07:17:19 AM
TRUTH is I believe that SHOTMAKER is the COMPLAINER .. not the original LETTER WRITER. The Letter writer is asking for the league to consider a change and offered a solution. Evidently SHOTMAKER likes his advantage.
As to when the change in HANDICAP METHOD can be instituted .. I don't know .. is it a SPLIT league ... don't know what is implied in the ABC rules!
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Hit them light and watch them fight
J O E - F A L C O
Post by: JOE FALCO on November 06, 2004, 07:36:42 AM
- 230 bowler bowls 30 pins under average 200 total with H'cap= 200
- 170 bowler bowls 170 average with H'cap of 29= 197
Do you believe that the 230 bowler should win with 30 under average? What chance does the 170 bowler have? NONE! Do you think this MIGHT DRIVE the lower average bowlers out of the LEAGUE? I think the LETTER WRITER was CORRECT! Be FAIR and stand behind the letter writer!
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Hit them light and watch them fight
J O E - F A L C O
Post by: seadrive on November 06, 2004, 08:20:55 AM
Shotmaker and his team are new to the league. They're not the ones who proposed the handicap system being used. Apparently, it was proposed by others who thought the lower-average teams were getting too much handicap. They wanted to give themselves an advantage, and somehow managed to get the league to vote for 80% of 200, probably because people who are just there for fun didn't take the time to think through the ramifications.
Now that the system they proposed is working more in favor of someone else (shotmaker), they're complaining that it's unfair. This is nothing more than sour grapes. They made their bed, now they can sleep in it!
As I said, shotmaker's team was new to the league, and had very little influence in how the handicap was determined. I'm sure he would have been fine with 100% of 300, since the goal was just to have fun. It's only the complaining of others that has got his juices flowing.
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seadrive
Cogito ergo bowl
Post by: SrKegler on November 06, 2004, 08:41:00 AM
Now is they had lowered the handicap from 90% to 80% that would have made a difference.
I could also understand them bring this up at next years meeting. What are they going to do this year. Change the rules and then refigure the games won/lost on a different scenario. What if Shotmakers teams still wins, keep fiddling with the handicap until the standings change?
I do agree Shotmaker's team has a great advantage but it was the doing of the league, not his team.
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~~~SrK - Have balls, will travel
Spending the kids inheritance one tournament at a time.
Post by: JOE FALCO on November 06, 2004, 09:04:23 AM
quote:
******, If this was so important perhaps it would
have been proper to sign the letter so we would know
who is complaining.
My team and I really don't understand the point of
sending the whining of one person to everyone in an
effort to cause friction in the league and animosity
towards our team. We created our team over the summer
and bowled the summer league ending up in 7th out of
14 teams. We came into this league already bowling
well which may be the reason for our quick start.
To say that a team is successful because of the
bowling of 1 player is wrong. A team has 5 players and
each contributes to a win. Here we have an unknown
person indirectly complaining about me to everyone and
the fact is we have won most of our games by more than
the 20 pins the person feels I have an advantage with.
Successful teams are teams that pick up their spares
and teams where different players have big games at
different times. I'm sure it helps my team from time
to time when I coach them a bit while they bowl,
should I be muzzled because this is unfair too?
Now, I'd like to clear the air about my average. Here
is last year's full year average at Niles Brunswick
Zone for me direct from the ABC website:
League Average: 210
League Name: Grennan Heights Men
League Type: Winter-All Men
Number of Games Bowled: 93
Center Name: BZ Niles
Association Number: 14148
Association Name: CHICAGO METROPOLITAN BA
As you can see I normally would be under some of our
leagues bowlers. This year I happen to be having a
better year, perhaps my best year. Is it right to give
me such a hard time for having a great year so far?
Discussing a change in the rules is fine. The problem
with it is that these type of rule changes cannot be
made during the middle of a season per ABC rules. In
effect this just stirs the pot in the league.
We joined this league to have a good time on Friday
nights and to make new friends. We came in with an
attitude focused on having fun and not focused on
"winning". If anything, the anonymous writer of the
letter is the one taking things too seriously and
being too competitive. Perhaps you should let everyone
know who wrote the letter, or not send it to everyone
in an effort to isolate our team and direct unwanted
animosity towards it.
Regards,
This response, although he states he joined to have fun, does not come across as a bowler who is there to have fun. He seems VERY AGRESSIVE and INTIMIDATING! Challenging as to why the letter wasn't signed and does not address the complaint. I think the method of adjusting the HANDICAP recommended by the writer was still in favor of the HIGHER BOWLER however a little difficult for AUTOMATED SYSTEMS to provide.
I would say that SHOTMAKER seems a little PARANOID .. the original writer talks about "some teams on the league" while SHOTMAKER says "isolate our team and direct unwanted animosity towards it." .. don't think that was a way to respond to a person who sees something in the league that is evidently WRONG and is ASKING for consideration! If SHOTMAKER is NEW in the league .. he certainly isn't MAKING FRIENDS with a response that he put out! Sounds like he's creating a problem with the writer, not addressing the writer's point and where was it mentioned about HIS TEAM?
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Hit them light and watch them fight
J O E - F A L C O
Post by: SrKegler on November 06, 2004, 09:28:19 AM
If someone is averaging 230 and shoots 20 pins UNDER average he still shoots 210 with his handicap of zero. Now in order for me to beat him while averaging 192 I would have to shoot 12 pins OVER average 204+7=211. This is an unfair advantage. The 230 average bowler can bowl 30 pins UNDER average and still not effect his final handicap score.
The key here is the 230 average. Marty is the only bowler on the league with that average. Seems pretty obvious to me who the letter is directed to.
--------------------
~~~SrK - Have balls, will travel
Spending the kids inheritance one tournament at a time.
Post by: shotmaker on November 06, 2004, 10:16:10 AM
- At this time there is only one 230+ average
- There is only 1 dominant team (first quarter)
- The 230+ bowler had an entering average of 210 bowled in the same center the previous year
- The complaining Bowler(s) had respective averages of 212 and 214 for last year in the same league
- The main complaining bowlers introduced lowering the handicap at the league meeting (was told this)
Note that I had and entering average of 210 in the same center from the year before. The center changed the pattern this year to make them higher scoring. Of the 2 main players in the complaining 1 has gone up slightly to 215 and the other dropped to 192 whether by bagging or just not figuring out the new pattern yet.
I would suggest with the above facts that if they did not establish the handicap cut point at 214 or higher since they had a 214 in the league the previous year, that complaining about a bowler 20+ pins ahead of the previous years average is unjustified.
Post by: JOE FALCO on November 06, 2004, 10:40:46 AM
--------------------
Hit them light and watch them fight
J O E - F A L C O
Post by: stringer on November 06, 2004, 10:48:56 AM
You did nothing wrong, but be the bigger man and get a meeting to resolve this issue. It is in the best interest of the league to do so.
Post by: SrKegler on November 06, 2004, 10:58:37 AM
Bowler A, orginator of the letter was the high average on the league the year before. He initiated the proposal to cut the handicap down to 200 giving himself the extra 15 pins advantage per game. This also helped him in the high game pots, less handicap for the other bowlers.
Unfortunately the changes in the lane patterns and Shotmaker joining the league threw a monkey wrench into his plans. All of a sudden he isn’t top dog anymore.
Now, since the change doesn’t benefit him, he wants it changed so he can gain the advantage again. Lower average (possibly sandbagging????) extra pins, cinch to win more of the weekly pot money, especially if he can get negative handicapping going, take pins away from people that average higher than his 192, gain pins thru his lower average.
For example Shotmaker shoots 250, subtract 30 pins from his score leaving him with 220.
Bowler A can now shoot 215, his average from the year before, plus 7-8 pins handicap gives him 221-222 to pick up the money.
I don't really think any of the complaints are about the teams winning/losing, just that he can't pick up any of the bracket money the way things are now. I would bet if Shotmaker wasn't in the league and he was top dog with his 215, he wouldn't be complaining, just laughing all the way to the bank.
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~~~SrK - Have balls, will travel
Spending the kids inheritance one tournament at a time.
Edited on 11/6/2004 12:02 PM
Post by: Rileybowler on November 06, 2004, 10:59:59 AM
--------------------
Carl
Post by: JOE FALCO on November 06, 2004, 11:42:45 AM
--------------------
Hit them light and watch them fight
J O E - F A L C O
Post by: shotmaker on November 06, 2004, 11:46:39 AM
Since we both work very stressful jobs, and don't have much in the way of free time or social circles, we really, really were enjoying our one night together with our (new) friends and having an evening without our cell phones and without the stresses of our "regular" life. When we joined this particular league, we had NO IDEA what the handicap average was set at (didn't care), we still have no idea what the prize fund is (they've never put it out), and we didn't know there were big pots. We acutally bowled a 14 week league in the summer that didn't really have anything in the way of pots, and the prize fund there was a net win of $60 for the entire team for the SEASON! (first place team won $460, last place $400). So to say we were there to bowl for $15 each would be ridiculous. So those few weeks proved to be so much fun our team mates who were not part of the Friday night league (but knew about it) asked if we were interested in continuing with them into the regular season. So we said yes. And now our stress-free night has turned into people glaring and whispering which has taken a whole lot of the fun out of it.
I know how much time and money and effort shotmaker puts into his game to bowl as well as he does. I admire him for it. I find it very distasteful and a big turnoff when people out there want to knock you down for being good at what you do.
Fortunately, many, many people came up to us last night and said they disagreed completely with this one guy's point of view. Many said they were glad shotmaker is in the league because it makes them better bowlers too. And when we bowl against these other teams, rather than being upset or angry, they LOVE to watch him bowl well! They're enthusiastic, they're high-fiving him all over the place and ask him to help them out with a couple of pointers (which he ALWAYS does, very graciously, and then is happy for THEM when his advice works for them). The guys that are complaining are the ones who sit silently in their seats and shoot daggers from their eyes everytime he throws a strike.
I can promise you that shotmaker has no big ego and doesn't join handicap leagues to be a big fish in a small pond. The money isn't THAT good for heaven's sake, and with two PBA titles, what does he need to prove to a bunch of amateur bowlers he doesn't even know? That makes no sense whatsoever. It makes me very unhappy that I can't enjoy bowling with my husband just because he happens to be good and it pisses people off. I can also say that until last night, he was bowling very well without really trying very hard. Having watched him bowl in COUNTLESS PBA tournaments, I know the difference between true concentration, focus and seriousness and just getting out there and throwing the ball while you're playing cards on the side, drinking beer, trying to help your wife (!!), and meeting and enjoying a whole group of new people.
I say let them change whatever they want. It was just the spirit in which these people's complaints were made that makes us unhappy.
Post by: SrKegler on November 06, 2004, 12:05:25 PM
This year they went 80% of 200 because Bowler A complained of the high handicaps. Their change did nothing for the league. Each team, with bowlers under 200 average lost 8 pins in handicap. They only increased the advantage for teams with bowlers over 200 averages. I fell if they are stupid enough to vote something like that in, they get what they deserve.
Can they change it now? NO, not without 100% approval from each team captain.
What Joe fails to understand is the same conditions pervailed last year and apparently the league didn't have any problem with it.
The only time it came into play is this year when a different team has the advantage. Now its a problem.
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~~~SrK - Have balls, will travel
Spending the kids inheritance one tournament at a time.
Post by: LadyW on November 06, 2004, 12:17:28 PM
We've always had a handful of bowlers averaging close to the 220 range.
When using a match play format we set the handicap above the highest entering average and use 80%.
If there's no individual points to be earned then we use the simple method of subtracting one team's average from the other and using 80% of the difference. This method takes all averages into account no matter how high.
Based upon my personal experience whenever 80% handicap is used no matter what the method the higher averaging teams finish in the top year after year. 80% handicap will always favor the higher average bowlers.
The formula used by your league was determined and agreed upon at their league meeting. Like it or not the whiner should just accept it and move on. There is nothing to be gained by complaining. He should just table it for next year's meeting.
The pots on the other hand are run independently and are therefore not governed by ABC rules. The handicap calculation could be changed to 80% of 220 for pot purposes only. IMHO that would help to level the playing field and be a good compromise. Just a thought.
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LadyW....
Edited on 11/6/2004 1:28 PM
Post by: JOE FALCO on November 06, 2004, 12:18:36 PM
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Hit them light and watch them fight
J O E - F A L C O
Post by: SrKegler on November 06, 2004, 12:27:26 PM
Quote
I think there is an unfair advantage by some teams on the league.
Anyone with an average over 200 (the handicap average) is receiving that many extra pins per game and 3 times that many for series. In the past this has only been a few pins over the handicap average and not that big of a deal. With the lowering of the handicap average from 210 to 200 this year it is even more of a problem.
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~~~SrK - Have balls, will travel
Spending the kids inheritance one tournament at a time.
Post by: JOE FALCO on November 06, 2004, 02:40:07 PM
My whole discussion talks to HANDICAP and fairness in a league.
I've explained my point and talked only to a letter that came from someone I don't know and delivered here by still another person I don't know. I talk to the words that were written.
TEAM HANDICAPS should be calculated by SUBTRACTING the accumulated average of OPPOSING TEAMS from each other WITH THE RESULTING NUMBER being the HANDICAP for the LOWER AVERAGE team.
Thinking that I will start REPEATING my thoughts .. I leave you with YOUR THOUGHTS!
Thanks!
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Hit them light and watch them fight
J O E - F A L C O
Post by: ksucat on November 08, 2004, 01:22:55 PM
Shotmaker, you will likely upset a few members of this league just by your very existance. Move on. You are bowling in this league because of the love and friendship of your spouse. Tell the league that you truly do not care about what handicap system is used and that if any changes are made, you will honor the rules. These jealous individuals are likely only 10% of the entire league. Put up with them and enjoy the rest.
If I didn't know better, I would have sworn that a friend of mine here posted it. Two guys are averaging well over 220 bowling with their wives who are hoping to reach 140 by year end. The handicap was changed before they joined the league and this team didn't join even knowing what this was. This league just worked out to be the right location and a night that all could participate.
<rant mode on> Shotmaker will likely get tired of the complaining and not bowl this league next year. This may cause his wife to quit her first league ever and not look for another league to join. Why should a few complainers force them out? These complainers are likely the first ones to tell the propietor that the shot sucks because they can't score. I still say that we make scoring tougher and hopefully force these complainers to get mad enough to quit. Everybody seems so worried that bowlers will quit in droves if we make them work for their scores. Let these wimps quit. Maybe we can build a group of bowling enthusiasts that will enjoy working hard for their success and not complain when poor execution leads to losses. <rant mode off>
Post by: Steven on November 08, 2004, 01:56:50 PM
(1) If you're going to set up a basic handicap system of 80% or 90% of 2XX, you better ensure that "2XX" is higher than any possible individual average in the league. Otherwise, you're going to have people problems down the road.
(2) If the league can't do simple math and get things right, then do what was suggested before -- go 80% or 90% of the difference between the two teams. You can never go wrong with this format.
shotmaker, initiate a league vote to change the format to (2). You'll have fun with your wife, and the other bowlers won't have anything to whine about.
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"You want the truth? -- You can't handle the truth! "
Post by: UCIbowl on November 08, 2004, 01:59:02 PM
if you arent as good as me.... why should you get my money and why should i be forced to give it to you?
my suggestions to you all - get better and you wont have to complain
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REV MASTER
Post by: shotmaker on November 08, 2004, 04:38:08 PM
Just wanting to point out (being new to leagues, I hadn't thought to mention this), but I didn't have an established average until I bowled a few games the first few weeks. But shotmaker's average, as we've noted already, was 210 last year in the same house. He came in with a 210 average. Mr. Complainer's average from last year was 212 in that house. And the other complainer's average was 214 last year in that house. Aren't the rules supposed to be made according to the established averages before the season starts? Now in the first few weeks, due to shotmaker's practicing a lot, and a new oil pattern this year, he starts averaging 232, and the guys who averaged 212/214 last year are now down to 192, the league is supposed to change to accomodate them? I would agree that if they all came in with such a disparity between their averages (shotmaker's 232 to their 192), it would be an issue, but they CAME INTO the season with averages HIGHER than shotmaker's!!! Gotta love it. Again, I say who cares, go ahead and change it, but it's the SPIRIT in which these complaints are made that are bothersome. And it's also very dishonest of the complainers to complain about our team having a "30 pin advantage", when it's really the pots that they're concerned about. When we suggested directly to them that we could switch to a team average, they shot right back, "yeah, but what about the pots?". They're not concerned with their team winning or losing, they're concerned that this year they're not sweeping the pots like they did last year, and they're mad. As SrKegler noted, they didn't count on shotmaker being in the league this year nor did they count on a new oil machine putting out a different pattern when they lobbied for that change in handicap average last year (which, if they had kept up their average from last year, and shotmaker hadn't been around, would have benefitted them GREATLY - now that it's not benefitting them anymore, they don't like it). That's our big problem.
But for those of you who did understand the point, thank you very much. I AM enjoying league a lot, and look forward to it every week. Our team is wonderful, and 95% of the teams we play have been great people. We've made lots of friends, and had lots of laughs and enjoyed lots of good, friendly competition.
It's too bad that there always has to be a couple of spoiled apples to try and ruin the whole barrel!!
Post by: bass on November 09, 2004, 05:10:55 AM
He's a very good player and he can still sack up with the BIG BOYS when he feels that urge.
Maybe some quality time with his family and friends drives him more now.
Let the man have his fun!!!!!!!
Post by: Wylie on November 09, 2004, 06:35:40 AM
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KYLE
IF IT WILL, IT WILL...SO BE IT!!!