Author Topic: Beer Frame EP 2: Open Champs Secrecy (Read 10977 times)

ITZPS · « **on:** March 17, 2017, 09:36:27 AM »

I'm really curious about the feedback I'm going to get on this one . . it's a fairly "controversial" topic and I don't pull any punches on any of it. Thanks for watching.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y2b9Zd0u-Oc

AlonzoHarris · « **Reply #46 on:** March 22, 2017, 05:39:05 PM »

Once the tournament concludes, is there a final standings list published? If so, I would like to go just to see I wasnt last lol.

milorafferty · « **Reply #47 on:** March 22, 2017, 05:52:28 PM »

Quote from: AlonzoHarris on March 22, 2017, 05:39:05 PM

Once the tournament concludes, is there a final standings list published? If so, I would like to go just to see I wasnt last lol.

http://apps.bowl.com/tournaments/usbcopen/national/resultssearch.aspx

You can see how you did for any year.

itsallaboutme · « **Reply #48 on:** March 22, 2017, 06:03:07 PM »

500 may be respectable in the classified division. But I assumed everyone in this discussion has graduated to big girl panties.

I don't understand how adding a division is helping the 2%'ers. It took away half of their gravy train.

northface28 · « **Reply #49 on:** March 22, 2017, 06:11:55 PM »

Quote from: itsallaboutme on March 22, 2017, 06:03:07 PM

500 may be respectable in the classified division. But I assumed everyone in this discussion has graduated to big girl panties.

I don't understand how adding a division is helping the 2%'ers. It took away half of their gravy train.

And it is astounding to watch those arrogant pricks cannabalize each other in brackets.

ITZPS · « **Reply #50 on:** March 22, 2017, 07:15:46 PM »

Adding a division and not releasing the shot is smoke and mirrors for the 95% who think "finally they're making it more fair," without actually doing anything. Yeah, the 2%ers are pissed, but none of them are going to stop going because of it, and more people in the 180-209 average range may start coming to the tournament . . but I've heard they did add more side action. They shouldn't have been allowed to feed on the 185 averages in the first place, but I'm not entirely sure what they did made anything better . .

Quote from: itsallaboutme on March 22, 2017, 06:03:07 PM

500 may be respectable in the classified division. But I assumed everyone in this discussion has graduated to big girl panties.

I don't understand how adding a division is helping the 2%'ers. It took away half of their gravy train.

itsallaboutme · « **Reply #51 on:** March 23, 2017, 07:48:40 AM »

I still don't understand how you can think adding a division for a group of bowlers who essentially had no chance to win or even cash before is doing nothing.

Not releasing the pattern just saves every person working the tournament not to have to hear "this isn't right, it's nowhere close to what we practiced on at home." And not doing the livestream is probably nothing more than a cost saving measure that was disguised as something else.

br822 · « **Reply #52 on:** March 23, 2017, 10:37:10 AM »

This will be my 30th year bowling the OC and changes have happened many times over these years always with the same debates.
1. No PBA members were allowed then changed to exclude only the top 24 money winners from previous years or if you were exempt, to now when everybody is able to compete.

2. Women allowed to bowl, which I feel had the biggest uproar I've ever seen with changes.

All of the changes right or wrong are an attempt to increase the numbers attending.

Not releasing this shot doesn't bother me, when I started going you didn't know til you went (no internet or cell phones) in those days, it was word of mouth.

spmcgivern · « **Reply #53 on:** March 23, 2017, 12:11:04 PM »

Quote from: itsallaboutme on March 23, 2017, 07:48:40 AM

I still don't understand how you can think adding a division for a group of bowlers who essentially had no chance to win or even cash before is doing nothing.

Not releasing the pattern just saves every person working the tournament not to have to hear "this isn't right, it's nowhere close to what we practiced on at home." And not doing the livestream is probably nothing more than a cost saving measure that was disguised as something else.

If it is truly a financial decision to get rid of the live stream, then should that decision be with the bowlers? If USBC wants to increase revenue by subtraction, fine. But if they really want to increase revenue, then sell beer. Instant millions.

But if the removal of the pattern info was in the name of fair competition, then I would guess the live stream is also. It just happens to cheapen the costs as a by-product.

AlonzoHarris · « **Reply #54 on:** March 23, 2017, 12:58:05 PM »

Quote from: spmcgivern on March 23, 2017, 12:11:04 PM

Quote from: itsallaboutme on March 23, 2017, 07:48:40 AM
I still don't understand how you can think adding a division for a group of bowlers who essentially had no chance to win or even cash before is doing nothing.

Not releasing the pattern just saves every person working the tournament not to have to hear "this isn't right, it's nowhere close to what we practiced on at home." And not doing the livestream is probably nothing more than a cost saving measure that was disguised as something else.

If it is truly a financial decision to get rid of the live stream, then should that decision be with the bowlers? If USBC wants to increase revenue by subtraction, fine. But if they really want to increase revenue, then sell beer. Instant millions.

But if the removal of the pattern info was in the name of fair competition, then I would guess the live stream is also. It just happens to cheapen the costs as a by-product.

In that same breath, couldn't they wrap the live stream into a deal with xtra frame somehow? Xtra frame is trying to increase their customer base...this could be something to work with.

ITZPS · « **Reply #55 on:** March 23, 2017, 03:17:19 PM »

If they'd have left the average rules alone, sure, but they're barely 3 weeks into the tournament disqualifying and rerating people. Several people I know are in divisions they shouldn't be in because of the average rules/conversions, and the divisions that have to bother with that stuff are full of people who don't understand OR want to bother with it.

I like adding that division, because like I said, the 2%ers shouldn't have been allowed to feed on them in the first place. In this whole mess, adding a division has really been the one thing they changed that I like or am ok with. The average rules have created a nightmare though and they're doing a piss poor job handling it.

Quote from: itsallaboutme on March 23, 2017, 07:48:40 AM

I still don't understand how you can think adding a division for a group of bowlers who essentially had no chance to win or even cash before is doing nothing.

Not releasing the pattern just saves every person working the tournament not to have to hear "this isn't right, it's nowhere close to what we practiced on at home." And not doing the livestream is probably nothing more than a cost saving measure that was disguised as something else.

itsallaboutme · « **Reply #56 on:** March 23, 2017, 04:17:19 PM »

It is a bowler's responsibility to know the rules. If anyone falsified their average they should be rerated or disqualified. Protecting the rest of the field is more important than keeping one person from getting their feelings hurt. It isn't too tough to verify your average. I'm pretty sure anyone that has ever bowled a city or state tournament has had to do the same thing. I would venture to guess that if you don't want to be bothered with verifying your average then nobody is going to stop someone from saying I don't want to mess with this put me in the regular division.

And show me a tournament that has average divisions that isn't a nightmare or someone isn't trying to game the system.

SMACdi · « **Reply #57 on:** March 24, 2017, 11:33:13 AM »

A couple of points really hit home. Pattern releases don't matter. It's not going to be long, it's not going to the short and it will be flat. Second point is that the vast majority won't see a pattern like the OC pattern but for 9 games a year.

The biggest issue I have is the whole average deal. You have to take the highest of your;
1. Open Championships tournament average based on most recent 27 games since 2008 adjusted utilizing the USBC Sport Average Adjustment Scale (like that will be the highest!)
2. Past three seasons of USBC certified league play (see below)
3. Any league average reported as a Sport or Challenge league will be adjusted utilizing the USBC Sport Average Adjustment Scale (few and far between)
You take the highest of those three and then get placed in the proper division, below 181, 181-209 or over 209.

Knowing the state of the game today (nuclear balls on super soft house conditions) my guess is that the vast majority are going to have a league average that will still place them in the regular division. Look at the league sheet and just count the number of people over 210 now compared to 10 years ago. The number has gone through the roof due to condition and equipment. Those same people are now being lumped into a division due to the inability of USBC to govern the day to day operation. Average integrity starts at the league level, not at the OC. Is it the fault of Average Joe that their center lays down a soft pattern? No way! There aren't that many leagues that have a challenge pattern or even a modified house pattern. The proprietors are in a catch 22. Make the pattern harder and you lose bowlers because they will go across town where everyone bowls well. So is it the proprietor who is at fault for laying down a soft pattern? Again, no way!. The fault lies with the governing body (USBC) by not bring integrity to the day to day operation of each and every league out there.

MI 2 AZ · « **Reply #58 on:** March 24, 2017, 12:24:59 PM »

As to who's fault it is for the easy patterns, the blame can't be placed on the USBC or the proprietors. It is on us, the bowlers. Too many bowlers will refuse to bowl in houses that are tougher or refuse to bowl on sport leagues. They want to see the high scores and thus, a high average.

In fact, it is getting so bad, that bowlers in our house are starting to schedule prebowls when they find out they are scheduled to bowl on our two difficult pairs. We have one pair of lanes that will play drastically different from each other depending on which end of the house the lane machine starts from and another pair that bowlers have a very difficult time carrying on. Lately some teams are scheduling prebowls or makeups to avoid those pairs and they will usually win against the team that did show up to bowl on those lanes since they did their prebowl or makeup on a different pair.

ITZPS · « **Reply #59 on:** March 24, 2017, 04:15:45 PM »

I won't insult your intelligence and assume that you don't know the new average rules or the ways they arrive at your average. These people I know have followed all the rules and one about got rerated on site after "following the rules" which put them in a division they shouldn't have been in. It's not about cheating or falsifying, it's about learning all the rules and following them and still getting harassed because the average rules are inadequate. The loopholes and just plain holes period in the ways they arrive at your qualifying average are what is causing the problems, not sandbagging or cheating.

Quote from: itsallaboutme on March 23, 2017, 04:17:19 PM

It is a bowler's responsibility to know the rules. If anyone falsified their average they should be rerated or disqualified. Protecting the rest of the field is more important than keeping one person from getting their feelings hurt. It isn't too tough to verify your average. I'm pretty sure anyone that has ever bowled a city or state tournament has had to do the same thing. I would venture to guess that if you don't want to be bothered with verifying your average then nobody is going to stop someone from saying I don't want to mess with this put me in the regular division.

And show me a tournament that has average divisions that isn't a nightmare or someone isn't trying to game the system.

AlonzoHarris · « **Reply #60 on:** March 24, 2017, 04:31:16 PM »

Quote from: MI 2 AZ on March 24, 2017, 12:24:59 PM

As to who's fault it is for the easy patterns, the blame can't be placed on the USBC or the proprietors. It is on us, the bowlers. Too many bowlers will refuse to bowl in houses that are tougher or refuse to bowl on sport leagues. They want to see the high scores and thus, a high average.

In fact, it is getting so bad, that bowlers in our house are starting to schedule prebowls when they find out they are scheduled to bowl on our two difficult pairs. We have one pair of lanes that will play drastically different from each other depending on which end of the house the lane machine starts from and another pair that bowlers have a very difficult time carrying on. Lately some teams are scheduling prebowls or makeups to avoid those pairs and they will usually win against the team that did show up to bowl on those lanes since they did their prebowl or makeup on a different pair.

They should have to bowl their makeup or prebowl games on the upcoming pair they would have bowled on then. Make ups and prebowls must be scheduled and so reserve the correct pair accordingly. That's what I would do.

Author Topic: Beer Frame EP 2: Open Champs Secrecy (Read 10977 times)

ITZPS

Beer Frame EP 2: Open Champs Secrecy

AlonzoHarris

Re: Beer Frame EP 2: Open Champs Secrecy

milorafferty

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itsallaboutme

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northface28

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ITZPS

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itsallaboutme

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br822

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spmcgivern

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AlonzoHarris

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ITZPS

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itsallaboutme

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SMACdi

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MI 2 AZ

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ITZPS

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AlonzoHarris

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