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Author Topic: Bigger core does mean more power  (Read 7828 times)

Grayson

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Bigger core does mean more power
« on: March 29, 2008, 06:16:03 PM »
Some companies (at least I think so... right now I can recall only LM's Terminator and Lane#1 indirectly for the BB) say their bigger core designs generate more power.

True?

Well from a simple point of view I say yes.

Just see it this way:

the bowler plays the same speed and revs on two different balls:
one with a small core where most of the core material is concentrated in a small volume
one with a bigger core, where more material is on the "out" side of the ball

now what happens is this:
with same revs the ball with the bigger core needs more energy to get into rotation - meaning it gets more energy - as more material is brought into not only the forward motion by throwing but the rotational motion by revs;

the smaller core does not need so much energy to get the rotational motion as not so much matter has to be moved

you can make an experiment about this:
take two tin cans with exatcly the same size (diameter and volume)
fill both with water and freeze one of them (the trick is to keep the weight equal of both cans while getting one with a fluid and one with a solid material)

Now let both roll downhill and you will see that the one with the water will be faster... the one with the ice needs more energy to get moving as the oce has to be moved... the water not.
well so the one with the Ice should carry more energy when it arrives down there.

so simply said:
the bigger core has more energy (assuming the bowler plays both balls with same speed and rpms)

However how this "more" energy is depleted into the pins and hooking motion is another question.

Did I make a mistake with my idea?Discussion please
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302efi

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Re: Bigger core does mean more power
« Reply #1 on: March 30, 2008, 02:25:12 AM »
Heres the real question:

Does bigger cores raise avgs ?

If the answer is yes, then maybe they do have more power.

If the answer is no, then they prob don't have more power.
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rackattack

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Re: Bigger core does mean more power
« Reply #2 on: March 30, 2008, 12:14:54 PM »
Being a low track bowler, I find cores with a heavy center concentration to have better pin carry for me.

Even if it is true larger cores have more hitting power it does not transfer to my game.So it is of no value to me.

The object is to knock down the most pins not who hits them the hardest.
With the modern game I have dropped down to heavy 14 lb balls to retain the deflection I want for optimum carry so a manufacturer's claim of 20% harder hit would translate to less deflection and less carry for me.

Ii agree with 302.Unless they can prove higher scores the statement means little to me.


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Joe Jr

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Re: Bigger core does mean more power
« Reply #3 on: March 30, 2008, 12:21:44 PM »
We're supposed to listen to someone who only has 3 years of experience in this game?
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J_Mac

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Re: Bigger core does mean more power
« Reply #4 on: March 30, 2008, 12:25:45 PM »
This argument/theory is about as valid as the cgnommadah debate...
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strikealot

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Re: Bigger core does mean more power
« Reply #5 on: March 30, 2008, 12:35:39 PM »
hold the press..you mean cgmaddah...oh only if you believe..

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1MechEng

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Re: Bigger core does mean more power
« Reply #6 on: March 30, 2008, 12:36:08 PM »
More Power?!?! No such thing!!!

Energy is neither created nor destroyed when bowling. (Law of Conservation of Energy, 1st Law of Thermodynamics).

Higher Rg cores will retain more energy as they travel down the lane (because of the higher rotational moment of intertia). But, this retained energy isn't free!!! A higher Rg core is more difficult to get moving at the same rotational velocity (rpm's).

To sum it up ... a higher Rg core is harder to get rolling initially than a low Rg core; but once it is rolled, it will keep rolling longer when subjected to the same friction forces.

Note that bigger core does not mean higher Rg! The Rg is dependent on the volume (incl. the shape of the volume) and the density of the core. The volume might be larger, but the density could be lower, resulting in a large core ball that has a low Rg value. Good examples of large core, low Rg balls are the Columbia Resurgence, Roto Grip Cell, and MoRich LevRg.
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strikealot

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Re: Bigger core does mean more power
« Reply #7 on: March 30, 2008, 12:42:55 PM »
so basically...einstein said it best......E=CG^2
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n00dlejester

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Re: Bigger core does mean more power
« Reply #8 on: March 30, 2008, 02:48:01 PM »
I would assume density and momentum is more important than size in bowling.  Look at a softball vs. a baseball.  The softball is much bigger in size, but the baseball is much heavier and denser.  And if size mattered, I think we'd see a ton more bowling balls with cores like the Roto Grip planet series, where it's the size of the whole ball.
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Grayson

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Re: Bigger core does mean more power
« Reply #9 on: March 30, 2008, 03:50:11 PM »
thanks for ripping my topic...

my experience in bowling has nothing to do with my experience in physics... and I was only asking a question not demanding that you "listen" to me.

2nd: this is 0% to do with CG... nothing!
3rd: I am not trying to "create" energy as I know that this is impossible but when you read carefully I assume about the same speed and revs...
which mean for a bigger core more energy is needed to generate those revs.. as the bowler always does the same he simply DOES.

about size and density... that is the point!

a denser core means at the same weight a more concentrated and smaller core.

4th:
I was never saying a bigger core would score higher... that is another question.


I am a bit pissed and sad as well...
Thought this could get into a nice discussion... but no.

whatever....

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302efi

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Re: Bigger core does mean more power
« Reply #10 on: March 30, 2008, 03:57:01 PM »
quote:
4th:
I was never saying a bigger core would score higher... that is another question.


Isnt that the whole point of "more power" ?

Why else would comapnies advertise more power in their core, if raised scores and avg wasnt the benifit ?

Why else would you want more power if better scores wasnt the result ?


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I will head to my local pro shop. Right after I buy it online.


When faced with a difficult situation, Jesus asks himself, "What would Chuck Norris do?"

Robo-Arm bowlers SUCK...

Grayson

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Re: Bigger core does mean more power
« Reply #11 on: March 30, 2008, 04:09:35 PM »
quote:
quote:
4th:
I was never saying a bigger core would score higher... that is another question.


Isnt that the whole point of "more power" ?

Why else would comapnies advertise more power in their core, if raised scores and avg wasnt the benifit ?

Why else would you want more power if better scores wasnt the result ?


--------------------
quote:
I will head to my local pro shop. Right after I buy it online.


When faced with a difficult situation, Jesus asks himself, "What would Chuck Norris do?"

Robo-Arm bowlers SUCK...

now that is what the companies imply...
You have a point there.
but I said

Quote

[..]

However how this "more" energy is depleted into the pins and hooking motion is another question.

[..]
Quote


... most people herre play with ballspeeds around... well... 13mph.... not above 15...

now I read now and then 17... 18mph... this you will not see with a "rev" bowler here... the "hit'em hard" straight bowlers use this raw power...

I have no clue how this more energy which is stored in the bogger cored ball will be transfered into hook and carry... that is the next question to ask

somone has already stated that those ball do ot work for him...

discuss!

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Sebastian Koch
"Have fun and bowl well!" - Grayson
"Some things are made so even idiots won't fail using them.... But I ask what about the genius?" - Grayson

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Edited on 3/30/2008 4:13 PM

J_Mac

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Re: Bigger core does mean more power
« Reply #12 on: March 30, 2008, 04:11:01 PM »
I didn't say it has anything to do with CG... I'm saying that concerning yourself with this theory is as pointless as worrying about static weights.
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Grayson

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Re: Bigger core does mean more power
« Reply #13 on: March 30, 2008, 04:14:29 PM »
quote:
I didn't say it has anything to do with CG... I'm saying that concerning yourself with this theory is as pointless as worrying about static weights.
--------------------
"A word to the wise ain't necessary -- it's the stupid ones that need the advice."  Bill Cosby
"Never argue with an idiot. They bring you down to their level and beat you with experience."



why is it pointless?

I think it is interesting and easier to prove than the pesky cg debate...

however if you find it not interesting... then why post in the first place?
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Sebastian Koch
"Have fun and bowl well!" - Grayson
"Some things are made so even idiots won't fail using them.... But I ask what about the genius?" - Grayson

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1MechEng

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Re: Bigger core does mean more power
« Reply #14 on: March 30, 2008, 04:24:03 PM »
Grayson -
My apologies if you felt like I came off as "ripping you"; that was certainly not my intent. It looked like you were looking for confirmation on your perception of the physics, which is (for the most part, correct). I was simply trying to explain why your assumptions/guesses were correct. I was also trying to clarify the physics because some people will see "more energy", and draw their own (incorrect) conclusions w.r.t. core shapes and Rg.
To answer your question in the last line of the original post: Yes - your ideas are correct (with the assumptions of same volume, same mass, same velocity).

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