BallReviews
General Category => Miscellaneous => Topic started by: Grayson on March 29, 2008, 06:16:03 PM
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Some companies (at least I think so... right now I can recall only LM's Terminator and Lane#1 indirectly for the BB) say their bigger core designs generate more power.
True?
Well from a simple point of view I say yes.
Just see it this way:
the bowler plays the same speed and revs on two different balls:
one with a small core where most of the core material is concentrated in a small volume
one with a bigger core, where more material is on the "out" side of the ball
now what happens is this:
with same revs the ball with the bigger core needs more energy to get into rotation - meaning it gets more energy - as more material is brought into not only the forward motion by throwing but the rotational motion by revs;
the smaller core does not need so much energy to get the rotational motion as not so much matter has to be moved
you can make an experiment about this:
take two tin cans with exatcly the same size (diameter and volume)
fill both with water and freeze one of them (the trick is to keep the weight equal of both cans while getting one with a fluid and one with a solid material)
Now let both roll downhill and you will see that the one with the water will be faster... the one with the ice needs more energy to get moving as the oce has to be moved... the water not.
well so the one with the Ice should carry more energy when it arrives down there.
so simply said:
the bigger core has more energy (assuming the bowler plays both balls with same speed and rpms)
However how this "more" energy is depleted into the pins and hooking motion is another question.
Did I make a mistake with my idea?Discussion please
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Sebastian Koch
"Have fun and bowl well!" - Grayson
"Some things are made so even idiots won't fail using them.... But I ask what about the genius?" - Grayson
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Heres the real question:
Does bigger cores raise avgs ?
If the answer is yes, then maybe they do have more power.
If the answer is no, then they prob don't have more power.
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quote:
I will head to my local pro shop. Right after I buy it online.
When faced with a difficult situation, Jesus asks himself, "What would Chuck Norris do?"
Robo-Arm bowlers SUCK...
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Being a low track bowler, I find cores with a heavy center concentration to have better pin carry for me.
Even if it is true larger cores have more hitting power it does not transfer to my game.So it is of no value to me.
The object is to knock down the most pins not who hits them the hardest.
With the modern game I have dropped down to heavy 14 lb balls to retain the deflection I want for optimum carry so a manufacturer's claim of 20% harder hit would translate to less deflection and less carry for me.
Ii agree with 302.Unless they can prove higher scores the statement means little to me.
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It's all about the X
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We're supposed to listen to someone who only has 3 years of experience in this game?
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My Vid (http://"http://s37.photobucket.com/albums/e56/RevLefty/?action=view¤t=3.flv")
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This argument/theory is about as valid as the cgnommadah debate...
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"A word to the wise ain't necessary -- it's the stupid ones that need the advice." Bill Cosby
"Never argue with an idiot. They bring you down to their level and beat you with experience."
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hold the press..you mean cgmaddah...oh only if you believe..
http://h1.ripway.com/longlip/tgod.bmp
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More Power?!?! No such thing!!!
Energy is neither created nor destroyed when bowling. (Law of Conservation of Energy, 1st Law of Thermodynamics).
Higher Rg cores will retain more energy as they travel down the lane (because of the higher rotational moment of intertia). But, this retained energy isn't free!!! A higher Rg core is more difficult to get moving at the same rotational velocity (rpm's).
To sum it up ... a higher Rg core is harder to get rolling initially than a low Rg core; but once it is rolled, it will keep rolling longer when subjected to the same friction forces.
Note that bigger core does not mean higher Rg! The Rg is dependent on the volume (incl. the shape of the volume) and the density of the core. The volume might be larger, but the density could be lower, resulting in a large core ball that has a low Rg value. Good examples of large core, low Rg balls are the Columbia Resurgence, Roto Grip Cell, and MoRich LevRg.
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Dan
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Engineering * Bowling = a fun and practical application of rotational kinematics.
Bowling Nerd Herd (TM) Member
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so basically...einstein said it best......E=CG^2
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Hard work pays off in the future, laziness pays off now!
myspace profile...
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GEAUX TIGERS!!! 2 TIME BCS CHAMPS BABY!!!
~<:-)
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I would assume density and momentum is more important than size in bowling. Look at a softball vs. a baseball. The softball is much bigger in size, but the baseball is much heavier and denser. And if size mattered, I think we'd see a ton more bowling balls with cores like the Roto Grip planet series, where it's the size of the whole ball.
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thanks for ripping my topic...
my experience in bowling has nothing to do with my experience in physics... and I was only asking a question not demanding that you "listen" to me.
2nd: this is 0% to do with CG... nothing!
3rd: I am not trying to "create" energy as I know that this is impossible but when you read carefully I assume about the same speed and revs...
which mean for a bigger core more energy is needed to generate those revs.. as the bowler always does the same he simply DOES.
about size and density... that is the point!
a denser core means at the same weight a more concentrated and smaller core.
4th:
I was never saying a bigger core would score higher... that is another question.
I am a bit pissed and sad as well...
Thought this could get into a nice discussion... but no.
whatever....
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Sebastian Koch
"Have fun and bowl well!" - Grayson
"Some things are made so even idiots won't fail using them.... But I ask what about the genius?" - Grayson
(\_/)
(x_x)
c(')(')
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quote:
4th:
I was never saying a bigger core would score higher... that is another question.
Isnt that the whole point of "more power" ?
Why else would comapnies advertise more power in their core, if raised scores and avg wasnt the benifit ?
Why else would you want more power if better scores wasnt the result ?
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quote:
I will head to my local pro shop. Right after I buy it online.
When faced with a difficult situation, Jesus asks himself, "What would Chuck Norris do?"
Robo-Arm bowlers SUCK...
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quote:
quote:
4th:
I was never saying a bigger core would score higher... that is another question.
Isnt that the whole point of "more power" ?
Why else would comapnies advertise more power in their core, if raised scores and avg wasnt the benifit ?
Why else would you want more power if better scores wasnt the result ?
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quote:
I will head to my local pro shop. Right after I buy it online.
When faced with a difficult situation, Jesus asks himself, "What would Chuck Norris do?"
Robo-Arm bowlers SUCK...
now that is what the companies imply...
You have a point there.
but I said
[..]
However how this "more" energy is depleted into the pins and hooking motion is another question.
[..]
... most people herre play with ballspeeds around... well... 13mph.... not above 15...
now I read now and then 17... 18mph... this you will not see with a "rev" bowler here... the "hit'em hard" straight bowlers use this raw power...
I have no clue how this more energy which is stored in the bogger cored ball will be transfered into hook and carry... that is the next question to ask
somone has already stated that those ball do ot work for him...
discuss!
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Sebastian Koch
"Have fun and bowl well!" - Grayson
"Some things are made so even idiots won't fail using them.... But I ask what about the genius?" - Grayson
(\_/)
(x_x)
c(')(')
Unoffical Ballreviews.com FAQ (http://"http://www.ballreviews.com/Forum/Replies.asp?TopicID=74110&ForumID=16&CategoryID=5")
Edited on 3/30/2008 4:13 PM
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I didn't say it has anything to do with CG... I'm saying that concerning yourself with this theory is as pointless as worrying about static weights.
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"A word to the wise ain't necessary -- it's the stupid ones that need the advice." Bill Cosby
"Never argue with an idiot. They bring you down to their level and beat you with experience."
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quote:
I didn't say it has anything to do with CG... I'm saying that concerning yourself with this theory is as pointless as worrying about static weights.
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"A word to the wise ain't necessary -- it's the stupid ones that need the advice." Bill Cosby
"Never argue with an idiot. They bring you down to their level and beat you with experience."
why is it pointless?
I think it is interesting and easier to prove than the pesky cg debate...
however if you find it not interesting... then why post in the first place?
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Sebastian Koch
"Have fun and bowl well!" - Grayson
"Some things are made so even idiots won't fail using them.... But I ask what about the genius?" - Grayson
(\_/)
(x_x)
c(')(')
Unoffical Ballreviews.com FAQ (http://"http://www.ballreviews.com/Forum/Replies.asp?TopicID=74110&ForumID=16&CategoryID=5")
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Grayson -
My apologies if you felt like I came off as "ripping you"; that was certainly not my intent. It looked like you were looking for confirmation on your perception of the physics, which is (for the most part, correct). I was simply trying to explain why your assumptions/guesses were correct. I was also trying to clarify the physics because some people will see "more energy", and draw their own (incorrect) conclusions w.r.t. core shapes and Rg.
To answer your question in the last line of the original post: Yes - your ideas are correct (with the assumptions of same volume, same mass, same velocity).
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Dan
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Engineering * Bowling = a fun and practical application of rotational kinematics.
Bowling Nerd Herd (TM) Member
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Please take into account that filler and core material can have multiple densities which affect many of chracteristics related to more/less "power". And if ball companies have stated numbers up to around 70% of ball reaction is related to surface shouldn't that be more pertinent to energy retention or loss?
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quote:
you can make an experiment about this:
take two tin cans with exatcly the same size (diameter and volume)
fill both with water and freeze one of them (the trick is to keep the weight equal of both cans while getting one with a fluid and one with a solid material)
Now let both roll downhill and you will see that the one with the water will be faster... the one with the ice needs more energy to get moving as the oce has to be moved... the water not.
well so the one with the Ice should carry more energy when it arrives down there.
Have you ever tried to roll a drum of water, or other liquid? Hard as hell compared to a solid material.
Anyway, this isn't a very valid test. The water is going to constantly be changing shape depending on how much speed it picks up. The faster it rolls, the more the mass of the "core" will be towards the outer edge of the can. The ice on the other hand will hold its shape. In bowling terms it would be, Water = High RG (larger core), Ice = Lower RG (smaller core). Which one has more energy at the bottom? The water is definitely going to be harder to stop since it's going to have more rotational energy. But in relation to bowling ball cores, the higher RG piece is going to be harder to rev compared to a lower RG piece.
Core size can be deceiving as you can have a large core with a smaller RG value than a smaller cored ball because of density differences. So really it all boils down to numbers, RG, Diff, and MB.
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-Clint
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Effectively, if physics still apply, core size should not matter. In the end, the RG numbers tell you how the internal weight of a ball with core and filler (even with multiple densities and pieces) is distributed. Size does not matter as long as you do not know the densities of the material.
A large core will distribute the weight towards the cover, potentially rising the RG with all its effects on reaction. If it uses dnese material, the filler will have to be less dense in order to keep the ball in weight limits and legal, so you shift the CG even further away from the center, rising the CG numbers by tendency.
IMHO, core size has no effect on ball reaction or power. It is rather the overall package of core pecs, surface prep and drilling plus the player's style that makes things work - or not. Putting a large core inside of a new ball might create some marketing buzz (also look at the LevRg core, compared to the Vanguard). But physics still apply and I cannot see any benefit (or lack thereof).
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Lets put it that way i cant see how a different sized core can change the including power IF ALL other specs are the same. In fact i can see that it will be very difficoult in our part of Galaxy.
I have a nice question for better understanding:
Lets imagine the biggest core you can build, lets say 99,9% off the ball volume. In my book it looks like my clear spare ball. How would you build a core that would lead to the same specs after drilling using... lets say just 44% of the ball volume?
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it's almost always the indian and not the arrow
yes and i like this one also
don't go for a strike, go for a sure spare, we need 5 pins to win
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You can shift densities and volume and balance them. I am pretty sure (not a methematic genius to prove it) that you could, for example, put a small high density nucleus in the ball middle, and surround it with a lower density material. If the respective volumes of the material are correct, you should potentially end up with the same core specs as before. That's why the RG numbers tell you more than just a look at the core shape.
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DizzyFugu (http://"http://www.putfile.com/dizzyfugu/") - Reporting from Germany
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That is the correct answer and that is why size doesn't matter.
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it's almost always the indian and not the arrow
yes and i like this one also
don't go for a strike, go for a sure spare, we need 5 pins to win
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The power of a ball is based on the transfer its kinetic momentum from the ball to the pins, and momentum is calculated by taking the mass of the ball and multiplying it by the velocity of the ball at impact with the pins. Mass is determined generally by converting the weight of an object, however there is a way to calculate mass based on density (I forgot the formula though).
That being said, having a larger core does not automatically mean the ball will have more momentum and likewise for a smaller core not having less momentum. If the cores are made of the same material then the larger core will generate more momentum. If the cores are different materials then the smaller core could actually generate more momentum if it is of a much higher density than the larger core.
In reality, revolution rates on a ball do not affect its hitting power, only its driving power. Two identical balls thrown at identical speeds, one straight versus one thrown with a high rev rate, will still hit the pins with the same momentum, but the ball with the high rev rate will drive through the pins instead of deflecting off of them, thus resulting in much better pin action and carry.
Every bowler has a balance of speed versus revs for their particular style, and it is different for everyone. In general a low rev bowler will throw the ball slower so that the ball can bite and pick up driving power, while a high rev bowler will throw faster to get it further down the lane otherwise the ball will hook right off the lane.
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15.5# MoRich NSane LevRG
16# AMF Nighthawk (replacing soon)
16# Roto-Grip Neptune
16# Colombia White Dot
More to come!
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Well said Tim! The last few posts cleared up a log of fog I had