BallReviews
General Category => Miscellaneous => Topic started by: Gizmo823 on May 17, 2014, 02:43:10 PM
-
I feel like depending on which booth you go to, some guys seem really good and other guys seem really bad. Had a friend get a ball drilled at the Ebonite booth, told them he wanted long and strong, and they gave him like a 30x3x30 on a Pivot. Ball was rolling in his backswing and he's already gotten rid of it. Had another friend that got a Venom Shock at the Motiv/Visionary booth. I told the driller all my buddy's specs, and when I was telling him the thumb oval, I said it was a .090 oval at 45 degrees, and he didn't know what I was talking about. He asked what the cuts were, and so I said 3 cuts of .021 both right and reverse. He still didn't get it so he just took my buddy over to some weird old fitting ball and did it that way. Then he was talking about layout, looked at my buddy's Revolt, and said, "Oh, we don't want to drill it 'stacked' like this one (apparently stacked means the pin to cg line is parallel to the grip centerline no matter where the fingers are at), we want to kick the cg out 20 degrees." I told him I knew my buddy's PAP if he wanted it, and he said, "Nah, we don't need that." Didn't ask rev rate, speed, anything. Those are the guys you can't tell whether they know what they're doing and are just using old terminology in an attempt to communicate, or if they have zero clue what they're doing.
I can watch somebody throw a ball and drill something for them without getting a PAP or using dual angle numbers because I understand the concepts, but I guess I'm not sure why you wouldn't use them. Drilling a ball for someone to use at nationals, maybe you don't need to go overboard or get ridiculous, but I'd think you'd at least want to know something about the person you're drilling for . .
-
In my opinion the quality of the work for the Ebonite brands has dropped considerably this year. I believe that it is because of a change in operaters.
-
I've always felt that if you have the ability to run a successful proshop then you couldn't take months off to go to Nationals.
So I've always been suspect of the abilities of the booth personnel.
-
I agree with Pinbuster.
-
There have been some really great people in the booths over the years, but it is getting less and less common. On the rare occasions that I do buy something on site, I lay my own stuff out, so all I am looking for is a driller who can get my span and pitches correct. I don't think it is possible for any ball driller to give a guy an optimum layout for his individual game without knowing more about the bowler than can typically be learned by a guy on sight.
-
I had the young guy in the storm booth lay out and drill a Marvel S for me and he did a fantastic job. I was in the back while he was drilling and he was awesome.
-
i have had multiple pieces drilled at the Ebonite both over the years and they have done a prefect job
did not do it this year though
-
Yeah.. Past years K & K ran the Ebonite booth. They were outbid this year and someone else is running it. I've heard multiple reports now around their "service".
I listened to the Visionary spiel as well... we'll drill you up an XX with a arc layout. I think they "Frankie" drill everything with a few standard, flare safe layouts that generally work ok. Generally seemed to be in full on used car salesman mode. No idea what I had, how I threw the ball, or what I needed, but trying to tell me what I should buy and how it will be laid out to work for me. I think it's a shame Motiv is getting pulled into that as well.
Ii visited the Brunswick booth and had a great experience. Talked for a while about scores and equipment. Had them check my fit/span. Suggested a small tweak in pitches/span. Knowledgable, took the time to chat help out.
Scott
-
K & K is pretty good. I have had a lot of their guys in Vegas drill stuff for me, and never had a bad experience. Again though, I am not looking for layout advice, just someone who can hit my span and pitches.
-
I miss Kent Wagner when he ran the Lane Masters booth, he would let me pick out stuff off the rack and even loaned me a Dolly to transport them to my car.
-
I gathered about the same . . The guys at the Brunswick and Storm booths always seem good. Ryan Ciminelli was at the Brunswick booth while we were there, pretty cool to meet and talk to him for a bit, but yeah when a guy says he wants long and strong and you do "stacked leverage" with a P3 hole on one of the stronger balls on the market . .
-
The thing with the booths at Nationals is that most people expect it to be a showcase for manufacturers to expose 500 new people every day to the latest and greatest. Since it is bid out and run by subcontractors it has become a way to move closeouts and maximize profits.
As for staffing of the booths it is hit or miss. These guys usually work 5 1/2 or 6 days a week for not much money and a shared apartment. So it comes down to who will do it, not are you the best we can have there.
As for the long and strong, I can count on one hand the number of people I've dealt with in the last 25 years that didn't ask for this when they walked into the pro shop.
-
Haha and the rest of them ask for the biggest hooking ball you have . .
The thing with the booths at Nationals is that most people expect it to be a showcase for manufacturers to expose 500 new people every day to the latest and greatest. Since it is bid out and run by subcontractors it has become a way to move closeouts and maximize profits.
As for staffing of the booths it is hit or miss. These guys usually work 5 1/2 or 6 days a week for not much money and a shared apartment. So it comes down to who will do it, not are you the best we can have there.
As for the long and strong, I can count on one hand the number of people I've dealt with in the last 25 years that didn't ask for this when they walked into the pro shop.
-
I have had varying degrees of success buying balls at Nationals. One year I bought a ball from the Storm booth, a 16lb Special Agent. They did a good job drilling it, except for the fact that the ball was only 15lbs. It was fine while I was throwing it, but as soon as I switched to something else, I couldn't figure out why my timing was off a little and the other balls felt like they weighed a ton. I have had a few others that turned out fine. Unfortunately, it's a crap shoot. While I used to buy a ball every year when I went to Nationals, over the last 4-5 years, I think I have only bought 1.
I think the biggest issue is, most of the people going to Nationals think these booths are run by the manufacturers themselves. They don't realize that they are subcontracted out. I hadn't realized K&K wasn't running the Ebonite booth this year, as I saw some of the same people there working it. Through the years, as I have learned more about drilling and laying out equipment (by far the weakest part of my game), I tend to think your local driller/pro shop is the best place to use, even for Nationals. They know your game and they can help you pick a ball and a layout that will, theortically, work the best.
-
If you can catch Chris Castro at the Hammer/Ebonite booth. He was one of the goto guys here in Dallas and then last year one of the big Florida shops hired him away to run one of their bigger shops somewhere in Florida and he has been in Reno the last 2 years.
He's the one person I'll deal with when I'm there in a few weeks.
A lot of the top bowlers here in Dallas dealt with him before he moved to Florida.
-
I've always felt that if you have the ability to run a successful proshop then you couldn't take months off to go to Nationals.
So I've always been suspect of the abilities of the booth personnel.
I agree. Bowlers think they are getting great deals and special service when buying equipment at Nationals. What they don't realize is these pro shops operators at Nationals do not know your game, what you regularly bowl on nor do they care like a local pro shop does. They make a sale, drill the ball and send you on your way without a care in the world as in a day or two, you will be on a plane and they will never see you again. Then they bring the ball back to their home pro shop complaining that it does not feel right, ball is not doing what they want it to do. They spend $$$ (and I thank the Nationals booths for giving me more business) to get their equipment fixed and they have spent more money than if they purchased locally in the first place.
-
I guess the question here is what would you expect from the national booth operators?
They cannot go watch you practice on the tournament lanes unless you are personal friends with them and maybe they come watch you during team and drill you up something for singles and doubles. Or maybe watch you on the showcase lanes if they are off the clock.
So you prep for Reno and get there and go practice on the showcase lanes and/or BJ and find out everything you brought isn't working, now what?
At this point, what are your options?
I would assume that is what most a bowler might ask this board for an opinion about.
Most of the booth operators are going to be able to tell what balls have had success by "talented" bowlers who were able to repeat shots and break the lanes down properly.
You can show them your current layouts and what reactions you are seeing on the showcase lanes, and from that they can make a best guess, but again what would you expect?
Most of the time, hopefully you are just altering surface of something you brought.
Or maybe you only brought pin down thinking you needed early roll on the 43 ft team pattern but in practice you find the volume is light enough that you want a pin up option available for the 3rd game.
But if you fly to Reno and take an empty 3 ball bag and your shoes and go to the booth(s) and say drill me 3 balls for the championships, when these guys have never seen you bowl, I think you have unrealistic expectations that you will magically shoot your best scores ever.
I would expect that most if not all of the guys working at the big 3 booths can hit measurements if you have them, and drill up any layout you desire.
But don't ask for a layout because bowler X scored well with it unless you also throw the ball like bowler X.
Some of this has got to be common sense. (I hope)
-
Well yes, but common sense would also be for the drillers to ask a few simple questions, like how they throw the ball. Or like my buddy that got the Shock drilled, I could have told the driller anything he wanted to know, but he almost acted like he didn't want me to tell him. Yeah a lot of bowlers don't know their specs, but you can at least get them to tell you slow, medium, or fast on speed and low, medium, high on revs. I know there are plenty of ignorant people that just walk in and expect miracles, but the driller should at least ask more questions than "what color grips do you want?"
-
I agree 100% Giz.
And I have also been standing there when someone walks up to the guys there and says, I want ball "X" drilled the way you have seen the highest scores bowled.
If someone said that to me, I already know, I am not dealing with someone from the cream of the crop, and more than likely if I start asking too many questions, he'll simply go "never mind" and walk 25 feet down the floor to the next booth and repeat his request where they will simply comply.
As some have said, these guys see 20,000+ bowlers a year. The good bowlers have practiced and come with their equipment prepped, or they know the guys at certain booths and they can lay out a ball well because they know the bowler.
They are not forming a long term relationship in most cases.
In some cases, you are customer #50 at the end of an 8 hour day after they have dealt with some very rude assholes all day and you may not get the best service.
You too have the option to walk 25 feet down the floor.
-
Pro Shop operators make me laugh. ;D
-
Working a booth at Nationals is like drilling on the truck for the PBA, not nearly as glamorous as you expect once all is said and done.
-
I think the last couple of posts have hit on the conundrum that is the booths at Nationals. Customers/Bowlers are expecting the booths to be experts on what ball will work well for them on a pattern that is more challenging than anything the have bowled on since Nationals last year for the majority of bowlers even though they have never seen you bowl before. And the booth operators have to be super nice and do exactly what the customer wants, regardless of how idiotic the request is (see point above about customer expectations) or that customer will walk next door and buy another brand in an heartbeat. Whose right, well the customer is cause they are the one making the buying decision, even when usually they are wrong.
I can only speak for myself, but even when I was making ball purchases at Nationals, it was rarely for a "new" ball. Most of time I was getting another ball within the line I was throwing. For example, I purchased an X-Factor Deuce from my local pro-shop and picked the orginal X-Factor at Nationals. I had a Dynothane Vendetta, and bought the Vendetta Magnum 44 at Nationals. This way I could say drill it the same way as the other ball and allow the differences in cover to be the difference I was looking for. Took the guesswork out of what layout was needed.
But that being said, and based on Gizmo's comments, I think sometimes the workers in the booth leave a lot to be desired at times. Sure, it's not glamorous as itsallaboutme said (which is why seeing Ryan Cimminelli working there surprised me), but it seems like the skill level is not there for the some of the booths there. Like the 15lb ball I got when I wanted 16. Like Gizmo's story where they didn't want the bowlers true PAP and specs to help layout/drill a ball. Too often I hear things like this that turns me off to the shops there. I have spoken to some of the guys there in recent years, just in passing, in "window-shopping" and have asked questions about some of their brands equipment. As I said, ball layout and drilling is the weakest part of my game so my questions were usually out of trying to learn. Some were eager to help and answer my questions in depth, others seemed to either not care or did not know the answers. I can't say which.
-
I was in Reno over the weekend for a tournament(not the Open) and stopped by the stadium to watch Riggs team bowl Friday night.
I throw mostly Motiv, so of course I stopped by the Motiv both. As mentioned above, Motiv is being hosted by Visionary again this year. The only guy in the booth was Frankie May. I wasn't getting anything drilled, but have to say he is one of the nicest guys I have met.
And I would bet that he knows more about bowling than 99.9% of us on this site.
-
Frankie is a great guy. I try to stop in "his" booth every year just to say hi and talk a bit.
Back in the 2000's we needed a bowler and got one the guys out of the Visionary booth.
Frankie came out and tried to help my group out on the lanes.
So we tend to reminisce about that weekend. LOL
-
I've always felt that if you have the ability to run a successful proshop then you couldn't take months off to go to Nationals.
So I've always been suspect of the abilities of the booth personnel.
I agree. Bowlers think they are getting great deals and special service when buying equipment at Nationals. What they don't realize is these pro shops operators at Nationals do not know your game, what you regularly bowl on nor do they care like a local pro shop does. They make a sale, drill the ball and send you on your way without a care in the world as in a day or two, you will be on a plane and they will never see you again. Then they bring the ball back to their home pro shop complaining that it does not feel right, ball is not doing what they want it to do. They spend $$$ (and I thank the Nationals booths for giving me more business) to get their equipment fixed and they have spent more money than if they purchased locally in the first place.
I guess I was the exception to that rule.
When K&K was running the Ebonite Booth in Reno, the guys that ran it were ones I was bowling Adult/Jr. leagues in in Las Vegas, and they were punching up my gear down there, so they had a very good idea on how my fit and game are. So in that aspect, I was rather spoiled.
As far as fit goes, I tell the pro shops I went to to copy the same pitch and span from a ball that I am currently throwing (with the exception of 2 balls, all are within 2 years of being punched up, and have the same), my newest ball being most recent to use. What gets me is layout in relation to the overall motion I want for the ball. That with a new group of people there would be a problem.
At that point, with the exception of the Hammer booth, I think I'll stick with K&K. I may see what the booths have when I made the drive up the hill, but I'm not sure now..
BL.
-
For the record, I don't believe that K&K was outbid for the Ebonite booth this year. I
believe what happened is that they no longer have any kind of exclusive with Ebonite
to promote their products in their Las Vegas shops, so Ebonite rewarded a more
loyal pro shop.