Author Topic: Bowling myths/questions (Read 18522 times)

dR3w · « **on:** May 18, 2015, 12:06:35 PM »

I have two questions about "stuff" that I have heard.

First, do modern urethanes react more like reactive resin balls in regards to oil absorption, or more like old school urethane. To the best of my knowledge old generation urethanes balls did not soak up much if any oil. So if you were to throw older urethane balls, then would track onto the backend. The newer urethanes have cores in them and will (when appropriately drilled), continue to flare on the back end. So do modern Urethanes tend to cause carry-down or behave more like reactive resin balls that tend to soak up the oil?

Second, I hear the term, pushing oil around on occasion. As in a right handed bowler who is throwing left to right, will "push" the oil to the outside. Do reactive resin balls, with all their oil absorption ability, and flare actually push oil around? How does this happen? Is this like a tire going through a puddle where water would be splashed (or displaced) to either side of the tire? When I see articles that show the 3-D changes in oil volume, I never see places where they have more oil at the end of the 3 game squad than they do at the start of the squad. Usually they show a giant valley where oil has been absorbed off the lanes. So what exactly is going on?

JustRico · « **Reply #1 on:** May 18, 2015, 12:34:25 PM »

Absorption today deals more with the additives in the oils than pre-2000...the viscosity of today's oils is much thicker also

charlest · « **Reply #2 on:** May 18, 2015, 12:42:51 PM »

While most balls that are termed "urethane" are probably blends of urethane and resin, the resin is used to reduce the early roll of urethane coverstocks, but the cover is still much closer to true urethane than any other resin. Also the resin with which the blend is made is still a very mild resin version, as far as I have noticed.

So I'd suggest that even today's urethane blends absorb oil extremely slowly. They do act more like plastic in that, if they do pick up the oil, the odds are it will both stay on the ball and/or get deposited further down the lane creating some carrydown. The resin ball will pick up the oil (thus the midlane disappearing on the PBA telecasts with the blue tint in the oil) and absorb it, unless you wipe it off as soon as it comes back from the pin deck. Oil will sit on the urethane ball until you wipe it off, even if it is at home, later that evening.

Back in the mid - late 1990s, I read of a lane oil absorption test, where urethanes and polyester balls absorbed oil at 1/20th of the rate that resin balls absorbed oil. Add to that, that today's (20 years later) resins (seem to me to) absorb oil significantly faster than resins of the 1990s.

dR3w · « **Reply #3 on:** May 18, 2015, 01:04:46 PM »

Quote from: charlest on May 18, 2015, 12:42:51 PM

While most balls that are termed "urethane" are probably blends of urethane and resin, the resin is used to reduce the early roll of urethane coverstocks, but the cover is still much closer to true urethane than any other resin. Also the resin with which the blend is made is still a very mild resin version, as far as I have noticed.

So I'd suggest that even today's urethane blends absorb oil extremely slowly. They do act more like plastic in that, if they do pick up the oil, the odds are it will both stay on the ball and/or get deposited further down the lane creating some carrydown. The resin ball will pick up the oil (thus the midlane disappearing on the PBA telecasts with the blue tint in the oil) and absorb it, unless you wipe it off as soon as it comes back from the pin deck. Oil will sit on the urethane ball until you wipe it off, even if it is at home, later that evening.

Back in the mid - late 1990s, I read of a lane oil absorption test, where urethanes and polyester balls absorbed oil at 1/20th of the rate that resin balls absorbed oil. Add to that, that today's (20 years later) resins (seem to me to) absorb oil significantly faster than resins of the 1990s.

Ok that is good to know. But with a core, and a drilling that promotes flare, a urethane ball will continue to flare on the back end, and thus the carry down would be limited to just the bow-tie rolling on the backend. What looks like a small circle of oil every foot or so. Not like a line of oil that your polyester spare ball would generate?

avabob · « **Reply #4 on:** May 18, 2015, 03:29:22 PM »

Havent tried all the newer urethane balls, but to me the blue hammer acts a lot like the old blue hammer, at least from a shell perspective. Also, the old urethane balls absorbed oil, partly because we kept them with much more surface than is common today. For example Blue Hammer, circa 1988, came at 500 grit box finish. Those balls definitely soaked up oil as can be attested by the fact that they typically changed from powder blue box to more of a sea blue/green with 30-50 games on them. My newer blue hammer actually seems to absorb less oil than my original simply because I keep it at 4000 wet sanded. Still subject to big time carrydown though.

Urethane and Polyester, are both much more susceptible to carry down than the resin balls of today. They push oil down very quickly, particularly with the high volumes that are used today. Resin balls also push oil, but they absorb more of it to lessen the amount carried down. However the big factor that helps negate the carry down impact is the chemical friction created by the resin additive. Resin balls will skid more easily through the head oil, conserving rotational energy. Then the resin additive makes them chain up and change direction more quickly when they come off the end of the buff, even when they do encounter some carrydown. You can often feel the effect of carrydown with resin on flatter patterns, but it doesn't last very long in the transition

BMFOBR · « **Reply #5 on:** May 18, 2015, 08:32:07 PM »

Joe Slowinsky has an interesting article on resin balls and oil movement. Says there is no such thing as carrydown. Its all oil depletion. Google it and decide for yourself. Makes sense. When a reactive ball hits dry, no matter where on the lane, it loses energy. It strikes me as odd that so many people say the lanes they bowl on are dry as a bone. Yet they'll talk about carrydown. Like I said, google it and decide for yourself what is happening.

MI 2 AZ · « **Reply #6 on:** May 19, 2015, 03:05:35 AM »

Quote from: BMFOBR on May 18, 2015, 08:32:07 PM

Joe Slowinsky has an interesting article on resin balls and oil movement. Says there is no such thing as carrydown. Its all oil depletion. Google it and decide for yourself. Makes sense. When a reactive ball hits dry, no matter where on the lane, it loses energy. It strikes me as odd that so many people say the lanes they bowl on are dry as a bone. Yet they'll talk about carrydown. Like I said, google it and decide for yourself what is happening.

Is this the article you meant?

http://bowlingknowledge.info/images/stories/slowinski_oct_for_slowinski.pdf

cheech · « **Reply #7 on:** May 19, 2015, 10:17:21 AM »

i have read that article and i tend to agree with it. if you are bowling with people that are using all modern bowling balls that are resin and flaring, taking into account plastic spare balls going down the lane, the amount of carrydown is neglible to ball reaction. if the lane is transitioning and your ball is not finishing, the ball is burning up rather than hitting carrydown

dR3w · « **Reply #8 on:** May 19, 2015, 10:20:54 AM »

I am very familiar with this article and have preached the results to many people, as I mostly believe that what he is saying is true.

I have been practicing on the nationals shot at our center, and it is pretty clear to me that the snappy backends become very tame after 2 or 3 total games played.

I took a picture of the backend of the lane after me and a friend bowled a total of 12 games across two lanes. What I found most surprising was the obvious spare ball lines of oil on the back end. You can definitely see oil depletion at the back of the lane, but maybe not as strong as I would have imagined. I have heard that those little line of oil have no effect on the ball movement until they build up. How long that takes, and "no effect" are probably pretty subjective.

They are using ice at this center, and have the latest and greatest Kegel oil machine on top of AMF synthetics (Probably 7-8 years old).

Here is the photo in Photobucket

http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g433/dR3ws3r/Screen%20Shot%202015-05-19%20at%2010.54.07%20AM.png

avabob · « **Reply #9 on:** May 19, 2015, 11:20:51 AM »

Sorry, but as a guy who learned on lacquer finish, and had to transition to the much harder urethane finishes in the 70's I totally disagree. There is such a thing as carrydown. Oil depletion in the heads certainly maximizes the impact of carrydown, but it definitely exists. The resin ball not only carries down less oil, but it reacts less to the oil that is carried down. Therefore it is fair to say that oil depletion in the heads is a bigger factor on lane transitions than carrydown with resin ball. Not the same as saying there is no such thing as carrydown.

Anyone who doesn't think there is such a thing as carrydown has never bowled on lanes after a bunch of polyester balls have been used all day.

Steven · « **Reply #10 on:** May 19, 2015, 11:45:36 AM »

Quote from: avabob on May 19, 2015, 11:20:51 AM

Sorry, but as a guy who learned on lacquer finish, and had to transition to the much harder urethane finishes in the 70's I totally disagree. There is such a thing as carrydown. Oil depletion in the heads certainly maximizes the impact of carrydown, but it definitely exists. The resin ball not only carries down less oil, but it reacts less to the oil that is carried down. Therefore it is fair to say that oil depletion in the heads is a bigger factor on lane transitions than carrydown with resin ball. Not the same as saying there is no such thing as carrydown.

Anyone who doesn't think there is such a thing as carrydown has never bowled on lanes after a bunch of polyester balls have been used all day.

Bob is 100% correct.

I asked the same question in-house several months back. So with a wry smile our maintenance guy walked me down to the last 20 feet of the end lane in the house. The visual streaks of oil resulting from carry down were unmistakable.

These myths get perpetrated and take on a life of their own. It's ironic because it's so easy to check out.

Brickguy221 · « **Reply #11 on:** May 19, 2015, 11:50:29 AM »

Quote from: Steven on May 19, 2015, 11:45:36 AM

Quote from: avabob on May 19, 2015, 11:20:51 AM
Sorry, but as a guy who learned on lacquer finish, and had to transition to the much harder urethane finishes in the 70's I totally disagree. There is such a thing as carrydown. Oil depletion in the heads certainly maximizes the impact of carrydown, but it definitely exists. The resin ball not only carries down less oil, but it reacts less to the oil that is carried down. Therefore it is fair to say that oil depletion in the heads is a bigger factor on lane transitions than carrydown with resin ball. Not the same as saying there is no such thing as carrydown.

Anyone who doesn't think there is such a thing as carrydown has never bowled on lanes after a bunch of polyester balls have been used all day.

Bob is 100% correct.

I asked the same question in-house several months back. So with a wry smile our maintenance guy walked me down to the last 20 feet of the end lane in the house. The visual streaks of oil resulting from carry down were unmistakable.

These myths get perpetrated and take on a life of their own. It's ironic because it's so easy to check out.

+2 ... I have to agree with both avabob and Steven

dR3w · « **Reply #12 on:** May 19, 2015, 01:33:04 PM »

Quote from: Steven on May 19, 2015, 11:45:36 AM

Bob is 100% correct.

I asked the same question in-house several months back. So with a wry smile our maintenance guy walked me down to the last 20 feet of the end lane in the house. The visual streaks of oil resulting from carry down were unmistakable.

These myths get perpetrated and take on a life of their own. It's ironic because it's so easy to check out.

I will say that if you read the article, he says that "at 44 feet there is little to no carrydown in todayâ€™s game. In fact, there was less than 2 units of oil past the end of the pattern after 15 games and practice. This is not enough oil to alter ball motion with todayâ€™s covers."

It isn't a question of whether there is oil that gets picked up and moved into the backend, because obviously from visual inspection it is. it is a question of whether that alters ball motion. According to the author it doesn't.

Why not get your maintenance guy to put down a 40 ft, 2 unit shot front to back and side to side. My guess is you will feel like you are bowling in the parking lot.

I agree with avabob in his post, that oil is carried down, but it isn't a factor, or much of a factor. The exception being a group of people using plastic and perhaps urethane ... not something I see in league, or expect to see at Nationals.

MI 2 AZ · « **Reply #13 on:** May 19, 2015, 01:40:10 PM »

Quote from: dR3w on May 19, 2015, 01:33:04 PM

I agree with avabob in his post, that oil is carried down, but it isn't a factor, or much of a factor. The exception being a group of people using plastic and perhaps urethane ... not something I see in league, or expect to see at Nationals.

It seems to be a much larger factor if you are bowling in any senior leagues. Many of them use plastic or urethane because of needing lighter weighted balls or needing something for their slower ball speed.

avabob · « **Reply #14 on:** May 19, 2015, 02:54:07 PM »

I also agree that on longer patterns carrydown is minimal. The reason is that even on very long patterns the oil ends at less than 30 feet. The last 12-18 feet is buff out that in effect carries oil down more evenly than balls will. One reason I really like long patterns is that the transitions are so much simpler. Converesely Short patterns show the biggest impact of carrydown in the initial transition. Cant remember how many times I have seen guys on 38 foot patterns throwing a few shots and saying they have free back end everywhere. That last for a few shots as oil tracks right out toward the break point

Author Topic: Bowling myths/questions (Read 18522 times)

dR3w

Bowling myths/questions

JustRico

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charlest

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dR3w

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avabob

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BMFOBR

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MI 2 AZ

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cheech

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dR3w

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avabob

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Steven

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Brickguy221

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dR3w

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MI 2 AZ

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avabob

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