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Author Topic: Handicap, Scratch have similar issues...  (Read 801 times)

another300

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Handicap, Scratch have similar issues...
« on: September 04, 2008, 04:50:29 AM »
Most everyone complains about unfair handicap and asking what formula for handicap works best.

What about scratch leagues?  If 3,4,5 man(person) teams didn't have caps,  bowlers averaging 230 would all be on the same team. Out of say 30 teams, only 4 or 5 teams would be competitive and always be winning the league.

I bowled(no money to bowl this year)in a 5 person scratch league.  It seemed like every year they would be raising the cap because too many teams had to break up and find new bowlers.  They finally settled on using the previous years league average.

One year the league average dropped like 10 pins.  The center got a new oil machine and it took a while for them to laydown the wall of china shot.  Of course bowlers EGO's took a shot and there was lots of complaining.  The ones who dropped the most pins due to harder lane conditions were those spray and pray bowlers that were not very good spare shooters.

Personally I feel true scratch leagues should bowl on challenging conditions.  Make a bowler pay for a bad shot, force them to be better spare shooters.
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gsback

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Re: Handicap, Scratch have similar issues...
« Reply #1 on: September 04, 2008, 02:25:34 PM »
Couple things.....

There is a scratch league at our center.  Some good bowlers there as they've got prior pros (who just recently lost spots) and some regional bowlers as well I believe.  Funny thing on the oil is that when the house gets oiled from low to high, done during open bowl mind you....no one bowls on lanes 1-10, which is where this league bowls.  Our lanes are oiled and open play still continues to have access to the lanes!!

The league does have a limit of 1000 min for the 5 man team.  Interesting stats:

Team 1 – 1059 average – 7th place overall – 4th place average
Team 2 – 1052 average – 8th place overall – 7th place average
Team 3 – 1065 average – 5th place overall – 3rd place average
Team 4 – 1053 average – 2nd place overall – 6th place average
Team 5 – 1056 average – 6th place overall – 5th place average
Team 6 – 1043 average - 3rd place overall – 8th place average
Team 7 – 990 average – 10th place overall – 10th place average
Team 8 – 1016 average – 9th place overall – 9th place average
Team 9 – 1072 average – 4th place overall – 2nd place average
Team 10 – 1114 average – 1st place overall – 1st place average

There are a couple of surprises, but much is what I would think should happen.  The higher teams will finish higher since it's scratch.....for the most part.  Now, we do see that 3rd place was taken by the 8th place average team.  Not sure on how the points are done, but if done by bowler, this might make sense as there's 1 180 average bowler and the rest are 215 and above.


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Atochabsh

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Re: Handicap, Scratch have similar issues...
« Reply #2 on: September 05, 2008, 01:44:34 AM »
quote:
The league does have a limit of 1000 min for the 5 man team. Interesting stats:


And how do you suppose you ended up with a team that was 114 pins over the cap?  In fact why in the h eck did 90% of your teams end up over the cap?  Obviously there's a problem there.  

Not a scratch league I would join.  Obviously funny business going on there with team entering averages.  

Except it apparent that every one that does this league "knows the game" and plays accordingly.  So much for fair play.  

Erin
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Mark T. Trgovac

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Re: Handicap, Scratch have similar issues...
« Reply #3 on: September 05, 2008, 02:22:51 AM »
If you have a team that has 5 guys with a team average of 1125 (225 a man), and your leagues hdc is based off a 225 ave. This means they get no hdc. Now say you have a team of 5 guys who are right around 195-200 even bowlers. Now these guys who are 195-200 get hdc. However ontop of the hdc they themselfs can also have games where they can shoot well over 225. So this makes this team hard to beat because if they shoot well as a team or even have 1-2 guys go real big. Their hdc is then added and the team who is better on paper (1125 ave team) can and more often can lose. This is because if one or two of those guys has a not to good game even if it is a 215 or 210 games they just gave an extra 10 to 15 pins away because they shot under there 225 ave and they have no hdc to fall back on. So yes on paper the team with the highest ave has the advantage for having the better bowlers. However when you come across the right team who is just pushing 1000 with a team average, you have to account for the human factor for both teams.
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idriveahonda

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Re: Handicap, Scratch have similar issues...
« Reply #4 on: September 05, 2008, 06:15:37 AM »
quote:
quote:
The league does have a limit of 1000 min for the 5 man team. Interesting stats:


And how do you suppose you ended up with a team that was 114 pins over the cap?  In fact why in the h eck did 90% of your teams end up over the cap?  Obviously there's a problem there.  

Not a scratch league I would join.  Obviously funny business going on there with team entering averages.  

Except it apparent that every one that does this league "knows the game" and plays accordingly.  So much for fair play.  

Look at what the original statement says.

It is a 1000 average MIN (minimum).

Erin
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Pinbuster

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Re: Handicap, Scratch have similar issues...
« Reply #5 on: September 05, 2008, 07:11:30 AM »
Agreed Idriveahonda the statement was 1000 minimum, no maximum.

I don’t see any problem. You have 6 teams within 20 pins of average. Bowling scratch against each other the team that wins on a given night is a toss up.

The much better team wins the most, the lowest average teams lose the most.

The hypocrisy still slays me. Bowlers with 200 to 210 averages don’t want to play in a league like this because they feel they don’t have a chance against the high average team (and they don’t have much of a chance).

But in a handicap league situation they want that very dominance over the lower average team.
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A_P_K

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Re: Handicap, Scratch have similar issues...
« Reply #6 on: September 05, 2008, 07:45:39 AM »
Bottom line, either you're going to bowl or not.  If you don't like a scratch league then bowl in a handicap one, or vice versa.  But if you don't like either then don't bowl, or don't complain, because that's the nature of the game.

I don't like handicap leagues, but am not good enough to be competitive in a scratch league, and I've also bowled them too.  I prefer scratch over handicap but there aren't many running around this area.

In our Thursday night men's league the handicap base is 90% of 230, and we gave up a total of around 675 pins, but we still won.

Who cares how unfair it seems, just bowl to win.
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Edited on 9/5/2008 7:46 AM
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mainzer

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Re: Handicap, Scratch have similar issues...
« Reply #7 on: September 05, 2008, 01:03:15 PM »
If think you are good enough to bowl Scratch leagues you shouldn't be crying about being beaten by better bowlers or teams it happens If you are good enough to bowl scratch you are good enough to pull games out. Even good bowlers lose have bad nights and seasons.
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