BallReviews
General Category => Miscellaneous => Topic started by: Gizmo823 on September 16, 2013, 08:47:12 AM
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I know I've posted something about this before, but I wanted to get some input. I honestly don't think it has any chance of happening first of all, so I don't need any "reality checks" so to speak, but I was after some real suggestions as far as how to present it. I want to send something to USBC to see if they will amend a rule or put in a provision for ambidextrous bowlers to be able to bowl with both hands. I don't feel that it's unfair or any different to switch hands during a set or to pick up certain spares than it is to change balls or move where you're playing, it just seems like extra versatility to me. Obviously they can do this on tour, though most don't mess with it.
I fully understand why they don't currently allow it, there's all kinds of problems that arise with averages and handicap, BUT to fix this or allow for it, I have a suggestion. If you are an ambidextrous bowler and want to have the option to use both hands, you waive ever getting handicap, period, for as long as you're sanctioned. Even if you just decide to bowl with one hand in the future, to keep from having a mess figuring something out, if you choose this option, you forfeit handicap for the rest of your "career." Now I think this is a perfectly reasonable proposition, but for some reason I doubt they'll go for it. That's all I got though, I don't have any better ideas or suggestions. I doubt they'd have many people that would go for that in the first place, which would make it easy to manage for them, so it shouldn't be that big of a deal. Somehow though, I think I'll just get a polite email back saying no.
But from their side, what can a reasonable argument against it be? Yeah it creates handicap nightmares, but if you completely remove handicap, there's no issue, right? They can't say it's unfair, because isn't it just as unfair for somebody who can afford equipment to lug 6 new balls in and use them against people with years old equipment? Or for someone that can play 4 different arrows to move around all night while some people are stuck at 2nd arrow? And obviously none of that is unfair, but that's the point. I've put in a lot of time and practice, not to mention a couple seasons, bowling lefthanded, which I don't feel is any different than practicing up with one hand, or buying more equipment, or developing your mental game, etc. I think it's just another way to be versatile, and I'd really like to have that option. Thoughts?
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Not everybody can use both hands, but everybody can buy balls and move to a different arrow! All the money in the world can't buy you the ability to use both hands. I can bowl right or left handed and people try to do it and they don't have the coordination to do so. I've always been able to pick the ball up with either hand and I don't have problems with footwork. They won't go along with it, never have, never will! Just my $.02, Bruce
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Not everybody can use both hands, but everybody can buy balls and move to a different arrow! All the money in the world can't buy you the ability to use both hands. I can bowl right or left handed and people try to do it and they don't have the coordination to do so. I've always been able to pick the ball up with either hand and I don't have problems with footwork. They won't go along with it, never have, never will! Just my $.02, Bruce
Just because not everyone can do it, is not a good reason to not allow it. Not everyone can switch hit but baseball doesn't prevent someone from doing it. Not everyone can bowl two-handed, but it is allowed by USBC. I love the argument GIZMO brings up because I can also bowl with either hand and would love the ability to use either based on the condition, the spare that I am shooting, etc. Of course I also realize that this will probably never be allowed, mainly because of what batbowler mentions and that the ones that can't do will cry foul and that it is unfair. These are the same bowlers who want to compete as equals but don't practice or put in the time that more competitive bowlers do.
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Not everybody can use both hands, but everybody can buy balls and move to a different arrow! All the money in the world can't buy you the ability to use both hands. I can bowl right or left handed and people try to do it and they don't have the coordination to do so. I've always been able to pick the ball up with either hand and I don't have problems with footwork. They won't go along with it, never have, never will! Just my $.02, Bruce
Just because not everyone can do it, is not a good reason to not allow it. Not everyone can switch hit but baseball doesn't prevent someone from doing it. Not everyone can bowl two-handed, but it is allowed by USBC. I love the argument GIZMO brings up because I can also bowl with either hand and would love the ability to use either based on the condition, the spare that I am shooting, etc. Of course I also realize that this will probably never be allowed, mainly because of what batbowler mentions and that the ones that can't do will cry foul and that it is unfair. These are the same bowlers who want to compete as equals but don't practice or put in the time that more competitive bowlers do.
In baseball you are not allowed to switch sides of the plate after the at bat has begun!
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That is not true, you cannot switch sides once the pitcher is on the rubber but can change anytime after that.
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All you have to do is to not sanction your league and include it in the league rules. Your chances of doing that are significantly higher than convincing USBC to amend a rule.
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You are looking at this through too narrow a window. There a multitude of other problems this brings up. What about leages that have an average cap? How do account for the right and left handed averages for the player? What about tournaments that have divisions based on averages? How would you classify someone who might cross divisions between the sides? These are just two things I thought of in a minute or two reading this thread. I am sure there are a lot more.
And just to head off one potential answer....you cannot use a composite average between the two sides. Take a scenario where someone averages 180 LH but 210 RH. That's a 195 composite average. Is it fair to allow them to bowl in a league at 195 if they bowls RH all season, just because they "might" bowl LH? Is fair to the other competitors in the 180-199 average division that they have to bowl against a 210 average bowler just because they "might" bowl LH?
Yes, being able to bowl with either hand is an advantage, and one I don't want to take away from anyone who is talented enough to do it. But you can't allow them to do it at will, as it raises too many issues of fairness. If a person wants to do this, the answer is simple....they establish an average with each hand in the first two nights of league. Then the team average or tournament division can be based on their average for whatever hand they want to use, and you go from there. The other side of the coin is, being separate might be a hige advantage too.....therotically this person can take up two spots on one team, one as the RH bowler, one as the LH bowler. In tournaments, they could bowl doubles with themself, etc..
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Bowling two handed and bowling with both hands is completely different. The two handed release is still technically one handed. People just refuse to accept that fact. There are some that do accept it. There is/are a rule(s) in regards to bowling with both hands and that is to establish an average using both hands; having one average for RH and a completely different average for LH. It has been in place for as long as I can remember. I know of a guy here in my city about 20 years ago that messed up his hand that he usually bowls with and was averaging 210 at the time. He switched to left handed and established a completely different average. Memory serves me correctly he averaged close to 180. Once the injury was healed, he went back to his normal right handed delivery and thus had to use his 210 average again. However, since he had 21 games with bowling left handed, he was in the book twice as both his right handed and left handed averages were reported. As Jorge said......you cannot use a composite average for something like this because it can bring up more issues that resolutions.
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Ok, yeah this is what I was after. I knew there was plenty I wasn't considering, I just didn't know what it was lol. However, I think it all has a pretty easy answer. The reason people would be doing it is for extra versatility, which equals (or should equal) higher scores and higher averages. My right handed avg is 230, my lefty average is 205, but I'm confident that using both at the same time, it would go up to 235 or beyond (the reason for that being raising low games, throwing at 10 pins lefthanded, switching to lefty if the right side gets super burnt, etc). For average capped leagues, it might initially present a problem, but as far as different divisions, if all you have to go off of are a righty and lefty average, since you can use both interchangeably, you automatically go with the higher average. And as part of the no handicap deal, it automatically means bowling scratch and in the highest division possible. I figured you basically have to "screw" yourself and make it as simple as possible to get them to consider it.
You are looking at this through too narrow a window. There a multitude of other problems this brings up. What about leages that have an average cap? How do account for the right and left handed averages for the player? What about tournaments that have divisions based on averages? How would you classify someone who might cross divisions between the sides? These are just two things I thought of in a minute or two reading this thread. I am sure there are a lot more.
And just to head off one potential answer....you cannot use a composite average between the two sides. Take a scenario where someone averages 180 LH but 210 RH. That's a 195 composite average. Is it fair to allow them to bowl in a league at 195 if they bowls RH all season, just because they "might" bowl LH? Is fair to the other competitors in the 180-199 average division that they have to bowl against a 210 average bowler just because they "might" bowl LH?
Yes, being able to bowl with either hand is an advantage, and one I don't want to take away from anyone who is talented enough to do it. But you can't allow them to do it at will, as it raises too many issues of fairness. If a person wants to do this, the answer is simple....they establish an average with each hand in the first two nights of league. Then the team average or tournament division can be based on their average for whatever hand they want to use, and you go from there. The other side of the coin is, being separate might be a hige advantage too.....therotically this person can take up two spots on one team, one as the RH bowler, one as the LH bowler. In tournaments, they could bowl doubles with themself, etc..
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Yeah, that makes sense, I've also had that happen. Got injured, switched hands for a couple months, then went back. Of course it was a scratch league so the handicap thing didn't factor into it, but see my response to Jorge for the other comments. That's what I want to amend though, so you can use whichever hand you want at your discretion throughout the night/tournaments. Yes, two handed bowling is basically still one hand, because there's still one hand that's dominant, but there is a difference. I don't think being able to use a different hand completely is that much different from being two handed, it just offers a different benefit. Two handers wouldn't throw with both hands if it didn't benefit them somehow, so I don't see this being any different. You would still have one average, which is the highest of any average you have, and which would be established the first time you do it, which is no different from a new bowler establishing an entering average. Average cap leagues would just use your highest average either right or left, because if you combine them, you can still choose to use your dominant hand period.
Bowling two handed and bowling with both hands is completely different. The two handed release is still technically one handed. People just refuse to accept that fact. There are some that do accept it. There is/are a rule(s) in regards to bowling with both hands and that is to establish an average using both hands; having one average for RH and a completely different average for LH. It has been in place for as long as I can remember. I know of a guy here in my city about 20 years ago that messed up his hand that he usually bowls with and was averaging 210 at the time. He switched to left handed and established a completely different average. Memory serves me correctly he averaged close to 180. Once the injury was healed, he went back to his normal right handed delivery and thus had to use his 210 average again. However, since he had 21 games with bowling left handed, he was in the book twice as both his right handed and left handed averages were reported. As Jorge said......you cannot use a composite average for something like this because it can bring up more issues that resolutions.
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How many 10 pins do you miss if you think you would make more left handed? If given the choice you would tag in a 205 lefty to shoot a 10 pin than have a 230 average righty shoot it? I could see your argument to shoot a 2-8-10 or the such, but I find it hard to believe you would gain anything switching to shoot a single pin.
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Gizmo,
I see what your trying to do, but I think you aren't looking at it logically. While yes, your solutions might make it fair for everyone else, it doesn't make it very fair for the actual LH/RH bowler. If you go back to my example, why would any person bowl in the over 200 division and bowl LH when they are a much better bowler RH. They are basically throwing away 30 pins a game. And the few spares that they might think about switching hands to make, would you really bring in a bowler 30 pins below your average to make a spare for you, just because they were LH'd? I know I wouldn't so why do it even if that bowler is you. If, in the rare cases you need to make a 2-8-10 to win, it might make sense to do it, but how many times will this be the case? There is no way to do this that is fair to both the rest of the bowlers, and the person bowling RH/LH. Since that is the case, the best way to handle it is the way it is done now.....treat them as 2 separate individuals with 2 separate averages and the person makes the choice of which hand they will bowl with in a sanctioned tournament prior to starting competition ( I think it is fair to let them throw practice with either hand and make the decision after being on the lanes, but it must be done prior to throwing their first ball in competition).
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Not many, but I see your point. But even if my percentage is say 95% right handed on 10s, and 98% left handed, I'd still go lefthanded. Does it make a difference? No, probably not, but yeah some splits would be easier to go at lefthanded.
How many 10 pins do you miss if you think you would make more left handed? If given the choice you would tag in a 205 lefty to shoot a 10 pin than have a 230 average righty shoot it? I could see your argument to shoot a 2-8-10 or the such, but I find it hard to believe you would gain anything switching to shoot a single pin.
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Yeah, I get your points. I'm thinking comfort zones, percentages, etc. Like I said above, if I'm 95 percent on 10s right handed, but 98% left handed, I'm switching hands. If we get a lot of traffic on the right side and ball changes and funky lines come into play, I'd rather switch hands and have a fresh shot left handed. This is definitely not to have to bail me out of something or make up for some versatility I don't have, but when the options are tracked out, wet/dry, soft backends on the right side, but a fresh, clean, predictable shot lefty, the more intelligent choice is to go lefty and shoot 220 as opposed to struggling to a 200 or something on the right, those extra pins could be big for the team game. It's what everybody does on the right side anyway, either switch balls or move inside to fresh oil, I'd just be moving to fresh oil on the left side with a more comfortable line.
And I wasn't suggesting it be mandated for all ambi bowlers, those that want the LH/RH separation would still have it. I suppose too that I'm wanting to combine them to use to more success across the board, I wouldn't just decide to go bowl a tournament only left handed, of course that wouldn't make any sense. I'd still bowl predominantly righthanded, but the reason this comes up is that I've run into several situations where I'd like to switch hands based on what was going on. We had 6 guys on the same pair on a second shift league last week that all play the same part of the lane. Playing 3rd arrow quickly turned into playing 5th arrow, the mids got tight, and the backends got soft. I know for a fact I'd have had an easier shot with more room on the left side, and this is a high dollar scratch league. To make it even crazier, for a couple pairs at the low end of the league, we have a mens league in front of us, then for the remaining pairs on the high end, we have a mixed league in front of us, so the transition can be wildly different. So why not just bowl that league left handed? I still carry a higher average righty, and my spare percentage righty is higher.
My finishing average last time I bowled league lefty was 205, but I started slow, and the last couple months of the season I was around 220, with a couple 700's in there (279/742 high), so I'm currently be a scratch bowler with both hands, I just don't have a sanctioned average that reflects that yet. I suppose that's why I'm pushing for it, because either hand is a perfectly viable option given the circumstances, and I already don't get handicap anyway. USBC would still have to make a rule adjustment though. I also can't just show up and decide which hand I want to use for the night, because it creates average and eligibility issues, and I won't get into that, but also because ambi bowlers use the same sanction number, it's not viewed as a sub situation, it's viewed as a change that must be approved in a league meeting (at least in the leagues I'm in).
You're really correct, a lot of it doesn't make much sense, there's one side it definitely wouldn't be fair for. Yeah, if I enter a tournament, it's going to be righthanded, but if we start moving pairs or get into some bad track burn, even as comfortable as I feel getting deep, it's still going to be a better, more comfortable shot lefty. I realize the percentage of bowlers that are scratch bowlers from both sides is non existant, but there's another guy here in town that's better than I am at it, he's got 300s/800s from both sides. He's mentioned wanting to do the same thing. Am I going overboard mental on this? Probably, but that's just the way my brain works. Most of the time I'm going to be better righty, but if the situation arises where I think, "man, if I could just switch hands it would work so much better," it's gonna drive me nuts. It's like going to a tournament only taking so many balls, practicing, then realizing a ball you chose to leave at home would have been perfect. I'm an efficiency nut, so yeah, it irrationally frustrates me when I see a situation that could be better solved or satisfied with different means or methods, but not being able to utilize them. If the shot tightens up to 2 boards of area, and I know I'd have 4 on the left side, that's where I want to go. Makes no sense to be all prideful about it, especially when money is involved, and it's NO different than moving when the shot begins to break down initially. You could say, "well if you're really good you could just stay in the same spot all night." Yeah, you could, but why would anybody do that?
I get your points and I'm not trying to shut you down, just trying to explain where I'm coming from. Your points are great, and it at least helps me understand better why USBC most likely won't go for it, I hadn't thought about the majority of that.
Gizmo,
I see what your trying to do, but I think you aren't looking at it logically. While yes, your solutions might make it fair for everyone else, it doesn't make it very fair for the actual LH/RH bowler. If you go back to my example, why would any person bowl in the over 200 division and bowl LH when they are a much better bowler RH. They are basically throwing away 30 pins a game. And the few spares that they might think about switching hands to make, would you really bring in a bowler 30 pins below your average to make a spare for you, just because they were LH'd? I know I wouldn't so why do it even if that bowler is you. If, in the rare cases you need to make a 2-8-10 to win, it might make sense to do it, but how many times will this be the case? There is no way to do this that is fair to both the rest of the bowlers, and the person bowling RH/LH. Since that is the case, the best way to handle it is the way it is done now.....treat them as 2 separate individuals with 2 separate averages and the person makes the choice of which hand they will bowl with in a sanctioned tournament prior to starting competition ( I think it is fair to let them throw practice with either hand and make the decision after being on the lanes, but it must be done prior to throwing their first ball in competition).
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I just don't believe a 205 lefty would have a higher conversion percentage on any single pin spare than a 230 right hander.
And there is no chance you spend most of the night bowling right handed and then pick up a ball left handed and make more spares without practice shots.
I bowled against Bryan Alpert who switched to left handed and was competitive in regionals. When he went back to right handed he didn't shoot any spares left handed, and he was way higher than 205 left handed. I think you believing you would go to 235 using both hands is crazy.
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Really its one of those thing that wouldn't bother me too much either way, but just looking at it from a USBC, tournament director, PBA, etc. point of view it would just make things much simpler to say that if you start a game right handed you bowl that game completely right handed.
It keeps the rules easy and clean for you and the people you are bowling against. I have a strange feeling if they allowed you to switch back and forth they would spend half your matches dealing with allegations of cheating.
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The being able to use either hand during a game has been voted on at the ABC and USBC many times. It is always defeated rather soundly. Always seems to have some discussion and bottom line from my memory is an unfair advantage for the few that can do it.
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How many balls would have to bring to league/tournaments? As the balls would have to be drilled lefty and righty. If something happens on the right side and you want to move to the left, you would need something more than the ball you throw at 10 pins.
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I have bowled with both hands during a season but of course not on the same night. I don't think it creates an advantage that should be illegal. Being able to use either hand is because you're either ambidextrous or you practice a lot to become proficient to use either hand. Being good at both hands is not an dirty trick. It is only a handicap nightmare if you do it to affect your average (sandbag). Funny though you can bowl two-handed and also with your dominant hand and that's okay. I have a guy in my league that is bowling two-handed (just starting and is horrible at it and also with his dominant (right) hand. He bowls poorly two handed and then uses only his right hand when he needs to bowl well. Which type of bowling should really be illegal?
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Gizmo,
I understand your points as well.
I have had a teammate in college who could do this. And I saw first-hand the advantages and disadvantages of it. He was forced to use one hand or the other at the start of any tournament. His averages were like the ones in my example. having watched this, even if it was legal, I don't see an advantage in switching hands to shoot a spare. Unless you average the same and have the same skill level with both hands ( a very rare occurance I would think). Perception may be it is easier to make a 10 pin LH versus RH....but that is not always reality. You will always have a better side, probably your dominant side. There are reasons your other hand has a lower average. I am guessing part of it is more missed spares (along with maybe less strikes). If bowling in league was like it was in High School and college, where you could substitue people in and out, would you honestly bring in someone to shoot your 10 pin if they had a 10-20 lower average than you, regardless of the hand they threw with? I know I wouldn't. So why switch hands for it? I know my old teammate, had to always throw a ball or two before he was comfortable with the other hand....especially if it had been a little while since he switched. You won't have that luxury if you switch in the middle of a game. While the Human brain is a wonderous thing, I find it hard to believe it can turn itself around to be in time and on pace with the opposite hand after rolling a number of shots with the other. JMHO.
As far as the twohanded bowler.....that to me sounds like sandbagging. If he wants to learn to bowl twohanded, go for it, but that is what practice is for. If he continues to bowl a game or two twohanded and then switch to one handed to improve his scores.....it needs to be documented so his average can be rerated if he bowls any handicap tournaments. Similar to someone bowling in a non-Sports certified league on Sports patterns.
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Jorge,
I couldn't agree with you statement about the two handed bowler. I think it's sandbagging also. I guess I'll find out this week as we bowl against him. People have already brought out the rule book and are finding it tough to do or say something because it seems to be ok in there. Have to see how this plays out.
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Basketball players can drive the lane and switch hands in mid-air for a layup. Basketball players are allowed to dribble with both hands as well.
We allow wrist supports, changeable soles & heels on shoes, many people don't know how to keep score, and lanes can be damn-near blocked/walled....yet bowlers who can roll it with either hand are shunned. It doesn't make any sense to me at all.
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Just look at all the pro's that do the same thing. Oh, wait none of them switch hands while bowling on tv. If there was a benefit, I'd think the pro would be doing it! Just my $.02, Bruce
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There's a lot more good points in there. Yeah I suppose that thinking that I could just change hands late in the second game or third game and be warm and ready to go is ignorant, and yes I have considered the extra equipment issue. However, I take 2 balls just about everywhere to begin with. I also have practiced using both hands at the same time, and I suppose that might have been where it started.
It appears the general concensus is that it's better the way it is, and you guys all make some good points. How about this instead, what do you think about at least seeing if they will sanction the two different hands separately so I could "sub" for myself without creating a huge problem? Thoughts?
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Join the PBA, you can throw it however you want.
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Thanks for the constructive input, as always.
Join the PBA, you can throw it however you want.