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Author Topic: USBC discipline for sandbagging  (Read 17282 times)

Dogtown

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USBC discipline for sandbagging
« on: September 13, 2013, 10:12:17 AM »
Has anyone seen USBC discipline someone (or team) for sandbagging.

We have a team on our men's league that is intentionally throwing off.  Guys who average 200+ shooting less than 100 multiple games.  Throwing plastic balls all game.  Picking off 10 and 7 pins ON THE FIRST BALL.

Our whole league was up in arms last night because it has gotten so obviously.  What do you do?  What does USBC need to show proof?  This is my first year on the league.  Apparently this team has won the league before by sandbagging the first half, then showing up the second half.

 

dwandel

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Re: USBC discipline for sandbagging
« Reply #31 on: September 15, 2013, 07:08:28 AM »
  Here is a link to Caps website about how they addressed the local sandbagging issue and the process that they used.  http://www.ncausbca.org/bowlmag/archives/rerate_q-a.pdf
 
  Most tournament rules allow the director to re rate a bowler if they see fit.
  If you read the article  about how Cap went about it you will see that they had supporting documentation to support the re rates. From what I have seen normally all we hear about is someone is sandbagging but nothing to support the accusation.
   And as far as league bowling goes a new rule was put in place last year to allow the board of directors to re rate a bowler with 2/3rds vote. there is no proof needed to do that. Just enough team captains agreeing that someone is a sandbagger.

trash heap

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Re: USBC discipline for sandbagging
« Reply #32 on: September 16, 2013, 01:33:18 PM »
You can't go after someone who just has a bad night or a few bad nights. You have to establish that the bowler is doing this on purpose.

Example: The first year as a secreatary of a league, my average dropped considerably. Those first several weeks were tough on me. I was averaging in the the 160s. My average in other leagues (as a sub) that year was over 200. As soon as things settle down, my average did go up. 

It would have been real easy for someone to point me out. I was clearly 30 plus pins below my average. It was not intentional. I was trying my best, I just had a lot of distractions those first several weeks with the new duties of the position.

There are times you can clearly see when someone is cheating, but most of the time its hard to find the true sandbaggers. They are sneaky. They come out for the big money, and then squirm back into their hole again. They purposely don't win every time. They don't want to call attention to themselves. It's all about the money.
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ccrider

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Re: USBC discipline for sandbagging
« Reply #33 on: September 16, 2013, 03:08:24 PM »
Valid point Trash Heap. Some of us are up and down, depending on what is going on in our "real world" outside of bowling.  Last year I averaged 184, but on a good week, or a week where I have had time to practice spare shooting, I generally will average 210-220. It has everything to do with how much I have had time to practice, and whether I am making spares. Fortunately, the people that I bowl with realize my tendencies and do not raise the issue of sandbagging with me. Right now I am struggling to average 170, and feel like I am going to break through any minute.

12XSECH

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Re: USBC discipline for sandbagging
« Reply #34 on: September 16, 2013, 03:39:04 PM »
Our league has a 10 pin drop rule. If you avg 200, you cant go lower then 190 no matter how bad you bowl. Plus throw them out of the league, take a league vote and get rid of them.

kidlost2000

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Re: USBC discipline for sandbagging
« Reply #35 on: September 16, 2013, 10:48:15 PM »
Trash Heap is it sandbagging to shoot 250 then two sub 100 games using plastic and shooting at corners pins? This is what is being done. 210 plus average bowlers selectively using plastic over their other equipment after a good game.
…… you can't  add a physics term to a bowling term and expect it to mean something.

txbowler

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Re: USBC discipline for sandbagging
« Reply #36 on: September 17, 2013, 12:24:24 PM »
Is it sandbagging to choose to use your league as a practice session?

There is no rule against it.  Sure it is highly unethical.  (or is it)

But as a bowler (not saying me specifically)  who has no time to practice due to outside constraints, what are you supposed to do?  It is a catch 22 of sorts.

You use league to practice and better your game, but you score terrible, you are told you are sandbagging.  But you are trying your best to improve your game, you just are not trying your best to score that night.

kidlost2000

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Re: USBC discipline for sandbagging
« Reply #37 on: September 17, 2013, 04:20:35 PM »
Yes practicing shooting at 7 pins and 10 pins on your first and second rack is sandbagging. Especially after bowling a high game. It isn't practice. Try that this week in league for two or three games and tell us how that goes.

The league is pretty upset because this is going to be a 3rd your and this year is more obvious then ever. It is my first year on the league and find it amusing. The team captain was an on staff regional player for years who never averaged over 210 for a reason. Then over the past few years averaged 170s and went and cashed big in larger regional tournaments. He never bowled the local ones because they would rerate him. Then they still vote him in the local HOF.

Some people thrive on cheating when they can't do it otherwise I guess.

…… you can't  add a physics term to a bowling term and expect it to mean something.

itsallaboutme

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Re: USBC discipline for sandbagging
« Reply #38 on: September 17, 2013, 05:19:44 PM »
It's pretty clear, right in the USBC rule book-

Rule 17 – Grounds for Disciplinary Action
17a. Unfair Tactics
An individual can be charged with attempting to gain an unfair advantage in league or tournament play for the following reasons:
1. Directly or indirectly tampering with lanes, pins or bowling balls so they no longer meet USBC specifications.
2. Misrepresenting an average to gain a greater handicap, or qualify for a lower classification in an event.
3. Establishing an average below the player’s ability to gain an unfair advantage in handicap or classified competition.
Penalty: Loss of games, prize winnings, league removal (see Rule 115a or Rule 115c), and subject to suspension from or denial of USBC membership.
NOTE: A complaint may be filed only in the current season or the season immediately following the alleged violation. The complaint shall be in writing and detail the charges against the member(s) and the USBC rule(s) involved. The complaint shall be signed by the person(s) making the charges and filed with USBC Headquarters.

txbowler

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Re: USBC discipline for sandbagging
« Reply #39 on: September 18, 2013, 03:22:24 PM »
First off let me say I personally 100% agree that shooting at 7's & 10's off of full racks is wrong.  That is a violation of rule 17.

But so is the following technically in my opinion according to rule 17.

You show up for league and the pro shop is finishing up your new ball.  You don't get to throw it in practice.  You decide to pull it out for the fill ball of the 10th frame of game 1.

You just violated rule 17.  Why, because you could have thrown the strike ball you were using to maximize score.  By changing balls to an unknown reaction, you are (potentially) not maximizing score and thus lowering your average in that league.

And yes I realize that I am taking this example to an extreme.  And that is what could happen the first time a player is called out for violating this rule.  He will walk up and down the lanes looking for small other violations to get even.

These guys have "some major stones though".  It's very blatant.

Most sandbaggers are more quiet about it.  Shoot the 3-6 pocket instead of the 1-3 for a game, or intentionally go through the nose all night.  Shoot at the 3 instead of the 10 pin when they leave it, so it looks like they were "trying".

Picking off the corners of full racks for a game?  I would have recorded it on video and sent it to Arlington.  Kind of hard to have an excuse for it.

milorafferty

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Re: USBC discipline for sandbagging
« Reply #40 on: September 18, 2013, 03:41:01 PM »
Then you should include a PITA rule during the league meeting. If bowler if found guilty of being a PITA by a majority of the board, kick them out.  ;D

First off let me say I personally 100% agree that shooting at 7's & 10's off of full racks is wrong.  That is a violation of rule 17.

But so is the following technically in my opinion according to rule 17.

You show up for league and the pro shop is finishing up your new ball.  You don't get to throw it in practice.  You decide to pull it out for the fill ball of the 10th frame of game 1.

You just violated rule 17.  Why, because you could have thrown the strike ball you were using to maximize score.  By changing balls to an unknown reaction, you are (potentially) not maximizing score and thus lowering your average in that league.

And yes I realize that I am taking this example to an extreme.  And that is what could happen the first time a player is called out for violating this rule.  He will walk up and down the lanes looking for small other violations to get even.

These guys have "some major stones though".  It's very blatant.

Most sandbaggers are more quiet about it.  Shoot the 3-6 pocket instead of the 1-3 for a game, or intentionally go through the nose all night.  Shoot at the 3 instead of the 10 pin when they leave it, so it looks like they were "trying".

Picking off the corners of full racks for a game?  I would have recorded it on video and sent it to Arlington.  Kind of hard to have an excuse for it.
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txbowler

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Re: USBC discipline for sandbagging
« Reply #41 on: September 18, 2013, 03:44:33 PM »
+1,000,000,000,000,000   ;D

Then you should include a PITA rule during the league meeting. If bowler if found guilty of being a PITA by a majority of the board, kick them out.  ;D

First off let me say I personally 100% agree that shooting at 7's & 10's off of full racks is wrong.  That is a violation of rule 17.

But so is the following technically in my opinion according to rule 17.

You show up for league and the pro shop is finishing up your new ball.  You don't get to throw it in practice.  You decide to pull it out for the fill ball of the 10th frame of game 1.

You just violated rule 17.  Why, because you could have thrown the strike ball you were using to maximize score.  By changing balls to an unknown reaction, you are (potentially) not maximizing score and thus lowering your average in that league.

And yes I realize that I am taking this example to an extreme.  And that is what could happen the first time a player is called out for violating this rule.  He will walk up and down the lanes looking for small other violations to get even.

These guys have "some major stones though".  It's very blatant.

Most sandbaggers are more quiet about it.  Shoot the 3-6 pocket instead of the 1-3 for a game, or intentionally go through the nose all night.  Shoot at the 3 instead of the 10 pin when they leave it, so it looks like they were "trying".

Picking off the corners of full racks for a game?  I would have recorded it on video and sent it to Arlington.  Kind of hard to have an excuse for it.