Author Topic: LEAGUE DUES DISCUSSION -- PLEASE READ/RESPOND! (Read 6406 times)

I_Bowl4Money · « **on:** March 31, 2010, 02:58:53 AM »

Everyone,

I am doing a study about league bowling and the cost breakdown of league dues. Please post your league information in the format shown below (if you can do a similar breakdown for a couple years back that would be great, otherwise current information will suffice).

If you can't do a break down, just having your comments would be helpful too:

Bowl America Dranesville - Sterling, VA
Tuesday Boys Night Out League @ 6:30pm

2006-07: (18 Teams x 4 bowlers)
- Weekly Dues = $21.00 per bowler
o Lineage = $11.80 (3.93 per game = $29,736/season)
o Sec. Fee = $0.50
o Prize Fund = $8.70
- League Prize Fund Total = $21,924

2007-08: (21 Teams x 4 bowlers)
- Weekly Dues = $23.00 per bowler
o Lineage = $11.95 (3.98 per game = $35,133/season)
o Sec. Fee = $0.50
o Prize Fund = $10.55
- League Prize Fund Total = $31,017

2008-09: (21 Teams x 4 bowlers)
- Weekly Dues = $25.00 per bowler
o Lineage = $12.10 (4.03 per game = $35,574/season/)
o Sec. Fee = $0.50
o Slush = $0.25 (returned to prize)
o Prize Fund = $12.15
- League Prize Fund Total w/slush = $36,456

2009-10: (24 Teams x 4 bowlers)
- Weekly Dues = $25.00 per bowler
o Lineage = $12.45 (4.15 per game = $41,832/season)
o Sec. Fee = $0.50
o Slush = $0.25 (returned to prize)
o Prize Fund = $11.80
- League Prize Fund Total w/slush = $40,488

Projection 2010-11: (24 Teams x 4 bowlers)
- Weekly Dues = $25.00 per bowler
o Lineage = $12.70 (4.23 per game = $42,672/season)
o Sec. Fee = $0.50
o Slush = $0.25 (returned to prize)
o Prize Fund = $11.55
- League Prize Fund Total w/slush = $39,684
--------------------
Stephen Hahn

Bowl4Money.com - Owner
http://www.bowl4money.com

Spares Pro Shop - Pro Shop Technician
http://www.sparesproshop.com

cappy718 · « **Reply #16 on:** March 31, 2010, 01:41:47 PM »

]

quote:

I don't understand why more houses won't drop it a little to save the leagues.

We had a new house open in our area this year and I think that's how our house kept some business. But the new house wants like 20 bucks a night for bowling with 12 dollar lineage fees. Why do that when you can bowl for 10 bucks on base? Didnt make much sense to me when I heard the prices. If you bowl for money, I guess I can see your point, but I'm not that good and bowl to enjoy the game.

For me, cheaper is better

qstick777 · « **Reply #17 on:** March 31, 2010, 01:53:03 PM »

quote:
Just to play devil's advocate: When we play fantasy baseball, or fantasy football or etc., when we don't finish in the top 4 or 5, we get NOTHING. And we always go back! I don't understand how people who finish near the bottom of a league want half their money back. I don't bowl to win money. I bowl to bowl, if I win great, if I finish out of top 5-6, I lost.
--------------------
A half ten is not a great shot. No, you shouldn't have carried it.

Interesting concept, and not too far off from a league in which I used to bowl.

35 weeks @ $20 per week. 1st place was $1100 per person, 2nd was $840, 3rd was $700 - so 3rd place got their money back.

Last place (#26) was $28 per person.

These were the prize fund choices: http://qstick777.homestead.com/PrizeFund_choices.pdf

You'll notice the winning choice had the highest payouts - for both the top and bottom!

qstick777 · « **Reply #18 on:** March 31, 2010, 01:58:23 PM »

quote:
Steve .. FOR DISCUSSION! Yes I do think the lineage fee you are paying in that league is CRAZY! BUT .. tell me why the first place team has to get 2x their cost as prize fund? If you cut 1st to $1000 per man they earn a little over a hundred per man .. BOWL FREE AND EARN A HUNDRED .. are they making a living on this? It is a LEAGUE! Cutting the 1st 4 places will provide more for other finishes!
--------------------
J O E - F A L C O

RIP Thong Princess/Sawbones

Very true, and that is the way my current league is setup. 1st place team will get their money back and make $100 per person.

1st: 800/per
2nd: 600/per
3rd: 400/per
4th: 300/per
5th: 250/per
after that it drops $10 per person, down to last place (#24) which is $65/per.

Sounds to me like Stephen's league is a little more competitive, almost like a commercial league. Those types of leagues usually want the top heavy payouts.

Stan · « **Reply #19 on:** March 31, 2010, 07:08:13 PM »

bowl400, my comments were directed at only secretary/treasurer duties. If you are running sweepers and brackets, then you deserve to be paid for doing it. As far as complaints, I know, the secretary takes most of the shots from the bowlers. If you have a good president, he/she should take all the complaints and not you. I know is easier said then done.

Either way, it sounds like you are doing way more than normal and in your case, the $.50 is seems fair.

frontiers2 · « **Reply #20 on:** March 31, 2010, 08:03:18 PM »

hey gang,

here's something for ya to gnaw on.. in the league im on, we pay $19.00/wk, and only 3.50 goes to the prize fund and the rest goes to the house for lineage/stats, etc. go figure.
--------------------
~keep it between the gutters~

current arsenal:
hammer jigsaw corner
2 hammer sauce (2 different layouts)
hammer raw hammer psycho
hammer raw hammer burn
banger fantasy (spare)

JOE FALCO · « **Reply #21 on:** March 31, 2010, 09:21:47 PM »

Frontier .. I've been bowling continually for a LONG TIME .. what you define would STOP ME!
--------------------
J O E - F A L C O

RIP Thong Princess/Sawbones

Matt Fortney · « **Reply #22 on:** April 01, 2010, 09:40:59 AM »

quote:
hey gang,

here's something for ya to gnaw on.. in the league im on, we pay $19.00/wk, and only 3.50 goes to the prize fund and the rest goes to the house for lineage/stats, etc. go figure.
--------------------
~keep it between the gutters~
current arsenal:
hammer jigsaw corner
2 hammer sauce (2 different layouts)
hammer raw hammer psycho
hammer raw hammer burn
banger fantasy (spare)

Wow, that's outrageous! On the couples league we bowl on we pay 12 a week, and something like 9 of that goes to the house. so 3 bucks a week per bowler into the prize fund, plus the half of 50/50 that no one wins, which might be about 30-40 bucks a week. also, the secretary's "salary" is something around 600 a year.

It's about 13000 a year for the bowling alley, and about 4300 a year for prizes. It's a pretty small league though.

Matt

I_Bowl4Money · « **Reply #23 on:** April 01, 2010, 09:51:08 AM »

Thank you everyone for the continued discussion. I've definitely considered dropping my secretary fee but for a couple reasons I've not yet made that decision.

1) Our sanctioning is paid with a Money Order so I incur the cost everytime I have to get a money order created.

2) I pay for postage when I send in the sanctioning which is usually anywhere from 5-7 times a season with various subs coming in to bowl.

3) I print all the standing sheets for the teams, I also provide a special payment sheet along with the money envelope, I run brackets, I do all the treasury work and pay for all the materials for the start and finish of the league.

Now the true point of this discussion has to do with the lineage and the fact that bowling in our area is not about leagues anymore and that is part of the reason why sanctioning is down so badly with USBC. People just can't afford to bowl in league and I don't think that is right.

@JoshY - this is part of the reason I posted the topic. We have a yearly agreement that is signed with the center. I received that the other day and refused to sign it until I could talk with the bowlers and then with Center Management and eventually Corporate.

It is a competitive MEN'S league so the top heavy prize fund is not uncommon. It is a matchplay league so bowler 1 vs bowler 1, etc. and team as well.

I again, appreciate everyone's input, because I'm trying to find a way to combat Bowl America regarding this hiking of prices. We are the second largest league in the center with 24 teams, the largest is also feeling the same way I am and they have 34 teams - competitive mixed.

Regards.
--------------------
Stephen Hahn

Bowl4Money.com - Owner
http://www.bowl4money.com

Spares Pro Shop - Pro Shop Technician
http://www.sparesproshop.com

qstick777 · « **Reply #24 on:** April 01, 2010, 01:48:50 PM »

quote:
Thank you everyone for the continued discussion. I've definitely considered dropping my secretary fee but for a couple reasons I've not yet made that decision.

1) Our sanctioning is paid with a Money Order so I incur the cost everytime I have to get a money order created.

2) I pay for postage when I send in the sanctioning which is usually anywhere from 5-7 times a season with various subs coming in to bowl.

3) I print all the standing sheets for the teams, I also provide a special payment sheet along with the money envelope, I run brackets, I do all the treasury work and pay for all the materials for the start and finish of the league.

Now the true point of this discussion has to do with the lineage and the fact that bowling in our area is not about leagues anymore and that is part of the reason why sanctioning is down so badly with USBC. People just can't afford to bowl in league and I don't think that is right.

@JoshY - this is part of the reason I posted the topic. We have a yearly agreement that is signed with the center. I received that the other day and refused to sign it until I could talk with the bowlers and then with Center Management and eventually Corporate.

It is a competitive MEN'S league so the top heavy prize fund is not uncommon. It is a matchplay league so bowler 1 vs bowler 1, etc. and team as well.

I again, appreciate everyone's input, because I'm trying to find a way to combat Bowl America regarding this hiking of prices. We are the second largest league in the center with 24 teams, the largest is also feeling the same way I am and they have 34 teams - competitive mixed.

Regards.
--------------------
Stephen Hahn

Bowl4Money.com - Owner
http://www.bowl4money.com

Spares Pro Shop - Pro Shop Technician
http://www.sparesproshop.com

Stephen, I agree the lineage is getting a little out of hand.

The lineage increases are an interesting concept, aren't they? Especially since Bowl America only recently raised their open bowling prices. I believe they held their "after 5pm" prices (still $5/game?) steady and raised the day time rates $0.20-0.50 per game.

Even more interesting since they also recently lowered their "bowl all night" price from $9.99 (for a while it was $8.99) to $6.99.

http://www.bowl-america.com/special699.asp

At the predicted $4.23 per game lineage, you aren't getting much of discount over the regular rate. And don't forget that league rewards give you 3 games for the price of 2 during practice, making it even cheaper.

I know when I started leagues in 2004 lineage was a little over $11, and now it is right around $12.

There aren't a whole lot of options in the area, so I guess you don't have much pull other than to threaten to leave the center. Unless the center has a bunch of leagues trying to take your spot, you could always try to negotiate a lower lineage.

I find it funny that they advertise the "bowl all night" program as being cheaper than the movies. I know that I can go to the movies for cheaper than $20-25. I might even be able to include popcorn/snacks/drinks.

I drive by BA-Chantilly just about every day, and it's basically dead during the day. I wonder how crowded they would be in the evening if the leagues left? AMF in Centreville chased away their leagues a few years ago - they did okay for a little while with the after work crowd, but it wasn't long before their parking lot was empty.

We can see how much the center makes on lineage from the leagues, but I wonder how much they make from food and drink sales. It's hard to get anything to eat that is cheaper than $5, and that doesn't include a drink. Large soda is over $3 - pitcher of beer is $12.

trash heap · « **Reply #25 on:** April 01, 2010, 02:03:05 PM »

I understand your concern with lineage, but what can you do? That part is out of your hands. I for one would never bowl in a league where I am paying a $100 a month. Leagues with high payouts like yours, brings more temptation for bowlers to sandbag.

I have talked to sereral bowlers in leagues like this, and have admitted to keeping average down. So the league becomes about who can cheat who the best.

I_Bowl4Money · « **Reply #26 on:** April 02, 2010, 02:42:40 PM »

We have developed rules that help keep sandbagging to a minimum. Allbeit you can't truly prove it but needlesstosay it does happen.

We go 3 years back on book averages and there is a 10 pin drop rule.

The biggest issue is the increase in lineage with nothing to show for it. My bowlers experience bad approaches, issues with offset racks, lighting, cleanliness, consistent conditions, A/C functionality, broken fans, broken intercoms, low pin volume causing slower racking, etc.

All of that is there, I've address the issues to specific lane by lane detail, yet nothing has been done.

It infuriates me when the manager expresses he hopes we've seen the increase in customer service when there truly isn't any.
--------------------
Stephen Hahn

Bowl4Money.com - Owner
http://www.bowl4money.com

Spares Pro Shop - Pro Shop Technician
http://www.sparesproshop.com

Spider Ball Bowler · « **Reply #27 on:** April 02, 2010, 04:14:47 PM »

I'd rather bowl a league where there is no prize fund. Just pay the lineage, and then get in to jackpots if you choose. Have trophies for first place or something but that's it.

The prize fund isn't really worth it in most leagues anyway.
--------------------
Ahhh Disco Biscuits!

MichStBwlr2009 · « **Reply #28 on:** April 02, 2010, 10:04:15 PM »

Unfortunately, you really don't have a choice as far as the lineage goes, considering Bowl America has a monopoly (along with AMF centers) in the NOVA area.

In my opinion, the lineage is obsurd. How can you charge league bowlers almost $4.50/game when they commit to bowling every week for 32 weeks? Have you talked to the center about lineage? (I suppose they will give you the run around that it is a corporately set amount) Not blaming you, just saying I don't understand how they can run the $6.99 All-u-Can-Bowl specials (for 2 or 3 hours) every weeknight, then charge league bowlers near that amount PER GAME. I would think they could shift some of that burden from league bowlers to open bowlers, but I am sure they figure they are GUARANTEED lineage fees from league bowlers, and profits from open bowling are sporadic at best.

Anyways, the information you needed:

The Lanes at Fort Meade-Fort Meade, MD
Monday Bud Scratch Trios @ 7:00pm

2009-2010 (22 Teams x 3 bowlers)
-Weekly Dues = $22.00 per bowler
o Lineage = $12.00 ($3.00 per game/4 games per week = $25,344/season)
o Sec. Fee = $0.50
o Prize Fund = $9.50
- League Prize Fund Total = $20,064
--------------------
Dave Lughermo
Michigan State University Bowling Alumni

cappy718 · « **Reply #29 on:** April 03, 2010, 12:54:05 AM »

Still absurd!!! The lane I bowl at has lunch specials at 1 buck a game during lunch. I go at least once a week to practice 4 games or so. I know ppl can get competitive/greedy, but dang....over 12 bucks for lineage is insane. I hope all you bowling center managers on here see this....

Author Topic: LEAGUE DUES DISCUSSION -- PLEASE READ/RESPOND! (Read 6406 times)

I_Bowl4Money

LEAGUE DUES DISCUSSION -- PLEASE READ/RESPOND!

cappy718

Re: LEAGUE DUES DISCUSSION -- PLEASE READ/RESPOND!

qstick777

Re: LEAGUE DUES DISCUSSION -- PLEASE READ/RESPOND!

qstick777

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Stan

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frontiers2

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JOE FALCO

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Matt Fortney

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I_Bowl4Money

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qstick777

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trash heap

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I_Bowl4Money

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Spider Ball Bowler

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MichStBwlr2009

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cappy718

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