BallReviews
General Category => Miscellaneous => Topic started by: northface28 on July 02, 2014, 10:10:49 PM
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So I was notified that Brunswick will not allow bracket or pots including strike pots to be run on their property beginning August 1st, anyone else hear this?
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I havent heard that. Very interesting
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Yeah, I bowl with an employee and he said its "liability issue/gambling".
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I believe it may go by what state you are in. That has been an issue in the past here in New Jersey. Not any more though.
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Can you (or someone designated in the league) just run them "underground" or "offline" w/o actual house involvement? Seems, at least on the surface, like it would be easy to do. I don't see how there could be much of a problem if the house OR whoever is running them isn't raking the game. :-\
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I believe it may go by what state you are in. That has been an issue in the past here in New Jersey. Not any more though.
A few years back, NJ forced centers to enforce no 50-50s; it was considered gambling. Now they seem to have the same basics, but the winner has to either hit the head pin, get 9 or get a strike depending on what their league decides.
There's a way around everything.
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Can you (or someone designated in the league) just run them "underground" or "offline" w/o actual house involvement? Seems, at least on the surface, like it would be easy to do. I don't see how there could be much of a problem if the house OR whoever is running them isn't raking the game. :-\
In the centers in NJ where I have bowled, most times brackets & pots are not run by the centers, but by individuals. They make no secret of it, but it's not shouted from the rooftops.
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yes they consider it gambling and are accountable for it on their property. It should all be taxed and accounted for . Thousands of dollars go untaxed from brackets and pots.
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I'm sure it has to do with the Brunswick -> AMF merger purchase going on.
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I'm sure it has to do with the Brunswick -> AMF merger purchase going on.
Theres a Brunswick/AMF merger?
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I'm sure it has to do with the Brunswick -> AMF merger purchase going on.
Theres a Brunswick/AMF merger?
There's been some rumors about this on Facebook. I have yet to see a credible source with any info on it though.
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Pretty hard to call brackets gambling. If so, then any tourney format with prize money is gambling. Brackets are just an eliminator tournament with a blind draw for opponents.
Only time I have ever seen this issue raised is with Calcuttas, where non participants are allowed to bid on the bowlers.
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Brackets are gambling and your winnings are potentially taxable. Thats the case at the USBC open championships
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I'm sorry (for lack of a better opening), but that is the weakest shit I've ever heard. No brackets!? WTF. PLUS the house isn't even taking a rake. Let me guess, if I have a home poker tournament (legal w/no rake) I'd have to report the winnings? I don't see how a home poker game be legal but brackets not.
Like I said, there HAS to be a way around it. Take it underground and offline.
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Brackets are gambling and your winnings are potentially taxable. Thats the case at the USBC open championships
Yeah the USBC's kill me every year on the brackets. I think the thing that bothers me is let's say I put in $1500 to play and I win $4500. I get taxed on the $4500 and not the actual profit of $3000.
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Actually, brackets are taxable as misc income, but that does not make them gambling. My bracket money gets reported to me on the same line as my other winnings from USBC and megabuck tourneys. I file a Schedule C tax return listing bowling as my profession. I am allowed to take all appropriate business deductions including entry fees against the bracket and/or regular tourney winnings. I can only show net losses under very narrow circumstances, but anyone may attach a schedule C taking the position that bowling is a hobby which does allow you to offset entry fees. One word of warning however. You are required to pay self employment on your net income under this scenario. Finally, don't blame the USBC. The IRS started requiring them to report gross prizes quite a few years ago, and they are not allowed to report your winnings net of entry fees.
Life is a gamble, so under that term brackets are gambling, but under most state law definitions that I am familiar with they would escape the legal term of gambling because the player has enough control over the outcome to take them out of the gambling category.
Brunswick has the right to not allow brackets in their houses, but the gambling rationale is either an ignorant position, or a convenient excuse.
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If you put in $1500 and cash for 4500 and pay taxes on the $3000 you need a new accountant. Find an accountant that bowls or is familiar with the circumstances and you will never pay any taxes on any bowling winnings again unless you have a big hit. You need to keep some simple records of your plane tickets, hotels, meals, mileage, practice and equipment. When you keep some records you realize how hard it is and how good you have to bowl to make money over the course of a year.
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Good points. That is why I said business deductions. I tried to keep it simple, because my main point was that you have to file a schedule C to get any deductions.
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Good to know. My current accountant isn't much help is this area. I only run into paying taxes on winnings a couple times a year with the USBC's being one of them. But with the 5K+ bracket winnings this year, I need to get that erased (so to speak) Thanks
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Since you are in the business you can get away with deducting much more than those that are just doing it as a hobby. When I was bowling a lot my tax guy was a CFO and also a PBA member so he understood the expenses involved in bowling. Keep good records for the year and always pay for the room and gas. I've never roomed with anyone or carpooled as far as the IRS is concerned. If you haven't been keeping mileage go back and make a log for all the tournaments you've bowled this year and google the mileage. $.56 a mile adds up fast.
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You can deduct travel expenses, lodging, equipment you purchase during the year, and any expenses associated with other tournaments that you entered with a profit motive. Technically you should also report prize money from those other tournaments too, even though you wont get 1099's from local tournaments.
If you can show a true profit motive, and reasonable expectation of making a profit you can even show a loss in some years. IRS rule of thumb is that you should show a profit in 3 out of 5 years to not be considered a hobby that would not allow loss years.
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Radical in RI is involved in a bowling center. The rules are much different when your income comes from within the industry and not having to prove that bowling is more than a hobby.
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Brackets are gambling and your winnings are potentially taxable. Thats the case at the USBC open championships
Yeah the USBC's kill me every year on the brackets. I think the thing that bothers me is let's say I put in $1500 to play and I win $4500. I get taxed on the $4500 and not the actual profit of $3000.
And if you do your taxes properly (you know, keep records and all that fun stuff that people hate doing), then you should be able to offset your expenses. I know LOTS of poker players that do the exact same thing every year (to include persons who had stake interests...or at least where the person they staked cuts a 1099- I have been lucky not to receive the 1099 prior to this year but that may change after what they had to send me earlier this year after they had an exception week on my 5% buy-in).
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You only are required to pay tax on the profit from bracket winnings, not the gross winnings. As a CPA, tax preparer, and bowler, I get this question every year.
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So, if three bowlers put up ten bucks each on a three game series, with the winner to take all of the thirty bucks, that's not gambling? In what state?
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So, if three bowlers put up ten bucks each on a three game series, with the winner to take all of the thirty bucks, that's not gambling? In what state?
No rake, based on skill...in many jurisdictions, that isn't gambling. Much depends on how the precise definition appears in the Code FOR that jurisdiction though.
By example, in Texas, the hypothetical meets two of the three required prongs for a defense to a charge of gambling, with the third being dependent on whether you can persuade a Court that, by virtue of the league's contract with the center, those lanes were "a private place" for the purpose of TPC 47.02.
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So, a wager placed on any skill based sports event would not be considered gambling in Texas. Neat.
Brackets are not totally skilled based. Much depends on who you are randomly matched up with.
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So, a wager placed on any skill based sports event would not be considered gambling in Texas. Neat.
Brackets are not totally skilled based. Much depends on who you are randomly matched up with.
The first prong is that it must be 'a private place.' Motion to suppress would surround that element of the equation. From there, you get into rake or benefit to ANY person other than the persons involved in the wager and from there, the issue of 'but for skill or luck' all other things are equal.
And, in your scenario to which I responded, there was no randomness- it specifically said three people on a three-game series.
All of this comes back to why I said one needs to know the language of the laws in the specific jurisdiction...what is legal on one side of a State line may be contrary to law a few feet away. Everything in between is shades of gray. Little about law is black and white- and it is in all those grey-scale tones that I get paid to dabble...
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Blind draw in a bracket is no different than blind draw for opponent in a match play elimination format. Agree with Michelle that local laws can be all over the place, but the fact we have never heard of any crackdown in any jurisdiction related to brackets says a lot. Different story on Calcuttas which involve a pool of people including non participants bidding on bowlers ( or golfers ). Lots of states don't allow them.