Author Topic: Can someone explain hand positions to me? (Read 3179 times)

mumzie · « **on:** April 19, 2004, 03:50:52 AM »

I understand the finger dancing thing (pinky in, out, tucked, not tucked, index finger in, out, etc), and I understand that different hand positions (thumb position on a clock, cocked wrist, uncocked wrist, etc). But how do I know when to try one vs another???

In other words - when is it better to stay more "behind the ball" or "up the back", and when is it better to come some around the side (NOT around the top -NEVER that...)

I use these types of adjustments regularly, and I thought at one time I understood them, but it seems as though lately I'm just guessing. Any inputs?

janderson · « **Reply #1 on:** April 19, 2004, 07:10:01 PM »

Mumzie - I can only offer a small amount of "general" advice on this topic.

If you're playing a deep inside line that requires you to swing the ball a bit, an "up the back" release is typically not desirable as it can cause the ball to flatten out and not finish enough leaving weak corner pins (six pin lying in the channel in front of the 10 for righties, 4 pin lying the channel in front of the 7 for lefties). Plus a more side-positioned (as far as the fingers go) release helps most bowlers to "feed" the ball to the right (for righties) or left (for lefties) more accurately. A more "on the side" release also creates some natural length/skid which is good when you need to swing the ball out.

The opposite can be generally true as well. Playing down-and-in, I try to come more up the back of the ball to get it to work in sooner and more smoothly where the added natural length of the side release coming in from the outside generally has the ball finishing behind the head pin leaving ringing corner pins, sometimes both the 7 and 10 at once.

Take this with a grain of salt, it is a generalization. An on-the-side release works fine down-and-in if you're working on screaming back ends without much conditioner in the mids. An up-the-back will work ok on a swing shot if you're swinging the ball just barely out to say the 3rd arrow (from right for rightes, from left for lefties) and playing a very mild break into the pocket (very ala ABC nationals)

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Kill the back row

a_ak57 · « **Reply #2 on:** April 19, 2004, 07:20:00 PM »

Janderson is pretty much right.

In addition, *generally*, if the lanes are dry, you want more side roll, to skid further down the lane. When it's oily, an up the back release is preferred, as it will grab sooner and be less prone to skidding past the break point.
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Old people are funny.

Brickguy221 · « **Reply #3 on:** April 19, 2004, 09:47:45 PM »

Quote

......"Old people are funny."
------------------------------------------
HEY!!!! AK, quit reminding me that I am 67.
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Nothing hits as hard as an Uranium

a_ak57 · « **Reply #4 on:** April 19, 2004, 09:53:08 PM »

Hah, sorry about that. JUst think of it this way, you're not old, you're just an expert of age!

But that refers to my english teacher...he's a card...he talks about things that his students say, but he doesn't know what they mean, like the other day, we read a poem about morning glory's. He mentioned that one of his students said that morning glory means something else, but he didn't know what they meant. Me and 4 other guys started cracking up, since we're the only males in my class (about 20-some girls), and all the girls were asking us what was so funny, which made us laugh even more....

it was hilarious...

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Old people are funny.

Brickguy221 · « **Reply #5 on:** April 19, 2004, 09:58:53 PM »

Four males and twenty girls??? That's not Morning Glory, thats being in Heaven.

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Nothing hits as hard as an Uranium

a_ak57 · « **Reply #6 on:** April 19, 2004, 10:07:15 PM »

Yeah especially since a lot of them are nice looking

a, but it was really funny, since he had no idea what "Morning Glory" can also mean, besides a flower.

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Old people are funny.

Girlscout · « **Reply #7 on:** April 19, 2004, 10:22:59 PM »

I would like to add to this question. What about
when you are using a ball that is designed to have
more length. I have this new v2 Clean and I'm
thinking that too much hand on the side is sending
the ball past the break. So maybe more up the back
is the ticket. I realize this all takes experience
over time. But if I could just have a better
understanding of when to do what, and of course it
always boils down to all the other variables.
I guess my question is that, isn't the ball being
used a big factor? What janderson says makes me think
that swinging the Clean is my best bet.It does like some
oil, not much.On the other hand if I move right, think
more up the back. But then it depends on.......
Oh well, any help would be appreciated.
Girlscout

LuvThatWhiteDot · « **Reply #8 on:** April 20, 2004, 09:12:26 AM »

quote:
Quote
......"Old people are funny."
------------------------------------------
HEY!!!! AK, quit reminding me that I am 67.
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Just remember, Brickguy: Growing old is inevitable. Growing UP is OPTIONAL!
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White Dot
A friend will be there to bail you out of jail, but a REALLY good friend will be sitting next to you saying "Damn! That was fun!"
http://faldo.atmos.uiuc.edu/FBL/mkting.html

LuvThatWhiteDot · « **Reply #9 on:** April 20, 2004, 09:15:31 AM »

quote:
I understand the finger dancing thing (pinky in, out, tucked, not tucked, index finger in, out, etc), and I understand that different hand positions (thumb position on a clock, cocked wrist, uncocked wrist, etc). But how do I know when to try one vs another???

I watch ball reaction. If I start getting a bit high on the headpin, then I won't try hitting the ball up the back so much. If I soften the shot a little, the ball stops rolling up to the pocket so hard.

The other thing I will try in addition to softening the shot a little is to move my eyes farther down the lane. Sometimes I feel as if I'm targeting something out in the parking lot, but it works

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White Dot

A friend will be there to bail you out of jail, but a REALLY good friend will be sitting next to you saying "Damn! That was fun!"
http://faldo.atmos.uiuc.edu/FBL/mkting.html

janderson · « **Reply #10 on:** April 20, 2004, 06:14:47 PM »

Bones, Girlscout, you're both right - equipment (as well as other factors, for example speed) also need to be factored into the complete equation. The end result ball reaction (or lack thereof) is a sum of many variables.

This is moot to many of us, but it still bears mentioning to readers newer to bowling or the boards.

Though some people argue that ball surface having the biggest effect on ball reaction and some argue that it is layout and some argue that it is the core, in fact the two biggest factors on ball reaction is how you throw your ball and what you're throwing it on. You can take the biggest hook monster ever created on the most scorched, burnt, roached, splintered condition and make the ball go stick straight. You can take the same hook monster, turn the cover off the ball and slow your ball speed to 5mph and still have enough conditioner on the lane to make the ball go stick straight for sixty feet.

Girlscout - you're absolutely right, it takes time, trial, and error. Nothing beats experience.

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Kill the back row

pin-chaser · « **Reply #11 on:** April 21, 2004, 10:51:09 AM »

when is it better to stay more "behind the ball" or "up the back", and when is it better to come some around the side of the ball?

By studying the midlane ball reaction through out the night you can know when and how to alter your release. However, this question is less relavent today than it was 20 years ago when these small type of adjustments where what separated the big dog from the puppies. Today bowlers grab into there bag and produce a different ball, one that "matches up" with the altering condition.

Although there is no EXACT science (as everyones release, speed, preferences are different)there are some principals. But after looking around for a day for articles relating to this specific topic I could not find any, at least that were concise and specific. So I will take a stab at this for the group to hack at.

In general here are some rules:

1. Staying behind the ball - Rolls more, causes weight block to "stand up" earlier, reduces entry angle.

2. Increase hand rotation - Delays roll, delays weight block to "stand up", increase entry angle, produces extra skid in heads and midlanes when oil is present

3. Rev rate altering: This is the throttle for the above, ie. increasing the rev rate increases the effects above and decreasing rev rates decreases the effects above.

4. Bowler induced torq (Grabbing at the bottom to produce a whipping type of revolutions to the ball which is not advocated in todays games but is still usefull): Simply delays all the above reactions down the lane for extra length.

How to use them:

If you notice the midlane producing more revolutions on the ball (the ball grabbing the lane sooner) then you can choose either to stay behind the ball more thereby reducing the effect of the ealier reaction, or rotate around the ball thereby producing more skid but increasing entry angle. The later is the most riskiest because oil moves down the lane and more rotation causes more skid/snap and I have expereinced sudden unexpected 2,10 combonation. However, this move has the biggest potential payoff because of increased entry angle.

If you notice more loping in the midlane then is the time to increase rev rates and or stay behind the ball more to facilitate the ball standing up sooner. Staying behind the ball more usually produces longer length so when I do this I usually tighten my feet a board or so when making this adjustment.

These are just two examples... but by studying the midlane, doing some experimenting, following some predetermined expectation of changes, you can learn for yourself how and when to make release changes.

As a side note: I have always preached starting your bowling session "in the middle". By this I mean, using your "middle" ball speed with your "middle" release and then match the ball to the condition. With this done, you have room to make changes to your ball reaction with YOUR "tools" (speed, release, leverage ...etc) in your tool bag thereby maximizing you personal talent.

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Bowling Tips and Articles at: www.bowlingknowledge.com
IRC: Internet Relay Chat on Dalnet #striketalk. 24x7x365

pin-chaser · « **Reply #12 on:** April 21, 2004, 12:04:12 PM »

Bones, as always you are 100% on the money. I agee today its about "matching up" bowling equipement to lane condition. The art of bowling is a vanishing art however, I teach these still today with the kids. I do it by not giving them a choice... i say do this... they do it and then I tell them what it did and how to use it. I basically dont give them a choise. I call it fine tuning a reaction. They dont realize it as much as an alternitive to choosing different equipement. Any you are right about these things being important once you get to the next level beyond a THS condition. These things become the difference in a check and in a CHECK.

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Bowling Tips and Articles at: www.bowlingknowledge.com
IRC: Internet Relay Chat on Dalnet #striketalk. 24x7x365

Girlscout · « **Reply #13 on:** April 21, 2004, 12:27:03 PM »

Lot of information here, it always comes down
to reading the ball and its reaction, especially
the mid-lane. Thats why the experts keep telling
us to mark the pap on your ball,you can keep it marked
in any non-sanctioned play. Always in practice.
Hardly ever hear bowling refered to as an Art,
but it is IMHO.
I am going to make a copy of the information here
and work(play around)with all this during the summer.
Sawbones, flinging is always an option , may be an
art in that too.
Thanks everyone, GS

Nollster · « **Reply #14 on:** April 21, 2004, 12:28:14 PM »

Bones & pin-chaser -
I've only been taking bowling seriously for the last 6 months and it's taken me until this past weekend to fully understand some of the principles you're talking about. I came home all excited because I finally actually saw my X-Factor coming off my hand, witnessing the revs increase through the midlane and hitting the breakpoint. I know it sounds stupid (at least the missus thought so

), but you absolutely HAVE to see it to fully appreciate it. My problem is that when I bowl in the men's league, I'm kind of in a daze, almost overwhelmed, that I don't take notice to this stuff. I'm just happy not to throw it in the gutter!! I'm planning on using my summer league to take better stock of my ball's reaction to the conditions and my influence on the ball.

Author Topic: Can someone explain hand positions to me? (Read 3179 times)

mumzie

Can someone explain hand positions to me?

janderson

Re: Can someone explain hand positions to me?

a_ak57

Re: Can someone explain hand positions to me?

Brickguy221

Re: Can someone explain hand positions to me?

a_ak57

Re: Can someone explain hand positions to me?

Brickguy221

Re: Can someone explain hand positions to me?

a_ak57

Re: Can someone explain hand positions to me?

Girlscout

Re: Can someone explain hand positions to me?

LuvThatWhiteDot

Re: Can someone explain hand positions to me?

LuvThatWhiteDot

Re: Can someone explain hand positions to me?

janderson

Re: Can someone explain hand positions to me?

pin-chaser

Re: Can someone explain hand positions to me?

pin-chaser

Re: Can someone explain hand positions to me?

Girlscout

Re: Can someone explain hand positions to me?

Nollster

Re: Can someone explain hand positions to me?