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Author Topic: carrydown..  (Read 7337 times)

jlm797

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carrydown..
« on: April 14, 2010, 09:33:15 AM »
Is there really any such thing anymore?

 

scotts33

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Re: carrydown..
« Reply #16 on: April 15, 2010, 09:35:20 AM »
quote:
The leagues I bowl in there might be 2 out of 92 bowlers throwing urethane.  


You are in an unusual situation. All you hear are bowlers picking up Storm Naturals, etc.   Bulldozers.

 
quote:
Yet, by your way of thinking, bowlers that are playing the same breakpoint on the lanes with reactive's aren't picking that oil up and depleting it, they are pushing it down the lane?


NO, if ONLY using reactives yes I agree it will deplete and not push down. Erasers.  


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Scott

Scott

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Re: carrydown..
« Reply #17 on: April 15, 2010, 09:41:00 AM »
quote:
But, like I said earlier, everybody will believe what they believe.  This is a discussion along the lines cgnomaddah.


And that's right where you're stuck.

Like I said, get a fresh lane and look at it from the back and it will be clean.  Stand near the back on the next lane over while someone throws a resin ball for a few frames.  Soon there will be dots of oil from where the bow ties make contact with the dry back ends and deposit some oil there.  That's carry down, plain and simple.

Also as I said, and you and Slowinski agree, oil depletion from the front part of the lane is a much bigger problem, but to say carry down doesn't exist at all is foolish.
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trash heap

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Re: carrydown..
« Reply #18 on: April 15, 2010, 09:41:39 AM »
quote:
You'll see the dots of oil where it "carried down".


It was answered in the article:

quote:
In fact, there was less than 2 units of oil past the end of the pattern after 15 games and practice. This is not enough oil to alter ball motion with today’s covers.


There might be little dots of oil but its probably not enough to affect the motion of the ball.
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Strider

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Re: carrydown..
« Reply #19 on: April 15, 2010, 09:56:16 AM »
Probably true with fresh higher end covers.  If you're like a majority of league bowlers, you're using a lot of balls that are 5+ years old.  Every one knows balls with some mileage on them don't react as hard to the dry as new ones do.  Hard to say if it makes a big difference.  But, if you've seen houses that have basically zero units of oil outside, even a few make a small difference.  Going from 10 units to 12 mean nothing.  When the back ends are cleaned and stripped squeaky clean, and 2 develop, I have no idea how much of a difference it could make.  I thought the conversation was whether it occurred or not, not how big of a problem it was.
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Steven

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Re: carrydown..
« Reply #20 on: April 15, 2010, 10:48:41 AM »
quote:
On shorter patterns with heavier volume, oil does carrydown and fast at that. Cheetah starts out very touchy for me during the first few shots of practice. By the end of practice, I'll have tug room inside as the balls push oil downlane. Happens that fast. This is an extreme case, but it's there all the same.
 


Kingpin: +1

Anybody who bowls on shorter PBA/Sport patterns knows that carrydown is a fact of life. It doesn't take very long for that heavy backend to start disappearing.  


r534me

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Re: carrydown..
« Reply #21 on: April 15, 2010, 01:03:10 PM »
Most of the league bowlers around here use resin.  Generally speaking, only the higher average bowlers are using Naturals and usually when the conditions call for them.  Carry down is a problem in one house when they lay down the heavy patterns and the back ends are not cleaned from open play.  The open play is of the plastic ball, kid parties, variety.

I bowled on a pair of lanes double oiled with the nationals patterns and after 4 games on it none of balls had any energy on the back ends. Carry down?  Well, the lane man reoiled the lanes two games later and did not strip the back ends.  The ball react as it did in game 1.  I concluded that it was the heads that lost oil causing the balls to burn up.

jls

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Re: carrydown..
« Reply #22 on: April 15, 2010, 01:09:26 PM »
quote:
Sorry, but the predominant usage of resin balls will indeed deplete the oil and not carry it down in 99% of the cases.  Yes, there is always that 1% chance but that is it.  Really tend to believe what the Kegel study actually shows vs. anecdotal evidence and hearsay.




This is kinda sorta true...

But since not everyone is capable of throwing 11 strikes per game...

Some still have been known to use a plastic ball for 10 pins.. or 7 pins..

Thus creating some carry down....



just in case you wanted to know

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jls

al_g

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Re: carrydown..
« Reply #23 on: April 15, 2010, 01:21:53 PM »
I think Slowinsky''''s article is interesting and I don''t doubt what was said in it. But like some experiments, it doesn''t mean it always applies in the real world. I do think it applies if one or more of the following is true:
1. The center has one of the newer lane machines that doesn''''t use a wick.
2. The lanes are stripped everyday or stripped/oiled at the same time.
3. Most bowlers are using balls with the strongest covers.

If you read the article he says "...there is
little to no carrydown in today’s game. In fact, there was
less than 2 units of oil past the end of the pattern after
15 games and practice. This is not enough oil to alter ball
motion with today’s covers."

So he does say there''s carrydown, just that it''s insignificant. Take my Thursday night scratch league for example. No plastic or urethane, all resin balls. I know for a fact that the lanes do carrydown sometimes - not all the time, sometimes. If multiple people are moving right with the same or stronger ball to find the line again something happened and it wasn''t oil depletion. On nights we do experience carrydown it''s not uncommon to move a couple of boards right, then move back to your original line and then start moving left from there when the heads/midlane starts to burn up.

Here''s why I think this happens in my Thursday night league:
1. They do not have a brand new lane machine that strips and oils. They use an old 15-20 year old Century machine with a wick. I''ve been told that the oil used by these machines has solvent in them to help spread the oil evenly across the lane. The solvent then evaporates after 30 minutes or so. If they oil right before league and let us bowl before 30 minutes are up are we actually moving more oil down lane(or pushing it left and right as well) due to the solvent still being in the oil?

2. They strip only on Mondays. So if 2 insignificant units of oil are carried down in Slowinsky''s experiment how many more are carried down if you don''t strip and oil fresh 3-5 more times? That could be a significant amount of oil carried down that does effect ball reaction.

I do find the article useful and keep it tucked away for reference, but I know there''s too many variables in the real world for it to apply in all cases. I don''t think that carrydown is a myth, but from my observations I would say it happens less now than say 10 years ago. I''ll just continue to try and read what the lanes are doing and make my adjustments from there and know that sometimes I do have to move right because of carrydown.



Edited on 4/15/2010 1:26 PM

al_g

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Re: carrydown..
« Reply #24 on: April 15, 2010, 01:45:04 PM »
I agree it's an interesting topic.

And to turn off topic for a minute - I love how when you edit and repost a response it starts adding extra ''''''' to all existing '. Help me, I don't know how 2 grammar!!!

MrPerfect

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Re: carrydown..
« Reply #25 on: April 16, 2010, 05:50:38 PM »
Yeah, the center I usually work on mechanics at is mainly an open bowling center. I had one lane today that didn't move between 5-20 due to the amount of carry down, and the other lane wanted to hook left at my feet. Obviously I could go around the carry down, but it's always nice to see a double thumb reign of fire go completely straight unless I really really slowed down. Nothing like the type of carry down created by cheap AMF spare balls.

As far as league goes I haven't seen carry down in ages, unless it's a short sport pattern and people are using a lot of urethane equipment. Even then it's not that bad until the next day when I bowl on the leftovers and the oil has moved around.