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Author Topic: Changing balls after 3/4 season is over, Could some file a complaint against you  (Read 13278 times)

trash heap

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So if you have been throwing a __________ ball for 3/4 of season in a money handicap league and you change to a ____________ ball , and your scores conisiderably increase for remaining weeks of league.  Are you breaking any USBC rules? Could someone file a complaint and prove that you are cheating?

(By changing balls, this means you have had the ball before the season starts)

1. Urethane to Reactive
2. Plastic to Reactive
3. Weak Reactive to a Strong Reactive
4. Reactive to Urethane

I am going to guess most bowlers would cry foul if someone did 1 and 2? But are they really that different from each other?
« Last Edit: June 08, 2012, 11:46:08 AM by trash heap »
Talkin' Trash!

 

tywithay

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My wife was throwing a 13lb house ball averaging 87 her first season. I bought her a Missing Link for Christmas and her average jumped about 40 pins by the end of the season because she was throwing much better with a ball fitted to her hand.

Was it cheating? No.

I've purchased balls that I matched up really well with in the past and have done much better from the point I got that ball. It doesn't make you a cheater to find a good ball matchup. Sure, there are exceptions, but just finding a good ball can change a lot.

Steven

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All I was doing was trying to point out that anyone can perceive that cheating is happening if someone else has an advantage. Perception is reality.

Gunny got this right.


Sorry, nobody functioning with a full deck is going to perceive 'cheating' when someone improves due to coaching or switching to a ball that matches up better. Again, there are any number of valid reasons a bowler might improve through a season.


This is about bowlers who manipulate the system. It may not strictly violate a USBC rule, but is cheating all the same.


JohnP

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One of the best ways to be competitive in a handicap league is to select one or more team members that have the potential to improve a lot during the season.  You may not do so well in the first half, but watch out in the second.  Cheating -- absolutely not.  --  JohnP

Bowling 300 900

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Who keeps track of what balls you are using during the season?  Somebody has watched way too many conspiracy theory shows.

glssmn2001

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I do not think this thread is about keeping track of who throws what, whos wife is getting better, or if anyone is getting better for that matter. Averages fluctuate, we know this. But, let's say Joe Bowler who is well known in a league, a money league (handicap, this is the key) decides he is gonna throw plastic or any other ball that is not conducive to scoring well on said lanes.
   Now, this guy continues to bowl with this ball until well into the season so his average will remain stable at a much lower level. All of a sudden Joe Bowler comes in pulls out his "real" equipment, gets into all the pots, handicapped of course, and starts to take all the money, your money, every week till the season ends. No conspiracy here, at by all means legal, but it is definitely a way to manipulate  your average in order to cheat and make money. Like I stated before, take a 230 bowler and now he is 200 (on purpose) there is a 30 pin buffer on the handicap.
    I think this is basis of the thread and if you do not have a problem with that than I guess we will not see any more thread on bagging and handicap....

Bowling 300 900

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Maybe the USBC needs to do something about this, but what can they do?

I thought I read somewhere that the USBC might pass a rule where any bowler can be re-rated in league, but needs a 3/4 of the league captain vote.

Would that be good enough? 
« Last Edit: June 10, 2012, 02:45:10 PM by Bowling 300 900 »

glssmn2001

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  Personally, I think it is a league issue and should be handled as such. We all know the USBC is not or can not do anything. As a league, if they witness such an behavior, and I say they because you are gonna need more than one bowler to do anything, I am sure they could find a suitable course of action. Whether it a re-rate, expulsion or even the exclusion of jackpots. Being that the thread was based on the league being a money league, locking such a bowler out of all handicapped pots would be a thought.

  I have never run into such a problem so I am only speaking in a hypothetical sense. The only thing I have encountered is one year I brought a sub in a league, who used to be a regular member a few years back and his average had risen to such amount he had to be voted in. He was voted in, mainly because most still knew him, but the stipulation was no jackpots. That is not what we are talking about here, but is proof that if a league wants to, it can make decision for the betterment ( not that that decision bettered the league) of itself as long as someone has the cajones to bring attention to a wrong doing.

 

EagleHunter

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Like I stated before, take a 230 bowler and now he is 200 (on purpose) there is a 30 pin buffer on the handicap.
The above quote demonstrates the problem...the "230 bowler" is not miraculously a "200 bowler"...it is the BALL.

If everyone in the league is using the same ball/drill as the "200 bowler" how much do you want to bet that the "200 bowler" destroys the entire league?  That is why, should the "200 bowler" decide to use updated equipment, like everyone else, he "all of a sudden" starts destroying everyone...he is just that good.

The problem with these threads is the belief that bowling good means scoring good.  Bowling is more than just scoring.  How many times have you felt you bowled great, but scored average or worse?  How many times have you scored great and talked about how poorly you threw it?

No bowler is under any obligation to do anything other than to TRY their best.  Notice I did not say SCORE their best.  If I own 12 bowling balls, who are you to tell me that I can't just pick one to throw each week...regardless of how they actually perform on the lane, IF I am trying my best?

Sorry...no sandbagging there.  The problem, as is typically the case, is perception and a lack of understanding.  A bowler is obligated to TRY their best at all times...to perform to the best of their ability.  If that bowler's ability is limited by the ball they are using, so what?

Perhaps that bowler couldn't afford the "magic" ball that would make him great?  Perhaps that bowler owns the ball, but decided he wanted to use one of the other 12 he owns?  Perhaps that bowler isn't knowledgeable enough to know what ball would allow him to score better?

None of it matters, if he is trying his best...of course, it always matters to someone else because they MUST be getting cheated if they aren't winning.

Bowling 300 900

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This is what happens when there is handicap and money.  Those two don't mix and it causes nothing but problems.   After all these years, bowlers still don't see what's going on or understand it.

Handicap is great for mixed league and social leagues.   Once you start bowling for larger prize funds it opens up a can of worms.

Start bowling scratch if you want to remove the sandbaggers.   Other than this there is no sure fire way to eliminate them, unless you go around patrolling and re-rating them. 

But as we know, scratch leagues get the thumb down.  So that's no answer.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2012, 11:27:00 PM by Bowling 300 900 »

spmcgivern

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I'm sorry Eagle, I just don't agree with you.  Your statement will most likely be true in that bowlers will "try" to the best of their ability.  But I can't believe you would be okay with all of the examples given. 

Many bowlers will do anything for an advantage.  Unfortunately, sandbagging is one of those things that is near impossible to PROVE.  But most know it when they see it. 

In a different perspective, I average around 230 right now.  This summer I am contemplating giving 2-handed bowling a try.  Halfway through the season, I realize I am not a 2-handed bowler, especially after averaging 200 or whatever I average.  Would you be okay with me going back to 1-handed bowling and averaging 230?  I did try my hardest with the 2-handed method.  And USBC sees this method as no different as 1-handed in the average books.

This is what everyone is alluding to. 

Steven

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No bowler is under any obligation to do anything other than to TRY their best.  Notice I did not say SCORE their best.  If I own 12 bowling balls, who are you to tell me that I can't just pick one to throw each week...regardless of how they actually perform on the lane, IF I am trying my best?

Sorry Eagle, you're wrong on this. League is team competition, and you're ethically obligated to TRY to SCORE your best. Without everyone doing their best to score, the integrity of the league disappears. What's ironic is that you'd never get away with scoring less than your best in anything other than handicap. Try your best using just plastic in a scratch league, and the USBC would be the least of your worries. Your teammates would perform their own justice on you at some point early in the season.
 
If you're bent on trying your best while intentionally using inferior equipment, have at it during open play practice. There is a time and place for everything.

Joeyd

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Sorry Eagle, you're wrong on this. League is team competition, and you're ethically obligated to TRY to SCORE your best. Without everyone doing their best to score, the integrity of the league disappears. What's ironic is that you'd never get away with scoring less than your best in anything other than handicap. Try your best using just plastic in a scratch league, and the USBC would be the least of your worries. Your teammates would perform their own justice on you at some point early in the season.
 
If you're bent on trying your best while intentionally using inferior equipment, have at it during open play practice. There is a time and place for everything.

So now ethics are a large part of bowling?? Let's be real for a minute...

Who are you to tell someone that their OPINION is wrong and then add in your... yes, OPINION as though it's gospel?? I will never agree with sandbagging, but I'm not sure how someone can see using inferior equipment as sandbagging.. If that's the case, then every single new bowler should start with a reactive in their hands, right?!
« Last Edit: June 11, 2012, 11:24:05 AM by Joeyd »
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Steven

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So now ethics are a large part of bowling?? Let's be real for a minute...

Who are you to tell someone that they're OPINION is wrong and then add in your... yes, OPINION as though it's gospel?? I will never agree with sandbagging, but I'm not sure how someone can see using inferior equipment as sandbagging?? If that's the case, then every single new bowler should start with a reactive in their hands, right?!


Yes, ethics are a large part of league bowling. The fact that a small percentage of sleaze bags find ways to cheat doesn't change the reality that the vast majority of bowlers always try to score their best. No OPINION here at all...
 
Now before you respond, go back and read the original topic. Its presents the scenario of a bowler intentionally having thrown a weak ball for 3/4 of season in a money handicap league, and then consciously changing to a higher end ball, resulting in scores considerably increasing for remaining weeks of league.
 
Nobody would argue this is right. The only question is if it deserves USBC punitive action. That's the question being asked.
 
This has nothing to do with the "new bowler" scenario you threw in. Absolutely nothing. Please, keep the conversation in context.

Joeyd

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If ethics played such a large part, then then small percentage that sandbag wouldn't be mentioned here (or in the numerous stories that everyone hears) to begin with..

The answer to the initial question is quite obviously no. There's no USBC rule regarding it. However, if someone throws plastic for 3/4 of a season and then out of nowhere switches to reactive, their character would quickly come into question..

Also, while we're talking context, open practice had nothing to do with the OP's question either.
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Steven

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If ethics played such a large part, then then small percentage that sandbag wouldn't be mentioned here (or in the numerous stories that everyone hears) to begin with..

The answer to the initial question is quite obviously no. There's no USBC rule regarding it. However, if someone throws plastic for 3/4 of a season and then out of nowhere switches to reactive, their character would quickly come into question..

Also, while we're talking context, open practice had nothing to do with the OP's question either.

Joey, I think we're in agreement more than disagreement. Yes, I believe for the most part league bowlers are ethical. The minority who sandbag are mentioned here because this is a bowling discussion board. The weird and offbeat get discussed here because this is the place to do it.  :)  I took interest in this thread because I did see it happen once, and as I described in my original post, the league banned the offender for a year. That's the only way these things can really be addressed.
 
As far as my 'open practice' statement, that had to do with EagleHunter describing his right to use any ball he owns any way he pleases. A big money handicap league is not the place.