BallReviews
General Category => Miscellaneous => Topic started by: trash heap on June 08, 2012, 10:50:48 AM
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So if you have been throwing a __________ ball for 3/4 of season in a money handicap league and you change to a ____________ ball , and your scores conisiderably increase for remaining weeks of league. Are you breaking any USBC rules? Could someone file a complaint and prove that you are cheating?
(By changing balls, this means you have had the ball before the season starts)
1. Urethane to Reactive
2. Plastic to Reactive
3. Weak Reactive to a Strong Reactive
4. Reactive to Urethane
I am going to guess most bowlers would cry foul if someone did 1 and 2? But are they really that different from each other?
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You can throw whatever you want. Unless your bowling in a specified league where you can only throw one ball. You can even take a house ball off the rack and throw it.
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If it was a one time thing no, but if it's a pattern? Yea, I would have a problem with that. It's could be used as just another way to abuse the handicap system.
I would welcome you to do that in my scratch leagues though. ;D
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Okay I made a modification to referring it as money handicap league. Yeah do this in scractch....LOL!
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If it was a one time thing no, but if it's a pattern? Yea, I would have a problem with that. It's could be used as just another way to abuse the handicap system.
But in the system of USBC rules and regulations, could you file a complaint and would it be upheld?
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Good question, I have doubts but don't really know.
Personally, I'm kinda like Potter Stewart, the Supreme Court Justice who said, "I know it when I see it". He was talking about pornography of course, but I know sandbagging/cheating when I see it. ;D
Of course, proving it is an entirely different matter, that's why I tend to bowl scratch leagues.
If it was a one time thing no, but if it's a pattern? Yea, I would have a problem with that. It's could be used as just another way to abuse the handicap system.
But in the system of USBC rules and regulations, could you file a complaint and would it be upheld?
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Technically I would say no. You can throw what ever ball you want anytime you want unless league rules state other wise. It is a free country :). In option 1 and 2 there would be ways I could have a problem with it. Lets say a good bowler you know that owns all types of equipment uses a plastic ball just to keep his avg low for the 1st half of the season then the 2nd half moves to reactive and tears it up. I would probably have an issue with it. On the other hand if there is a bowler just starting out and goes from plastic to reactive because he decides to work on his game and get better that would be fine by me. Either way he is not technically breaking any rules under usbc that I am aware of. I don't know if you can call it true sandbagging if he is not missing spares or making bad shots intentionally just the equipment he is using is keeping his scores low.
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Good question, I have doubts but don't really know.
Personally, I'm kinda like Potter Stewart, the Supreme Court Justice who said, "I know it when I see it". He was talking about pornography of course, but I know sandbagging/cheating when I see it. ;D
Of course, proving it is an entirely different matter, that's why I tend to bowl scratch leagues.
Excellent response. I doubt you'd get very far at the USBC level, but I have seen action taken at the league level. A couple of guys who pulled this stunt were banned from the league the following season. Averaging 30-40 pins higher after the April 15 book date was just too obvious.
But even here, I doubt there are many league directors with the gonads needed to pull this kind of trigger.
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I think it all depends on how much your average changed. I see guys going from reactive to urethane all the time mainly because the lanes are drying up.
So how was your average impacted ?
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So if you have been throwing a __________ ball for 3/4 of season in a money handicap league and you change to a ____________ ball , and your scores conisiderably increase for remaining weeks of league. Are you breaking any USBC rules? Could someone file a complaint and prove that you are cheating?
(By changing balls, this means you have had the ball before the season starts)
1. Urethane to Reactive
2. Plastic to Reactive
3. Weak Reactive to a Strong Reactive
4. Reactive to Urethane
I am going to guess most bowlers would cry foul if someone did 1 and 2? But are they really that different from each other?
I think around here if a bowler who was known to be a real good shooter did 1 or 2 in a league that was handicapped but filled with money, I wouldn't be worried about a complaint filed with the USBC. I would be worried about the complaint that was being filed in the parking lot by some of the bowlers who just got took.
As for filing with the USBC, they could, but I doubt anything would come of it. Has the USBC ever done anything to prevent bagging ???? We as bowlers know bagging when we see it, and blatantly using the wrong ball is a form of it. Go ahead and do what you want to do, just do not be surprised if someone decides to make it an issue, either personally or politically.
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I don't think USBC would do anything if a complaint was filed.
There are so many illegal balls being thrown nowadays, what would be the difference? I mean by illegal, based on how many balls are rejected at the weighing counter at Nationals. Some of those balls are not brought into tolerance at Nationals so the bowlers go back home and use them in leagues.
And for me, I don't really notice what other bowlers are throwing so if they are doing that, it has been getting by me. Do others on here really pay that close attention to what each bowler is using? I am usually more concerned with my own game or my teammates, so I only pay attention to what lines are being used by the other team, not which balls.
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Does this also apply to someone who goes out and gets some topnotch coaching in the middle of the season. Or, changing balls once the league session has started to get a better reaction. Or, changing slide pads to accommodate the approaches.
Maybe we should all go back 50 years and just use one hard rubber ball.
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Does this also apply to someone who goes out and gets some topnotch coaching in the middle of the season. Or, changing balls once the league session has started to get a better reaction. Or, changing slide pads to accommodate the approaches.
Maybe we should all go back 50 years and just use one hard rubber ball.
No, No, No, and No.....
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Does this also apply to someone who goes out and gets some topnotch coaching in the middle of the season. Or, changing balls once the league session has started to get a better reaction. Or, changing slide pads to accommodate the approaches.
Maybe we should all go back 50 years and just use one hard rubber ball.
I do not think that is includes any of that, are you saying that since I average 245 with resin you will allow me to throw plastic for most of the season and then when my average is 210 I will switch back and take the extra 35 pin cushion on my handicap ?????
It has nothing to do with "going back 50 years and blah blah blah," it has to do with honest competition.
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All I was doing was trying to point out that anyone can perceive that cheating is happening if someone else has an advantage. Perception is reality.
Gunny got this right.
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My wife was throwing a 13lb house ball averaging 87 her first season. I bought her a Missing Link for Christmas and her average jumped about 40 pins by the end of the season because she was throwing much better with a ball fitted to her hand.
Was it cheating? No.
I've purchased balls that I matched up really well with in the past and have done much better from the point I got that ball. It doesn't make you a cheater to find a good ball matchup. Sure, there are exceptions, but just finding a good ball can change a lot.
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All I was doing was trying to point out that anyone can perceive that cheating is happening if someone else has an advantage. Perception is reality.
Gunny got this right.
Sorry, nobody functioning with a full deck is going to perceive 'cheating' when someone improves due to coaching or switching to a ball that matches up better. Again, there are any number of valid reasons a bowler might improve through a season.
This is about bowlers who manipulate the system. It may not strictly violate a USBC rule, but is cheating all the same.
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One of the best ways to be competitive in a handicap league is to select one or more team members that have the potential to improve a lot during the season. You may not do so well in the first half, but watch out in the second. Cheating -- absolutely not. -- JohnP
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Who keeps track of what balls you are using during the season? Somebody has watched way too many conspiracy theory shows.
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I do not think this thread is about keeping track of who throws what, whos wife is getting better, or if anyone is getting better for that matter. Averages fluctuate, we know this. But, let's say Joe Bowler who is well known in a league, a money league (handicap, this is the key) decides he is gonna throw plastic or any other ball that is not conducive to scoring well on said lanes.
Now, this guy continues to bowl with this ball until well into the season so his average will remain stable at a much lower level. All of a sudden Joe Bowler comes in pulls out his "real" equipment, gets into all the pots, handicapped of course, and starts to take all the money, your money, every week till the season ends. No conspiracy here, at by all means legal, but it is definitely a way to manipulate your average in order to cheat and make money. Like I stated before, take a 230 bowler and now he is 200 (on purpose) there is a 30 pin buffer on the handicap.
I think this is basis of the thread and if you do not have a problem with that than I guess we will not see any more thread on bagging and handicap....
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Maybe the USBC needs to do something about this, but what can they do?
I thought I read somewhere that the USBC might pass a rule where any bowler can be re-rated in league, but needs a 3/4 of the league captain vote.
Would that be good enough?
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Personally, I think it is a league issue and should be handled as such. We all know the USBC is not or can not do anything. As a league, if they witness such an behavior, and I say they because you are gonna need more than one bowler to do anything, I am sure they could find a suitable course of action. Whether it a re-rate, expulsion or even the exclusion of jackpots. Being that the thread was based on the league being a money league, locking such a bowler out of all handicapped pots would be a thought.
I have never run into such a problem so I am only speaking in a hypothetical sense. The only thing I have encountered is one year I brought a sub in a league, who used to be a regular member a few years back and his average had risen to such amount he had to be voted in. He was voted in, mainly because most still knew him, but the stipulation was no jackpots. That is not what we are talking about here, but is proof that if a league wants to, it can make decision for the betterment ( not that that decision bettered the league) of itself as long as someone has the cajones to bring attention to a wrong doing.
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Like I stated before, take a 230 bowler and now he is 200 (on purpose) there is a 30 pin buffer on the handicap.
The above quote demonstrates the problem...the "230 bowler" is not miraculously a "200 bowler"...it is the BALL.
If everyone in the league is using the same ball/drill as the "200 bowler" how much do you want to bet that the "200 bowler" destroys the entire league? That is why, should the "200 bowler" decide to use updated equipment, like everyone else, he "all of a sudden" starts destroying everyone...he is just that good.
The problem with these threads is the belief that bowling good means scoring good. Bowling is more than just scoring. How many times have you felt you bowled great, but scored average or worse? How many times have you scored great and talked about how poorly you threw it?
No bowler is under any obligation to do anything other than to TRY their best. Notice I did not say SCORE their best. If I own 12 bowling balls, who are you to tell me that I can't just pick one to throw each week...regardless of how they actually perform on the lane, IF I am trying my best?
Sorry...no sandbagging there. The problem, as is typically the case, is perception and a lack of understanding. A bowler is obligated to TRY their best at all times...to perform to the best of their ability. If that bowler's ability is limited by the ball they are using, so what?
Perhaps that bowler couldn't afford the "magic" ball that would make him great? Perhaps that bowler owns the ball, but decided he wanted to use one of the other 12 he owns? Perhaps that bowler isn't knowledgeable enough to know what ball would allow him to score better?
None of it matters, if he is trying his best...of course, it always matters to someone else because they MUST be getting cheated if they aren't winning.
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This is what happens when there is handicap and money. Those two don't mix and it causes nothing but problems. After all these years, bowlers still don't see what's going on or understand it.
Handicap is great for mixed league and social leagues. Once you start bowling for larger prize funds it opens up a can of worms.
Start bowling scratch if you want to remove the sandbaggers. Other than this there is no sure fire way to eliminate them, unless you go around patrolling and re-rating them.
But as we know, scratch leagues get the thumb down. So that's no answer.
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I'm sorry Eagle, I just don't agree with you. Your statement will most likely be true in that bowlers will "try" to the best of their ability. But I can't believe you would be okay with all of the examples given.
Many bowlers will do anything for an advantage. Unfortunately, sandbagging is one of those things that is near impossible to PROVE. But most know it when they see it.
In a different perspective, I average around 230 right now. This summer I am contemplating giving 2-handed bowling a try. Halfway through the season, I realize I am not a 2-handed bowler, especially after averaging 200 or whatever I average. Would you be okay with me going back to 1-handed bowling and averaging 230? I did try my hardest with the 2-handed method. And USBC sees this method as no different as 1-handed in the average books.
This is what everyone is alluding to.
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No bowler is under any obligation to do anything other than to TRY their best. Notice I did not say SCORE their best. If I own 12 bowling balls, who are you to tell me that I can't just pick one to throw each week...regardless of how they actually perform on the lane, IF I am trying my best?
Sorry Eagle, you're wrong on this. League is team competition, and you're ethically obligated to TRY to SCORE your best. Without everyone doing their best to score, the integrity of the league disappears. What's ironic is that you'd never get away with scoring less than your best in anything other than handicap. Try your best using just plastic in a scratch league, and the USBC would be the least of your worries. Your teammates would perform their own justice on you at some point early in the season.
If you're bent on trying your best while intentionally using inferior equipment, have at it during open play practice. There is a time and place for everything.
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Sorry Eagle, you're wrong on this. League is team competition, and you're ethically obligated to TRY to SCORE your best. Without everyone doing their best to score, the integrity of the league disappears. What's ironic is that you'd never get away with scoring less than your best in anything other than handicap. Try your best using just plastic in a scratch league, and the USBC would be the least of your worries. Your teammates would perform their own justice on you at some point early in the season.
If you're bent on trying your best while intentionally using inferior equipment, have at it during open play practice. There is a time and place for everything.
So now ethics are a large part of bowling?? Let's be real for a minute...
Who are you to tell someone that their OPINION is wrong and then add in your... yes, OPINION as though it's gospel?? I will never agree with sandbagging, but I'm not sure how someone can see using inferior equipment as sandbagging.. If that's the case, then every single new bowler should start with a reactive in their hands, right?!
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So now ethics are a large part of bowling?? Let's be real for a minute...
Who are you to tell someone that they're OPINION is wrong and then add in your... yes, OPINION as though it's gospel?? I will never agree with sandbagging, but I'm not sure how someone can see using inferior equipment as sandbagging?? If that's the case, then every single new bowler should start with a reactive in their hands, right?!
Yes, ethics are a large part of league bowling. The fact that a small percentage of sleaze bags find ways to cheat doesn't change the reality that the vast majority of bowlers always try to score their best. No OPINION here at all...
Now before you respond, go back and read the original topic. Its presents the scenario of a bowler intentionally having thrown a weak ball for 3/4 of season in a money handicap league, and then consciously changing to a higher end ball, resulting in scores considerably increasing for remaining weeks of league.
Nobody would argue this is right. The only question is if it deserves USBC punitive action. That's the question being asked.
This has nothing to do with the "new bowler" scenario you threw in. Absolutely nothing. Please, keep the conversation in context.
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If ethics played such a large part, then then small percentage that sandbag wouldn't be mentioned here (or in the numerous stories that everyone hears) to begin with..
The answer to the initial question is quite obviously no. There's no USBC rule regarding it. However, if someone throws plastic for 3/4 of a season and then out of nowhere switches to reactive, their character would quickly come into question..
Also, while we're talking context, open practice had nothing to do with the OP's question either.
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If ethics played such a large part, then then small percentage that sandbag wouldn't be mentioned here (or in the numerous stories that everyone hears) to begin with..
The answer to the initial question is quite obviously no. There's no USBC rule regarding it. However, if someone throws plastic for 3/4 of a season and then out of nowhere switches to reactive, their character would quickly come into question..
Also, while we're talking context, open practice had nothing to do with the OP's question either.
Joey, I think we're in agreement more than disagreement. Yes, I believe for the most part league bowlers are ethical. The minority who sandbag are mentioned here because this is a bowling discussion board. The weird and offbeat get discussed here because this is the place to do it. :) I took interest in this thread because I did see it happen once, and as I described in my original post, the league banned the offender for a year. That's the only way these things can really be addressed.
As far as my 'open practice' statement, that had to do with EagleHunter describing his right to use any ball he owns any way he pleases. A big money handicap league is not the place.
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So, should I file a complaint because the house I bowl in has skimped on oil since I shot 300/800 there? I've dropped almost 25 pins because the only thing I can keep right of the head pin is a plastic ball. Sometimes I have good nights, but mostly I have bad/mediocre. I guess I should file a complaint there too. But, no I'm not, it's a business, and he's trying to save money by putting less oil out. I completely understand. I either struggle with plastic, or bowl somewhere else.
Listen, if someone is doing it purposely, and you know when they are.."two gutters in the tenth", than maybe instead of filing a complaint maybe you should say something to that individual. It's hard to prove #1, and the USBC isn't gonna investigate, they have better things to do. If I see someone doing that, I lose all respect for them, but me calling them out will make them think twice about doing it again.
But to file a complaint on, lets say me, because I started the season at 187 because the shot is so dry that I'm trying to figure out a comfortable/consistent shot I can stay with. Now the second half comes around, and I try a different ball and surface, and next thing you know, I start killing it. I now start averaging my 220 week in and out, because I figured it out. So should there be merit in filing a complaint against me? Is that sandbagging?
Remember this.....
Truth is universal. Perception of truth is not.
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The simple truth is if you intentionally score low to gain an advantage then you are sandbagging.
Be that by intentionally missing spares, intentionally playing the wrong line, or intentionally using a ball that you know will produce lower scores.
When you combine money and handicap together in leagues it will bring out the worse in some people.
Most of counter arguments here are not people scoring low intentionally.
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The simple truth is if you intentionally score low to gain an advantage then you are sandbagging.
Be that by intentionally missing spares, intentionally playing the wrong line, or intentionally using a ball that you know will produce lower scores.
When you combine money and handicap together in leagues it will bring out the worse in some people.
Most of counter arguments here are not people scoring low intentionally.
Agree. It seems the solution to this, is it is up to the individual bowler and it becomes an honor system, just like out on the golf course. Only the bowler know's his/her intentions with throwing a specific ball. Just hearing someone stating that they switched from plastic to a reactive is probably not enough.
As others stated it before, Money and Handicap are probably two words that should not be combined in a league. I see the problems (complaints) in the local mix leagues. Adding big money is just too much of a temptation for some.
Now most seem to think in your more relax leagues (social/mix) this is probably not as much of an issue. I know many bowlers that take various balls with them to league and try things out. Throw their new purchased ball for a game, if they have success, they continue to throw it, if not, they pull out the good ole reliable ball.
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That why at our center we have every league use last year's average for the first 4 weeks!! I somebody wants to throw off for the first four weeks then they will have a hard time making up the difference! When we didn't do this we had higher average bowlers not shooting their best for a while to hold their average down!! Just my $.02, Bruce
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Sorry Eagle, you're wrong on this. League is team competition, and you're ethically obligated to TRY to SCORE your best. Without everyone doing their best to score, the integrity of the league disappears. What's ironic is that you'd never get away with scoring less than your best in anything other than handicap. Try your best using just plastic in a scratch league, and the USBC would be the least of your worries. Your teammates would perform their own justice on you at some point early in the season.
If you're bent on trying your best while intentionally using inferior equipment, have at it during open play practice. There is a time and place for everything.
The problem with your argument is that you are bringing other variables into the equation. Simply put, there is NO USBC rule that is being violated as described by the OP. In addition, many of the people that disagree with this also keep bringing other variables into the equation.
Is there a rule against this...NO.
Oh, but if it's a handicap league, then you are gaining an advantage and "someone" is getting cheated...um, what rule is being violated? None. Just another variable to try to justify someone's misguided belief, typically not based in any FACT.
Oh, but if it's a scratch league, then you wouldn't think of doing it...um, why not? Again, another unrelated variable with no bearing on any rule. What your teammates think (or someone's belief about ethical concerns) has nothing to do with the lack of a rule violation.
Consider this...
1. New league bowler with 2 years of experience has thrown urethane for his whole career. His buddy tells him a reactive ball would give him 30+ pins/gm. He decides not to get one because he can't afford it.
2. Ex-touring pro hasn't bowled in 15 years, joins a local league and throws the only ball he kept, an old urethane ball. Even though he has connections, he chooses not to upgrade his equipment.
3. Accomplished bowler with 20+ balls in his arsenal joins a league and decides he wants to throw urethane. He walks in every week with only his urethane ball.
None of the above bowlers uses a reactive ball for the league. However, all of them choose to upgrade over the summer and bowl a few tournaments using the average from the "urethane" league. Who was sandbagging?
The answer is simple...no one was sandbagging.
You are only obligated to do your best with the ball in your hand. Are you sandbagging if you bring the wrong bag to league and have only dry-lane equipment for a 1st shift heavy oil league? If teammates, coaches, and other high-level bowlers tell you that you'd pick up 30+ pins/game if you bought "x" ball and you CHOOSE not to, are you sandbagging?
No one can make any bowler throw any ball, whether it would work better or not. If you would like to bring in the many variables why you disagree that is fine, but open up a new topic because those variables have nothing to do with this topic.
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Besides the best ball in the world can't beat bad luck on some nights, or even slumps!!!
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So where are all the mathematicians?
We're talking about purposely bowling below your level (all due to the ball of course) for 27 weeks - 81 games - then turn around and "bring it" for 9 weeks (27 games).
How much of an advantage are you giving yourself, or your team, for those final 27 games? Remember, we're talking about in the league, not side pots and brackets. Those are optional and nobody is forcing you to enter those.
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Reading these threads you learn one thing any change a bowler makes, he becomes a suspet sandbagger.
I cant wait for a thread where some one complains about somebody wiping thier ball off who never wiped before or put new grips in and they started bowling better.
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How much of an advantage can 27 games make? How about 1/3 of a season? Seems innocent enough. A rise of 30 pins in average for 1/3 of the season raises the overall average 10 pins.
But what some deal with is bowling in leagues where the season broken into halves or thirds. I bowled in a league where all you have to do is win one third and you were in the roll-offs for the championship. If you slack off enough for 2/3 of the season and only bring it for 1/3, then you are set, doesn't matter which one. And you have a lower overall average to boot for those roll-offs.
No one is saying those who don't have the equipment are sandbagging. No one is saying those who get lessons and improve are sandbagging. And no one is saying after a layoff from bowling and a person returns with the only ball they own is sandbagging. And I don't think anyone is trying to say this is a rampant virus of activity that is ruining bowling.
All this post is about is what would be the result of a particular instance. An instance I feel I have seen occur. Nothing more, nothing less. To turn this discussion into what it isn't is counterproductive. What are people's feelings if they feel a person used a urethane/plastic ball "on purpose" for the sake of averaging lower than their ability; then finish a season with a complete arsenal and average closer to their ability? The key to this entire argument is the fact the bowler is doing this "on purpose" to gain an advantage.
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The problem with your argument is that you are bringing other variables into the equation. Simply put, there is NO USBC rule that is being violated as described by the OP. In addition, many of the people that disagree with this also keep bringing other variables into the equation.
Is there a rule against this...NO.
Eagle, the bottom line is that you can't legislate ethics and morality. Because of many of the variables you mentioned, it's not possible to have en-forcable USBC rules in this area. Regardless, anyone who purposely scores less that they're capable of in league competition is sandbagging.
The motivation could be to fit on a stacked team in a capped max league the following year, or position himself to clean up in handicap tournaments. Both could equate to thousand of additional dollars in the pocket.
While there may not be a USBC enforceable rule, it can be monitored and enforced at the league level. The offender I mentioned previously took his 1 year ban to local USBC officials to get overturned, and got nowhere. The guy sucked it up and served his time, and he's been a model bowling citizen since. There aren't many happy ending when it comes to sandbagging, but it can happen.
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What about the people who bowl at centers that have a tough house shot and have a lower average! They bowl handicapped tournaments with the lower average and bowl on a better condition and score well above their average? I've seen some house shots where you have to use plastic or urethane for your strike ball. Watch ESPN Classic and the older PBA telecast from the 70's. They used plastic balls and averaged over 220 for the week to make the finals!! A good bowler can shoot good with anything and sometimes the latest, greatest hook in a box isn't the ball for them at that time!!!
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Bat, you're going off on a tangent.. Stay focused. ;D
A bowler can only control his/her actions in the house they bowl in. China or dirt, if you're trying to bowl the best that can be achieved with the equipment you own, you're a good citizen.
In a perfect world the bowler who books unusually low on dirt would declare the situation to the tournament director for re-rate consideration, but that would be up to the individual. Going from dirt to china (or china to dirt) can work for or against you, so it gets down to personal integrity and doing what's right for a given situation.
In this realm, I might be bowling in a capped scratch league in a tougher scoring house next year where I can get my book average adjusted down 5-10 pins. It would help in putting together a more competitive team, but I think I'm going to pass. I don't want want other bowlers pissing and moaning if I end up doing better than expected. It's not worth it.
What about the people who bowl at centers that have a tough house shot and have a lower average! They bowl handicapped tournaments with the lower average and bowl on a better condition and score well above their average? I've seen some house shots where you have to use plastic or urethane for your strike ball. Watch ESPN Classic and the older PBA telecast from the 70's. They used plastic balls and averaged over 220 for the week to make the finals!! A good bowler can shoot good with anything and sometimes the latest, greatest hook in a box isn't the ball for them at that time!!!
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To answer the original question asked... NO, you are not breaking any USBC rules. Could this be brought up to the league officer and action taken against you, possibly.
In bowling there is a very fine line between sandbagging, average management, and using league to try/work on things.
My personal opinion is that if you planned ahead of time to use a certain ball to "keep your average in check" then switched, knowing full well how much better you would score, to gain an advantage and make a strong push in the final 1/3 of the season, you are not only a scumbag, but also just pitiful.
And in all honesty, these aren't the guys I'm ever worried about, because they most likely don't bowl scratch tournaments and also more often than not, do this because they know they can't handle the pressure of trying to beat someone heads up without some sort of advantage.
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My personal opinion is that if you planned ahead of time to use a certain ball to "keep your average in check" then switched, knowing full well how much better you would score, to gain an advantage and make a strong push in the final 1/3 of the season, you are not only a scumbag, but also just pitiful.
Nose, well said.
There might be a rule that's applicable to the situation:
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115a. Dismissal of a League Officer or Player
A league member can file a written charge asking for removal of a league officer or dismissal of a player.
1. A player may be dismissed from the league or an officer removed from league office only for any of the following reasons:
a. Conduct derogatory to the best interest of the league.
b. Any deliberate action which can be proven to be detrimental to the best interest of the team.
c. Violation of any USBC or league rule.
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Rule 115a(a) does seem to be applicable. Any bowler who deliberately performs average management, either through selectively using inferior equipment or throwing off shots, is clearly performing conduct derogatory to the best interest of the league.
It just takes the will of house management and league officials to take action where there is sandbagging beyond any doubt.
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What are people's feelings if they feel a person used a urethane/plastic ball "on purpose" for the sake of averaging lower than their ability; then finish a season with a complete arsenal and average closer to their ability? The key to this entire argument is the fact the bowler is doing this "on purpose" to gain an advantage.
Your argument is flawed. You can't say "averaging lower than their ability" when he is not.
With a urethane ball the individual is averaging exactly what his ability is...with THAT BALL. That is issue you guys seem to be missing...you are claiming that the bowler's ability is tied to the ball he is using. Why? Because his scores change?
If the bowler is throwing urethane and purposely missing spares and purposely missing the building...then you have an issue.
However, the very nature of a particular ball will, most likely, increase OR decrease the SCORING ability of the player. Yet, it does NOT decrease the ability of the bowler. Therefore he is NOT averaging lower than his ability.
Do you any of you want to make the claim that a bowler's ability is based only on the ball he is using? That seems to be exactly what you are doing...
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So Eagle, you feel a bowler's average is independent of their ability?
If you were a sponsor for Walter Ray and he decided to use a plastic ball on the Scorpion pattern you would be fine with that. After all, his "ability" is undisputed. Of course not, you want him to score his best and would want him to use a ball of his that will allow him to have a score that matched his ability.
To me it boils down to whether or not a bowler does "anything" on purpose to average lower than their ability. Whether that is using plastic on purpose, or missing spares on purpose or anything within their power to manipulate their scores for their benefit.
Unfortunately, I agree with most on here in that it is not against the rules per se to use a plastic ball. But the practice as stated in the OP is unethical.
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Who is to say that said bowler didn't just get a brand new urethane ball prior to the fall league starting. He/she practices with it couple of times prior to league, loves the reaction, and decides it would be great to use for league. So they use it for league. Due to stubbornness and/or new ball syndrome they never change away from it since they were sure it would work for league. Finally, their teammates get on them about their scores. Accepts they were wrong switches to reactive and bowls better. Is that worthy of a complaint from the league or USBC? How can you even differentiate that from blatant use of a mismatched ball? IMO, you can't.
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That is just it. You can't tell. I am not saying it is a USBC matter, just an ethical matter for those who do it on purpose to manage their average.
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So Eagle, you feel a bowler's average is independent of their ability?
Without question a bowler's ability is completely independent of their average. I'm shocked that anyone on this board would think otherwise.
How else would you explain the VAST majority of bowlers that can average 220+ at their home center, yet can't even think of hitting 1700 at USBC Nationals?
If they're 220+ yet can't bowl at Nationals, are they sandbagging?
No, simply put they aren't that good. Their ability is not nearly what their average allows them (or others apparently) to think it is. Do you disagree?
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Eagle, this isn't about the value of a given THS average, what a bowler can accomplish at nationals, or 'ability' independent of the equipment on the hand.
Keep it simple and on topic. This is about bowling to full capability in league situations. That means trying to score as high as possible every week. Any bowler who consciously performs at a level less less than their capability is unethical and subject to sanction under rule 115a if the behavior is blatant and measurable over a period of time.
Nobody said it's easy to catch. But it does exist.
So Eagle, you feel a bowler's average is independent of their ability?
Without question a bowler's ability is completely independent of their average. I'm shocked that anyone on this board would think otherwise.
How else would you explain the VAST majority of bowlers that can average 220+ at their home center, yet can't even think of hitting 1700 at USBC Nationals?
If they're 220+ yet can't bowl at Nationals, are they sandbagging?
No, simply put they aren't that good. Their ability is not nearly what their average allows them (or others apparently) to think it is. Do you disagree?
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Steven,
I am really surprised that you are having such a hard time understanding this issue.
First, keeping it "simple and on topic"...
1. Are any USBC rules being broken? NO
2. Could someone file a complaint? YES - for anything, at any time
3. Could they prove cheating? NO
Now, for the more nuanced discussion that you seem to not understand...
First, my last post answered a question posed by spmcgivern...is a bowler's average independent of their ability? (You can reread my response to that question.) Simply put, YES.
You seem to think that by using a plastic/urethane ball (based on the OP), which may in fact lead to lower scoring potential, the bowler is performing to less than their ability. I call BS. It is most likely true that the bowler's scoring potential decreases, however his overall ability does not.
The USBC rule book speaks only of the bowler performing to the best of his ability, NOT to the highest scoring ability. This may seem counterintuitive, but it is not.
I think we could all agree that in most league situations (which typically involve the THS) a reactive ball will most likely lead to the highest potential for high scores. So does this imply that any bowler not using a reactive ball is knowingly performing at less than their ability? Certainly not, although their potential for higher scores is most likely considerably lower than those that are using a reactive ball. What about the bowler who has the reactive ball but, quite frankly, is too stupid to know the proper area of the lane to play and, consequently, struggles to "score" as well as he should? Is he cheating or just stupid?
The problem is the perception of intent. You believe, based on the OP, that the bowler would be cheating because he could be scoring higher. While it may be true that he could score higher, there is no way you could accuse him of cheating...unless he purposely flagged spares or intentionally picked off the corners on his 1st shot.
Walk into almost any league in this country and you will find bowlers that are still using decades-old equipment. I would guess that in 95% of those bowlers, if someone gave them current equipment their scores would go up. Does this mean they are cheating? Of course not.
And that my friend is the point. USBC cannot legislate that all bowlers should use ANY type of equipment that would allow them to score higher than they otherwise would with their current equipment. Yet that it exactly what you are arguing here. Just because a bowler has equipment that could allow him to score higher, you assume he MUST use it.
You can take issue with it if you like, but no rule breaking is occurring. What you seem to desire is this...every bowler should be trying to score as high as possible at all times and USBC should ensure this is happening. But if that were the case, then shouldn't the type of ball be mandated by USBC (the one that would be most conducive to scoring in that particular environment)? And shouldn't they provide a graph showing exactly where each style of bowler should be playing (in order to make sure that the bowler is going to score as high as possible)? Then any bowler that deviated from these guidelines would be knowingly cheating because they were NOT using the guidelines that would allow them to score the highest.
Such a thought is ludicrous, yet that is exactly what you are suggesting.
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Eagle, the difference is INTENT. That is the only argument here. Not what some old guy is averaging with the only ball he has. Not what a new guy is averaging when he doesn't know where to throw or which of his 2 or 3 balls is best suited. This discussion is only about the person who is purposely using a particular ball to purposely average lower than they would with a ball they already own and would use under different circumstances. This bowler knows what ball of theirs would be best suited and consciously decides not to use said ball in order to keep his average low.
I do agree there is nothing that can be done to prevent this. I doubt it really happens much. The intent of the OP was to only ask if that scenario could be legislated. I feel most everyone agrees it would be near impossible to prove. Only one person has stated a situation where any action was taken. The culprit accepted his punishment and has moved on. That says there was some truth in the original accusation.
Back to my question about if a bowler's average is independent of their ability, I was referring to a individual case. I didn't explain very well my question. The question was more about if you see a person's average in a particular league is 210. One would assume he is a 210 average bowler on that shot. May not have been the best question to ask.
But to end, I know of a person who has started every season for the last 4 years with urethane under the premise of "working on their game". This bowler will bowl with said ball into the second half of the season and finish the season with a normal arsenal of equipment. This equipment is nothing fancy or new, just equipment he has accrued over the years. Oh, and the kicker is, he has won most improved 3 of those 4 years.