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Author Topic: Changing balls after 3/4 season is over, Could some file a complaint against you  (Read 13291 times)

trash heap

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So if you have been throwing a __________ ball for 3/4 of season in a money handicap league and you change to a ____________ ball , and your scores conisiderably increase for remaining weeks of league.  Are you breaking any USBC rules? Could someone file a complaint and prove that you are cheating?

(By changing balls, this means you have had the ball before the season starts)

1. Urethane to Reactive
2. Plastic to Reactive
3. Weak Reactive to a Strong Reactive
4. Reactive to Urethane

I am going to guess most bowlers would cry foul if someone did 1 and 2? But are they really that different from each other?
« Last Edit: June 08, 2012, 11:46:08 AM by trash heap »
Talkin' Trash!

 

Gunny

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So, should I file a complaint because the house I bowl in has skimped on oil since I shot 300/800 there?  I've dropped almost 25 pins because the only thing I can keep right of the head pin is a plastic ball.  Sometimes I have good nights, but mostly I have bad/mediocre.  I guess I should file a complaint there too.  But, no I'm not, it's a business, and he's trying to save money by putting less oil out.  I completely understand.  I either struggle with plastic, or bowl somewhere else.

Listen, if someone is doing it purposely, and you know when they are.."two gutters in the tenth", than maybe instead of filing a complaint maybe you should say something to that individual.  It's hard to prove #1, and the USBC isn't gonna investigate, they have better things to do.  If I see someone doing that, I lose all respect for them, but me calling them out will make them think twice about doing it again.

But to file a complaint on, lets say me, because I started the season at 187 because the shot is so dry that I'm trying to figure out a comfortable/consistent shot I can stay with.  Now the second half comes around, and I try a different ball and surface, and next thing you know, I start killing it.  I now start averaging my 220 week in and out, because I figured it out.  So should there be merit in filing a complaint against me?  Is that sandbagging?

Remember this.....

Truth is universal. Perception of truth is not.

Pinbuster

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The simple truth is if you intentionally score low to gain an advantage then you are sandbagging.

Be that by intentionally missing spares, intentionally playing the wrong line, or intentionally using a ball that you know will produce lower scores.

When you combine money and handicap together in leagues it will bring out the worse in some people.

Most of counter arguments here are not people scoring low intentionally.

trash heap

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The simple truth is if you intentionally score low to gain an advantage then you are sandbagging.

Be that by intentionally missing spares, intentionally playing the wrong line, or intentionally using a ball that you know will produce lower scores.

When you combine money and handicap together in leagues it will bring out the worse in some people.

Most of counter arguments here are not people scoring low intentionally.
Agree. It seems the solution to this, is it is up to the individual bowler and it becomes an honor system, just like out on the golf course. Only the bowler know's his/her intentions with throwing a specific ball. Just hearing someone stating that they switched from plastic to a reactive is probably not enough. 

As others stated it before, Money and Handicap are probably two words that should not be combined in a league. I see the problems (complaints) in the local mix leagues. Adding big money is just too much of a temptation for some.

Now most seem to think in your more relax leagues (social/mix) this is probably not as much of an issue. I know many bowlers that take various balls with them to league and try things out. Throw their new purchased ball for a game, if they have success, they continue to throw it, if not, they pull out the good ole reliable ball.
Talkin' Trash!

batbowler

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That why at our center we have every league use last year's average for the first 4 weeks!! I somebody wants to throw off for the first four weeks then they will have a hard time making up the difference! When we didn't do this we had higher average bowlers not shooting their best for a while to hold their average down!! Just my $.02, Bruce
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EagleHunter

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Sorry Eagle, you're wrong on this. League is team competition, and you're ethically obligated to TRY to SCORE your best. Without everyone doing their best to score, the integrity of the league disappears. What's ironic is that you'd never get away with scoring less than your best in anything other than handicap. Try your best using just plastic in a scratch league, and the USBC would be the least of your worries. Your teammates would perform their own justice on you at some point early in the season.
 
If you're bent on trying your best while intentionally using inferior equipment, have at it during open play practice. There is a time and place for everything.

The problem with your argument is that you are bringing other variables into the equation.  Simply put, there is NO USBC rule that is being violated as described by the OP.  In addition, many of the people that disagree with this also keep bringing other variables into the equation.

Is there a rule against this...NO.

Oh, but if it's a handicap league, then you are gaining an advantage and "someone" is getting cheated...um, what rule is being violated?  None.  Just another variable to try to justify someone's misguided belief, typically not based in any FACT.

Oh, but if it's a scratch league, then you wouldn't think of doing it...um, why not?  Again, another unrelated variable with no bearing on any rule.  What your teammates think (or someone's belief about ethical concerns) has nothing to do with the lack of a rule violation.

Consider this...

1. New league bowler with 2 years of experience has thrown urethane for his whole career.  His buddy tells him a reactive ball would give him 30+ pins/gm.  He decides not to get one because he can't afford it.

2. Ex-touring pro hasn't bowled in 15 years, joins a local league and throws the only ball he kept, an old urethane ball.  Even though he has connections, he chooses not to upgrade his equipment.

3. Accomplished bowler with 20+ balls in his arsenal joins a league and decides he wants to throw urethane.  He walks in every week with only his urethane ball.

None of the above bowlers uses a reactive ball for the league.  However, all of them choose to upgrade over the summer and bowl a few tournaments using the average from the "urethane" league.  Who was sandbagging?

The answer is simple...no one was sandbagging.

You are only obligated to do your best with the ball in your hand.  Are you sandbagging if you bring the wrong bag to league and have only dry-lane equipment for a 1st shift heavy oil league?  If teammates, coaches, and other high-level bowlers tell you that you'd pick up 30+ pins/game if you bought "x" ball and you CHOOSE not to, are you sandbagging?

No one can make any bowler throw any ball, whether it would work better or not.  If you would like to bring in the many variables why you disagree that is fine, but open up a new topic because those variables have nothing to do with this topic.

batbowler

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Besides the best ball in the world can't beat bad luck on some nights, or even slumps!!!
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qstick777

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So where are all the mathematicians? 

We're talking about purposely bowling below your level (all due to the ball of course) for 27 weeks - 81 games - then turn around and "bring it" for 9 weeks (27 games).

How much of an advantage are you giving yourself, or your team, for those final 27 games?  Remember, we're talking about in the league, not side pots and brackets.  Those are optional and nobody is forcing you to enter those.

Aloarjr810

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Reading these threads you learn one thing any change a bowler makes, he becomes a suspet sandbagger.

I cant wait for a thread where some one complains about somebody wiping thier ball off who never wiped before or put new grips in and they started bowling better.
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spmcgivern

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How much of an advantage can 27 games make?  How about 1/3 of a season?  Seems innocent enough.  A rise of 30 pins in average for 1/3 of the season raises the overall average 10 pins. 

But what some deal with is bowling in leagues where the season broken into halves or thirds.  I bowled in a league where all you have to do is win one third and you were in the roll-offs for the championship.  If you slack off enough for 2/3 of the season and only bring it for 1/3, then you are set, doesn't matter which one.  And you have a lower overall average to boot for those roll-offs. 

No one is saying those who don't have the equipment are sandbagging. No one is saying those who get lessons and improve are sandbagging.  And no one is saying after a layoff from bowling and a person returns with the only ball they own is sandbagging.  And I don't think anyone is trying to say this is a rampant virus of activity that is ruining bowling. 

All this post is about is what would be the result of a particular instance.  An instance I feel I have seen occur.  Nothing more, nothing less.  To turn this discussion into what it isn't is counterproductive.  What are people's feelings if they feel a person used a urethane/plastic ball "on purpose" for the sake of averaging lower than their ability; then finish a season with a complete arsenal and average closer to their ability?  The key to this entire argument is the fact the bowler is doing this "on purpose" to gain an advantage.

Steven

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The problem with your argument is that you are bringing other variables into the equation.  Simply put, there is NO USBC rule that is being violated as described by the OP.  In addition, many of the people that disagree with this also keep bringing other variables into the equation.

Is there a rule against this...NO.


Eagle, the bottom line is that you can't legislate ethics and morality. Because of many of the variables you mentioned, it's not possible to have en-forcable USBC rules in this area. Regardless, anyone who purposely scores less that they're capable of in league competition is sandbagging.   
 
The motivation could be to fit on a stacked team in a capped max league the following year, or position himself to clean up in handicap tournaments. Both could equate to thousand of additional dollars in the pocket.
 
While there may not be a USBC enforceable rule, it can be monitored and enforced at the league level. The offender I mentioned previously took his 1 year ban to local USBC officials to get overturned, and got nowhere. The guy sucked it up and served his time, and he's been a model bowling citizen since. There aren't many happy ending when it comes to sandbagging, but it can happen.   

batbowler

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What about the people who bowl at centers that have a tough house shot and have a lower average! They bowl handicapped tournaments with the lower average and bowl on a better condition and score well above their average? I've seen some house shots where you have to use plastic or urethane for your strike ball. Watch ESPN Classic and the older PBA telecast from the 70's. They used plastic balls and averaged over 220 for the week to make the finals!! A good bowler can shoot good with anything and sometimes the latest, greatest hook in a box isn't the ball for them at that time!!!
Bruce Campbell
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Steven

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Bat, you're going off on a tangent..  Stay focused.  ;D
 
A bowler can only control his/her actions in the house they bowl in. China or dirt, if you're trying to bowl the best that can be achieved with the equipment you own, you're a good citizen.
 
In a perfect world the bowler who books unusually low on dirt would declare the situation to the tournament director for re-rate consideration, but that would be up to the individual. Going from dirt to china (or china to dirt) can work for or against you, so it gets down to personal integrity and doing what's right for a given situation.   
 
In this realm, I might be bowling in a capped scratch league in a tougher scoring house next year where I can get my book average adjusted down 5-10 pins. It would help in putting together a more competitive team, but I think I'm going to pass. I don't want want other bowlers pissing and moaning if I end up doing better than expected. It's not worth it.   
 
What about the people who bowl at centers that have a tough house shot and have a lower average! They bowl handicapped tournaments with the lower average and bowl on a better condition and score well above their average? I've seen some house shots where you have to use plastic or urethane for your strike ball. Watch ESPN Classic and the older PBA telecast from the 70's. They used plastic balls and averaged over 220 for the week to make the finals!! A good bowler can shoot good with anything and sometimes the latest, greatest hook in a box isn't the ball for them at that time!!!

NoseofRI

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To answer the original question asked... NO, you are not breaking any USBC rules. Could this be brought up to the league officer and action taken against you, possibly.
In bowling there is a very fine line between sandbagging, average management, and using league to try/work on things.

My personal opinion is that if you planned ahead of time to use a certain ball to "keep your average in check" then switched, knowing full well how much better you would score, to gain an advantage and make a strong push in the final 1/3 of the season, you are not only a scumbag, but also just pitiful.
And in all honesty, these aren't the guys I'm ever worried about, because they most likely don't bowl scratch tournaments and also more often than not, do this because they know they can't handle the pressure of trying to beat someone heads up without some sort of advantage.

Steven

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My personal opinion is that if you planned ahead of time to use a certain ball to "keep your average in check" then switched, knowing full well how much better you would score, to gain an advantage and make a strong push in the final 1/3 of the season, you are not only a scumbag, but also just pitiful.


Nose, well said.
 
There might be a rule that's applicable to the situation:
 
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  115a. Dismissal of a League Officer or Player

A league member can file a written charge asking for removal of a league officer or dismissal of a player.
1. A player may be dismissed from the league or an officer removed from league office only for any of the following reasons:
a. Conduct derogatory to the best interest of the league.
b. Any deliberate action which can be proven to be detrimental to the best interest of the team.
c. Violation of any USBC or league rule.
 
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Rule 115a(a) does seem to be applicable. Any bowler who deliberately performs average management, either through selectively using inferior equipment or throwing off shots, is clearly performing conduct derogatory to the best interest of the league. 
 
It just takes the will of house management and league officials to take action where there is sandbagging beyond any doubt.

EagleHunter

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What are people's feelings if they feel a person used a urethane/plastic ball "on purpose" for the sake of averaging lower than their ability; then finish a season with a complete arsenal and average closer to their ability?  The key to this entire argument is the fact the bowler is doing this "on purpose" to gain an advantage.
Your argument is flawed.  You can't say "averaging lower than their ability" when he is not.

With a urethane ball the individual is averaging exactly what his ability is...with THAT BALL.  That is issue you guys seem to be missing...you are claiming that the bowler's ability is tied to the ball he is using.  Why?  Because his scores change?

If the bowler is throwing urethane and purposely missing spares and purposely missing the building...then you have an issue. 

However, the very nature of a particular ball will, most likely, increase OR decrease the SCORING ability of the player.  Yet, it does NOT decrease the ability of the bowler.  Therefore he is NOT averaging lower than his ability.

Do you any of you want to make the claim that a bowler's ability is based only on the ball he is using?  That seems to be exactly what you are doing...