BallReviews
General Category => Miscellaneous => Topic started by: HamPster on July 18, 2003, 10:18:48 AM
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I'll do my best to keep my mouth shut about the idiots I've seen post in Doug's topic about his Reloadeds. I don't mean to blow any pro shop secrets, but from the supplier we have, Doug's price of 125 SHIPPED is cheaper than we can get them! If my boss did something like that, he'd be losing over 20 bucks a ball once he received the ball and added the shipping price to what he paid.
Do you ignorant whiners even know what it takes to run a pro shop? There are so many little expenses that you have no clue about. Most of the smaller things are what you get for free. You come in on a league night, and your thumbhole is too tight, or too sharp. Bevel knives, bevel sanders, the round graters, you know, all the stuff that pro shops pay for and make little adjustments to your thumb hole for FREE with. Say a grip is a little loose, there's some glue. I mean, heck, then you add other things like a vaccuum cleaner, towels, paper towels, and Windex, things like that come out of profits. And that's all small stuff. If a center doesn't own the pro shop, the pro shop pays rent, unless there is some special deal going on. All the tools to run a pro shop have to be paid for, that's why the extra costs. People then complain about "Well, after they pay for the drilling machine, everything from there is pure profit." Yeah, after you break even for the MONTHS it takes to pay one of those things off, unless you had some rich relative die.
Who wants to run a business just to break even? What would be the point of running your own business just so your profits are enough to cover the expenses? All your time and effort would be wasted. Buddies can afford to sell for that cheap because they either have money to back it, enough customer support to make it worth their time, or a really good deal with a supplier, or maybe they're even a supplier period. A pro shop isn't a business you have to make money, it's a business you have if you like abuse and stupid customers. You're all so smart, why don't you go get a bank loan and open your own shops? Unless you have a good economy in your city where people are willing to pay higher prices for equipment because they realize the logistics of owning a business (I see nothing wrong with drillwizard charging 229 for the Reloaded, if people pay that price, more power too him. Probably allows him a lot more freedom in other areas), you're gonna run yourself into the ground after you burn yourself out on it because the gain just isn't worth the pain.
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Forget Kung Fu, I know Ron Bahr!!!
The only difference between youth and adult leagues are that the big boys are allowed to whine. They're more entertaining anyway.
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AMEN!!! Most of the time Doug does what he does because he cares that a bowler gets to try a piece of equipment that he/she REALLY desires, even if it means breaking even. The way he does it, creates repeat customers that will pay more next time so Doug can make something, and the other thing that blossoms is pricless; FRIENDSHIP!! If it were not for Doug's unselfishness and his not being a "greedy money monger", I would not have the SAWS I have today, or ever!! There are some very good proshops here, but most will not extend to customers who are starngers like Doug. I hope he NEVER goes out of the business.
Dave
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If You Are Not the Lead SAW, All You Get is SAWdust!!
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Yeah, and that's what people don't realize. Doug is really giving of himself to go above and beyond and lower each ball to a price that probably isn't making him squat. And you people just want more. Just blows my mind. Honestly, have you people no decency or respect for a great guy? He's one of the few that will go that far to please a customer. Some of you might remember this story, but I'll tell it again.
My boss has an old couple come into the shop one day. The guy had an old plastic Brunswick that he wanted plugged and drilled to fit his span. Didn't want the fingers moved, said it was alright to just drill right back through the plug. The boss gets it done, and the guy comes back in. Puts his fingers in it and hates it. Said it was too tacky. Wants it plugged and drilled again somewhere else. So instead, the boss orders him a brand new Target Zone and drills it for the guy, all for FREE. The other ball was old, and he didn't want to risk having the plug crack.
Meanwhile, this old guy's wife wins a ball in a raffle. It was a urethane Groove. Through talking with her, he determined the ball wasn't going to hook enough for what she wanted, so he tried to talk her into buying a Power Groove, and just paying the 10 buck difference. She didn't want to do that, because she didn't like the color of any of the Power Grooves, she HAD to have the Cranberry Groove. So he went ahead and got it for her. She said she wanted it drilled to hook, so he drilled it max leverage. Of course, like he thought, it didn't end up hooking enough. So he sanded it for her for free. Still didn't hook enough. Then she said her thumb was off, so he threw a slug in there and fixed it for FREE. When he gave it to her, she said the thumbhole was too snug, so she REFUSED to let him sand it out, and just told him to keep it.
Back to her husband, the boss gets the ball done, the brand new free Target Zone, and gives it to this guy. He gets all huffy about it because evidently the old ball he brought in was memorabilia, it had been his son's, and his son had died of cancer recently. So in the midst of all of this, they'd been going around to all their senior friends and badmouthing my boss's work. The boss gave both the old guys balls to him, and put a respectful request on a note into the box with one asking them to please not badmouth him to their friends. She wrote him back with very rude and cutting remarks, saying in one place, and I quote, "You screwed up a new ball for me. It did me no good to win it. The ball did not hook, and however you said you fixed didn't end up working. I told you to drill it to hook, and it didn't. As far as I'm concerned, you can take the ball and shove it where the sun don't s____. You're a terrible pro shop owner, I think you should choose another profession."
Soooo. Then the skank- . . er, woman, wrote a letter to the Better Business Bureau about him. Oh, and this was after he ordered her a brand new Cranberry Groove to take somewhere else and have a more "competent" pro shop operator drill it better. He spent a couple HUNDRED dollars to satisfy a customer, and that was how he was repaid. Idiots beware. Rant off.
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Forget Kung Fu, I know Ron Bahr!!!
The only difference between youth and adult leagues are that the big boys are allowed to whine. They're more entertaining anyway.
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I have no problem buying supplies from my local pro shop, but I refuse to pay $200 + for a ball that can be bought on Ebay or somewhere else online for $100. I understand what running a business is all about, but if pro shop's are paying more for a ball from their local supplier than they can be bought on Ebay for, thats a problem. I think the suppliers are ripping the smaller pro shop owners off. I am also comparing new, 1st quality balls, not blems or seconds.
It also hacks me off when pro shop's try to charge $50 bucks + grips and slug to drill an "internet" ball, why is that? I guess they don't want the business. Thte guy I go to know has no problems drilling internet balls and he does it for 20 bucks or 35 bucks with slugs and insert, which is more than fair.
I know there alot of people that don't agree with buying stuff off the net, but it has saved me alot of $$ over the years.
I also had to go to about 4 pro shops in my area before I found a decent one. Most (not all) of the pro shop guys I tried where not very helpful when they knew I wanted mostly plug work done and that I wasn't gonna fork over $200 + for a new ball every month. In business, all customers should be treated the same regardless what the buy. The key words are, repeat business and word of mouth. Thats what you strive for in business nowadays.
Just my 2 cents..
JK
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Your boss sounds like a stand up guy to me, however I do not need a lesson in small business economics. Unfortunately, the model for running a bowling business has changed.
I have had the same driller for many years and I am fortunate because he also is an internet reseller. He has been successful because he has changed his way of doing business. If I can get a ball cheaper on the internet, I will buy it. It isn't being cheap to get the best price on a product. Having said that, I am more than willing to pay for good service. In many cases (auto insurance for example), I am willing to pay more because I feel I get better service than some of the less expensive carriers.
If your shop isn't making enough on merchandise markups, your boss needs to rethink how he prices his services.
Nuff Said!
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As a shop owner I will respond in that Hamster is 100% correct.
The fact is I just placed an order the other day because I customer needed special thumb inserts for his balls and he wanted all 6 of them done right away. Well at the price of the inserts and the shipping, I basically lost money on the deal because the customer had to have them done right now. Did I charge him extra? No....should I have? probably but I didn't because he is a good customer.
Extra costs like glue, shop vac filters, sharpening of drill bits and bevel knives 2x a year, replacement jig parts, replacement sanders, sanding discs, sandpaper, cleaner, polish etc...they all add up. At the beginning of each season I spend probably $250 at the local auto parts store on sandpaper, scotchbrites, epoxy and glue (and I get the stuff at body shop cost!!!). 30 drill bits to sharpen at $6 per drill bit, 3 sets of bevel knives and router bits, X Acto knife blades, layout pencils and sheets, plug color kits...the list goes on and on.
I offer free ball cleaning for 6 months with purchase of a ball from my shop. Doesn't seem like much but it adds up to a bottle or so of cleaner per ball. Yes I use true ball cleaner in such circumstances, not simply alcohol to make it look like I am cleaning the ball.
All of this for a business that, in 5 years, still has not generated enough profit to pay back the $5000 I borrowed to buy my pro shop equipment... As I have said...I am in business to help people and I think a lot of other pro shop operators are in it for the same reason. Sure it's nice to get to play with the new stuff but it's not all that possible when the profit margin isn't there.
Many times we go out of our way...WAY out of our way to help customers and get squat in return. Oh well...you reap what you sow, it will all come out in wash, however you want to look at it...in the end, after it all is over, St. Peter will let you know whether or not you did a good job :-)
Afterall...money is one thing but friendship and helping people with the same intersts as you is another. Personally, I'd prefer the latter. Gee, could that explain why I am a high school teacher? Hmmmmm...... :-D
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Doug Sterner
Doug's Pro Shop
Owego, NY
http://dougsproshop@aol.com
www.dougsproshop.net
Think about it....pins are wood, lanes are wood...
the weapon of choice is obvious...
CUT 'EM UP BABY it's BUZZSAW TIME!!!
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Doug,
I totally agree with everything you said and you are right, saving money is not everything but in my area, the pro shop guys are not very nice (at least the ones I have used). The guy I have now is a regional pro barely making enough out of his shop to get by, but I have send him several people and I do that as much as I can. He has worked in pro shops before, but never owned his own until last year. I want him to make it, not only because he does good work, but he is a friend now as well.
But the thing I don't understand is this. How can I buy NIB balls off Ebay cheaper than you pro shop guys can get them. It makes no sense to me, but even the guy I use now says he pays over $100 for any newer ball such as the Freak, Freak Out and those both can be bought on Ebay NIB for much less than $100 including shipping. I guess the guys online get a huge price break because they buy in quantity.
Once again, I say the local bowling supply distributor is screwing the local mom and pop pro shop guys and thats just not fair..
JK
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I have no idea what it takes to run a pro shop, but after reading this I have more respect for the pro shop operator. Especially with putting up with know it all customers, and yeah that probably includes me. Doug has done right by me each and every time. I never realized the little things he did for me.
I shipped him a ball to get my specs. He shipped it right back to me at his own cost. He plugged my blueberry and redrilled it for me. He shipped me the ball back again at his own cost, and I was amazed at the quality of his work. I never had a ball plugged before that didn't have bubbles in the plug work. Dougs were absolutely PERFECT.
When I injured my bowling hand he sent me his Storm Strong Arm to borrow. He sent it at his own COST. He answers my countless questions, he gives of himself more then other pro shop operator that I know of. He drives his vehicles to UPS for drop offs, and that is almost a hour from his house. All this he does and he is a full time year round High School Chemistry teacher. He helps bowlers. He helps educate our youth. He is a very good father to his children. He is a little league coach. He is a Cub scout leader. He takes his children fishing, and does R/C cars with them. He is a very good father. He is not going to be rich from being a pro shop operator. He does it for the love of the game, and to help his fellow bowlers.
So who do I use. The choice is clear in my mind. Doug Sterner.
Typh
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Well I know that where I live proshops are selling stuff for roughly $180-$200 for highend stuff. Just half an hour away the proshops get $250 for the same stuff. Economy is real bad around here.
With that said, even for the $175 drilled and shipped by Doug is more than fair. The $125 shipped taken to a proshop to be drilled equals about $160....is $15 that imortant to people? I know that there are people financially strapped.
It was hit right on the head about the free service bowlers want from a pro shop. I am opening one in the next few weeks. I think that unless a ball is bought from me (or drilled by me) that there should be a small charge to open a hole or bevel a hole, sanding, polishing or cleaning a ball.
My opinion on the buying balls online is mixed. I have bought some online. But if I buy a ball on ebay, where is the warranty? If something happens to the ball and it was an online proshop where you got, you have shipping to and from to cover, that is about $30, so where is the savings?
I guess warranty is not a big issue any longer, since in reality a ball company does not have to warranty a ball if there are finger inserts in it.
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You are correct Excalibur. I agree with you on several points. I am not a firm advocate of online purchasing but as others have said they have buddys that can drill for them so and it does help us small shops to sell on line a bit in cases like mine here.
$15 is a big deal to some...I had a guy walk out over a $3 price difference once!!! But anyway....
As for the warranty issue...I have all customers that bring me "internet balls" sign a paper saying that I am not responsible for or required to stand behind the ball I just drilled. I will notify them of any problems I have with the specs or anything before I touch the ball. They then know that I am only the guy putting in the holes. They understand I will do the best I can with what they give me but if the ball they give me doesn't do what they want, they know I will not replace it for free as I do with balls purchased from me.
If they need me to contact the company and find out about a warranty issue I will but they know they will pay me for it. They also know they will pay to have the replacement drilled if one is sent. It's just the way I do things.
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Doug Sterner
Doug's Pro Shop
Owego, NY
http://dougsproshop@aol.com
www.dougsproshop.net
Think about it....pins are wood, lanes are wood...
the weapon of choice is obvious...
CUT 'EM UP BABY it's BUZZSAW TIME!!!
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quote:
But the thing I don't understand is this. How can I buy NIB balls off Ebay cheaper than you pro shop guys can get them. It makes no sense to me, but even the guy I use now says he pays over $100 for any newer ball such as the Freak, Freak Out and those both can be bought on Ebay NIB for much less than $100 including shipping. I guess the guys online get a huge price break because they buy in quantity.
I don't search Ebay much, but I've never seen (recent, like the Freak) NIB balls with reasonable specs that sell for less than $100 including shipping. I know people must find them occasionally, but every time I see a good deal, the price shoots up the last few minutes of the auction. I do know what you mean about the internet selling balls cheaper than the pro shops can buy them for.
I buy what I can from my local shop, but I don't hesitate to buy a really good deal when I can find one. I know there's no way my local shop can compete with going out of business sales and such. He's leaning towards stocking plastic and entry level resin and letting people order anything else. He can't buy balls from his distributor for the prices that Buddies sell them for.
I pay $60 for a drill with milled oval fingers and a thumb slug. A little high, but he's extremely accurate. I've tried cheaper shops, but the pitches are never accurate enough. I buy all of my tape and accessories from him as well. If I need a quick cleaning or adjustment, it's never a problem.
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Penn State Proud
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Strider,
I have bought several NIB balls such as the Freak, Superfreak and lastly a Turbo Diesel for less than $100 shipped off Ebay. I have had the most luck with auctions that end during the day versus at night when everyone is online bidding.
JK
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Wow, guess I need to pay more attention. I work a swing shift and have a lot of days free. Thanks for the tip.
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Penn State Proud
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Strider,
the advice is free, just don't outbid me!! LOL..
JK
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Who has the Superfreak for sale for less than 100 shipped?
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drillwizard,
I sent you a message..
Edited on 7/19/2003 12:21 PM
Edited on 7/19/2003 12:27 PM
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My god you people are really whining about offering a service to people. If you don't like working with people you need to find a new job or a new business to operate. I have bought a ball on-line and I have bought a ball from the pro-shop on the military base where I happen to work. I did get the ball for wholesale because I know the bowling manager, but for god sakes people we are a country driven by the market. Would you pay more for a service if you could get it cheaper somewhere else? I don't think you would. People want the best deal that they can get. I live in Vegas so I have plenty of houses that I can go to to shop, but check out the prices. With the advent of the internet a business must adjust to what the market demands, and make no bones about it the market is demading lower prices. I support my local house by bowling in a league and by coming in for lunch. If I need any work done then I DO expect to pay for it.
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Strider,
What you are saying is exactly what I try to do. I try to give people the best service that I can provide and hope that even if I charge $10 more than someone else, that the service will bring them back. When I get some truly dedicated customers they get great deals. Do they pay full price for a box of tape or a towel? Nope...suppose a box of tape and a towel comes to $12....I tell them to give me $10 and just amke sure you come back.
I do the same thing when I have to fix balls for people that have had them screwed up elsewhere. I won't charge them "full" price and when they say thank you, I tell them, "you can thank me by doing well with the ball and when you do I hope you will bring your business back."
I honestly think WalMart has it right....treat the customers right even if you have to eat a product now and then and they will keep coming back. As I have said numerous times...worked in the Sporting Good Dept in Lewisburg, PA Store #1644 for 5 years...we took our share of lumps and bruises. Heck we even ended up taking back a basket ball that was bought for a gift at Christmas that had a K-Mart tag on it!!! But guess what? Ther customer got their $12 back for the ball and turned around and bought a $30 ball....it pays to be nice at times even if you don't agree with it.
As for why Buddies can sell cheaper than suppliers, well it's the big dog vs little dog scenario. The food companies know that the big dogs eat more so they push the "big dog food" because they know they will sell more. As for the little dogs, well, they get what is put ouot there for them. Same with pro shops. I know shops that will go out and spend $70-$80,000 in the fall at supplier trade shows on equipment. My gross sales last year were $24,000 TOTAL!!! If you are a supplier, who are you going to give cut rate prices to me or him?
Is it right? no. Is it fair? no. But is anything in life really fair? no. What do we need to do? suck it up and deal with it.
But there is a silver lining. There are some of us smaller shops that have gotten together and complained. Apparently the manufacturers and suppliers listened. They have limited trade show purchases this year to 1 or 2 offers per shop or even limited the number of packages that the supplier has to offer.
It'll all shake out in the end....
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Doug Sterner
Doug's Pro Shop
Owego, NY
http://dougsproshop@aol.com
www.dougsproshop.net
Think about it....pins are wood, lanes are wood...
the weapon of choice is obvious...
CUT 'EM UP BABY it's BUZZSAW TIME!!!
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quote:
What you are saying is exactly what I try to do. I try to give people the best service that I can provide and hope that even if I charge $10 more than someone else, that the service will bring them back. When I get some truly dedicated customers they get great deals. Do they pay full price for a box of tape or a towel? Nope...suppose a box of tape and a towel comes to $12....I tell them to give me $10 and just amke sure you come back.
Are you in a small town Doug? I grew up in a rural farming comunity of 2500 people, and this is the type of thing you'd see at most businesses there. Sorry, I have not done business with Doug, and it's not because I don't think he's a great guy. But I've found a proshop here that treats me just like Doug treats his customers. First, I bought a urethane spare ball, and was quite impressed with how that transaction transpired. So I went back and bought a Savage during their demo days promotion and was again satisfied. Well, the surprise came when I bought a 4 ball roller from them and was offered a discount without even asking!! Of course, I bought my 3rd ball (the Stinger LF) and we had a tough time getting that tamed down enough for what I wanted, but they did get it right (all the time reassuring me if it wasn't made right, they'd get me another ball that would be). So, I recently bought a pair of Dexter SST6's for me and the SST5's for my wife. Admittedly, I asked for a discount this time (cause lets face it, these shoes are not cheap!), and they gave me 5% more discount than I had asked for!! So yeah, I'm pretty loyal - they've exceeded my expectations on every level, so if it cost an extra 5 or 10 bucks, so what. I'll probably get it back plus some later on.
Some of you might call me a sucker, but 9 times out of 10 I feel you get what you pay for. Sure, I've had bad dealings with supposedly "reputable" businesses - but I guarantee they only got my money once. I'm loyal to those people/companies that get it done right the first time - my time and peace of mind is more valuable than saving a couple bucks.
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Why, WHY won't the last one just fall?? It's WIGGLING for cryin' out loud!!