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Author Topic: Clean game definition  (Read 22401 times)

ldkelleyb5

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Clean game definition
« on: September 04, 2017, 06:33:44 PM »
If you get 1 mark in the 10th, is it considered a clean game?  I'm fairly sure that if you get a spare and change in the 10th, it should be a clean game, but I'm wondering more about a strike, then, say, a 7 count, then a 2.

Just something I've been wondering about for some time, and everyone seems to have a different answer.
Thanks!
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dmonroe814

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Re: Clean game definition
« Reply #106 on: September 18, 2017, 11:14:04 AM »
Quote from: Good Times Good Times on September 18, 2017, 10:24:31 AM
Quote from: dmonroe814 on September 18, 2017, 08:51:16 AM
Since there are no "rules" for the clean game, I asked the USBC tournament committee because they run the 30 and clean jackpot.  I gave them scenarios: the 10th frame.
X8/ is clean.
8/7 is clean.
X81 Clean or Not Clean?
Their response:  The concept of a clean game is a strike or spare is made in each frame.  If a strike or spare is thrown in the tenth frame a clean game is bowled.  The additional deliveries have no bearing on whether a clean game was bowled or not.

Based on the scenarios you provided below, all are clean games.

#LowerStandardsatUSBCOpen

Again if I go 29 clean, then X81 in the 10th of the 3rd game.  That's good enough to collect the $ there by rule.

But you'll never hear me say shit about being 30 clean unless it's by my definition. 
If I get my money, you can call it whatever you want.
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Good Times Good Times

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Re: Clean game definition
« Reply #107 on: September 18, 2017, 12:15:31 PM »
Quote from: dmonroe814 on September 18, 2017, 11:14:04 AM
Quote from: Good Times Good Times on September 18, 2017, 10:24:31 AM
Quote from: dmonroe814 on September 18, 2017, 08:51:16 AM
Since there are no "rules" for the clean game, I asked the USBC tournament committee because they run the 30 and clean jackpot.  I gave them scenarios: the 10th frame.
X8/ is clean.
8/7 is clean.
X81 Clean or Not Clean?
Their response:  The concept of a clean game is a strike or spare is made in each frame.  If a strike or spare is thrown in the tenth frame a clean game is bowled.  The additional deliveries have no bearing on whether a clean game was bowled or not.

Based on the scenarios you provided below, all are clean games.

#LowerStandardsatUSBCOpen

Again if I go 29 clean, then X81 in the 10th of the 3rd game.  That's good enough to collect the $ there by rule.

But you'll never hear me say shit about being 30 clean unless it's by my definition. 
If I get my money, you can call it whatever you want.

Truth, at USBC Open get your money!
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Steven

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Re: Clean game definition
« Reply #108 on: September 18, 2017, 02:43:08 PM »
Quote from: dmonroe814 on September 18, 2017, 08:51:16 AM
Since there are no "rules" for the clean game, I asked the USBC tournament committee because they run the 30 and clean jackpot.  I gave them scenarios: the 10th frame.
X8/ is clean.
8/7 is clean.
X81 Clean or Not Clean?
Their response:  The concept of a clean game is a strike or spare is made in each frame.  If a strike or spare is thrown in the tenth frame a clean game is bowled.  The additional deliveries have no bearing on whether a clean game was bowled or not.

Based on the scenarios you provided below, all are clean games.

 
Good information. It appears that at some point the ABC/USBC made a decision to treat the beginning of the tenth just like frames 1-9.
 
But there is at least one problem I see with this:


USBC rules seem to recognize the concept of an open after an initial strike in the 10th:
 
 
 2g. Open
An open is recorded when a player fails to knock down all 10 pins after two deliveries in a frame.
   

I could be interpreting this wrong as it would relate to a strike with the first ball in the 10th, followed by an open in the "11th". But it appears to apply. The rule does not specifically say the first two deliveries in a frame. And we know from keeping score that the "11th" would show an open.
 
Even if the USBC wants to ignore the fictitious "11th", it doesn't negate the reality that you might still need 2 shots to knock down all 10 pins before the game is complete, and finally declare the game "clean". Maybe this is one of those situations where logic just doesn't apply.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2017, 03:31:27 PM by Steven »
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dmonroe814

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Re: Clean game definition
« Reply #109 on: September 18, 2017, 06:08:43 PM »
You are missing one small point.  There are only 10 frames in a game.  The 10th frame consists of one frame plus one or possibly 2 bonus throws.  If you mark with a spare in the 10th, then you get one bonus throw.  If you mark with a strike in the 10th, then you get 2 bonus throws.  Bonus throws do not count toward the clean game.
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Steven

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Re: Clean game definition
« Reply #110 on: September 18, 2017, 07:08:58 PM »
Quote from: dmonroe814 on September 18, 2017, 06:08:43 PM
You are missing one small point.  There are only 10 frames in a game.  The 10th frame consists of one frame plus one or possibly 2 bonus throws.  If you mark with a spare in the 10th, then you get one bonus throw.  If you mark with a strike in the 10th, then you get 2 bonus throws.  Bonus throws do not count toward the clean game.


If you get the first strike in the 10th, the frame continues with two additional shots. If you fail to knock down all 10 pins with the next two shots, isn't that an open according to rule 2g?
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Aloarjr810

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Re: Clean game definition
« Reply #111 on: September 18, 2017, 07:46:39 PM »
Quote from: Steven on September 18, 2017, 07:08:58 PM
Quote from: dmonroe814 on September 18, 2017, 06:08:43 PM
You are missing one small point.  There are only 10 frames in a game.  The 10th frame consists of one frame plus one or possibly 2 bonus throws.  If you mark with a spare in the 10th, then you get one bonus throw.  If you mark with a strike in the 10th, then you get 2 bonus throws.  Bonus throws do not count toward the clean game.


If you get the first strike in the 10th, the frame continues with two additional shots. If you fail to knock down all 10 pins with the next two shots, isn't that an open according to rule 2g?

2g just says its open if you dont knock down 10 pins in a frame.

So if you knock down at least 10 pins in the tenth frame, its not a open frame.
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charlest

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Re: Clean game definition
« Reply #112 on: September 18, 2017, 09:55:43 PM »
Quote from: Steven on September 18, 2017, 07:08:58 PM
Quote from: dmonroe814 on September 18, 2017, 06:08:43 PM
You are missing one small point.  There are only 10 frames in a game.  The 10th frame consists of one frame plus one or possibly 2 bonus throws.  If you mark with a spare in the 10th, then you get one bonus throw.  If you mark with a strike in the 10th, then you get 2 bonus throws.  Bonus throws do not count toward the clean game.


If you get the first strike in the 10th, the frame continues with two additional shots. If you fail to knock down all 10 pins with the next two shots, isn't that an open according to rule 2g?

Is there now a special definition to the 10th frame? I was not aware of that.

The frame does not, as near as I can tell, continue. They are not called "fill" balls for nothing. You're "fulflling" the 10th frame in which you are entitled to the count garnered by the fall of 1 or 2 more balls, as the case may be. It is not the "11"th frame, which does not truly exist. You are just finding out how many extra pins you will get as a bonus for your mark in the 10th frame, the last "frame" of the game.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2017, 09:57:59 PM by charlest »
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tommygn

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Re: Clean game definition
« Reply #113 on: September 18, 2017, 10:07:58 PM »
Quote from: charlest on September 18, 2017, 09:55:43 PM
Quote from: Steven on September 18, 2017, 07:08:58 PM
Quote from: dmonroe814 on September 18, 2017, 06:08:43 PM
You are missing one small point.  There are only 10 frames in a game.  The 10th frame consists of one frame plus one or possibly 2 bonus throws.  If you mark with a spare in the 10th, then you get one bonus throw.  If you mark with a strike in the 10th, then you get 2 bonus throws.  Bonus throws do not count toward the clean game.


If you get the first strike in the 10th, the frame continues with two additional shots. If you fail to knock down all 10 pins with the next two shots, isn't that an open according to rule 2g?

Is there now a special definition to the 10th frame? I was not aware of that.

The frame does not, as near as I can tell, continue. They are not called "fill" balls for nothing. You're "fulflling" the 10th frame in which you are entitled to the count garnered by the fall of 1 or 2 more balls, as the case may be. It is not the "11"th frame, which does not truly exist. You are just finding out how many extra pins you will get as a bonus for your mark in the 10th frame, the last "frame" of the game.

Calling the extra shots " fill balls" is as much of a made up term as calling it the 11th and 12th frames.  Can't have it both ways.  Besides,  I usually hear them called 11th and 12th balls,  rarely have I heard them called frames, but for the sake of the argument...

Rules book clearly refers to shots as deliveries.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2017, 10:04:27 AM by tommygn »
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Steven

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Re: Clean game definition
« Reply #114 on: September 19, 2017, 10:25:34 AM »
Quote from: charlest on September 18, 2017, 09:55:43 PM

Is there now a special definition to the 10th frame? I was not aware of that.

The frame does not, as near as I can tell, continue. They are not called "fill" balls for nothing. You're "fulflling" the 10th frame in which you are entitled to the count garnered by the fall of 1 or 2 more balls, as the case may be. It is not the "11"th frame, which does not truly exist. You are just finding out how many extra pins you will get as a bonus for your mark in the 10th frame, the last "frame" of the game.

 
The 10th frame is "special", or at least different, because you have the potential for 3 deliveries instead of just 2. So a frame is not a frame. If you do a search in the rules book, you'll not get a hit on "fill". It's simply not there. 
 
I understand the rationale for artificially finishing the game, for the purposes of "clean", after the first 2 deliveries in the 10th. The scoring designers wanted to make all frames equal in determining clean. Again, I get that. In competition, you accept the definition, go with it, and congratulate anyone who gets an award or makes money accomplishing it. I always have and always will.
 
But the fact is that the game isn't over after making a strike with the first delivery in the 10th. The game has 2 deliveries left. Those deliveries conclude with either a mark or an open. If you can't knock down all 10 pins with those final 2 deliveries, you really haven't reached the finish line without a blemish. Hopefully, the most extreme example of finishing with 2 gutter balls and being considered clean should drive that point home.   
 
To those who addressed rule 2g, thanks for the clarification. In reading, it's not 100% clear if it applies to any 2 consecutive deliveries in the 10th, or just to the first two. After all this discussion, I'm guessing it's just the first two.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2017, 10:29:36 AM by Steven »
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charlest

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Re: Clean game definition
« Reply #115 on: September 19, 2017, 03:29:20 PM »
Quote from: tommygn on September 18, 2017, 10:07:58 PM
Quote from: charlest on September 18, 2017, 09:55:43 PM
Quote from: Steven on September 18, 2017, 07:08:58 PM
Quote from: dmonroe814 on September 18, 2017, 06:08:43 PM
You are missing one small point.  There are only 10 frames in a game.  The 10th frame consists of one frame plus one or possibly 2 bonus throws.  If you mark with a spare in the 10th, then you get one bonus throw.  If you mark with a strike in the 10th, then you get 2 bonus throws.  Bonus throws do not count toward the clean game.


If you get the first strike in the 10th, the frame continues with two additional shots. If you fail to knock down all 10 pins with the next two shots, isn't that an open according to rule 2g?

Is there now a special definition to the 10th frame? I was not aware of that.

The frame does not, as near as I can tell, continue. They are not called "fill" balls for nothing. You're "fulflling" the 10th frame in which you are entitled to the count garnered by the fall of 1 or 2 more balls, as the case may be. It is not the "11"th frame, which does not truly exist. You are just finding out how many extra pins you will get as a bonus for your mark in the 10th frame, the last "frame" of the game.

Calling the extra shots " fill balls" is as much of a made up term as calling it the 11th and 12th frames.  Can't have it both ways.  Besides,  I usually hear them called 11th and 12th balls,  rarely have I heard them called frames, but for the sake of the argument...

Rules book clearly refers to shots as deliveries.

While fill balls is clearly a term for those shots/deliveries, it is much more valid, conceptually speaking, than is the term, 11th or 12th frame, since that violates the definition of a "game".
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charlest

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Re: Clean game definition
« Reply #116 on: September 19, 2017, 03:33:30 PM »
Quote from: Steven on September 19, 2017, 10:25:34 AM
Quote from: charlest on September 18, 2017, 09:55:43 PM

Is there now a special definition to the 10th frame? I was not aware of that.

The frame does not, as near as I can tell, continue. They are not called "fill" balls for nothing. You're "fulflling" the 10th frame in which you are entitled to the count garnered by the fall of 1 or 2 more balls, as the case may be. It is not the "11"th frame, which does not truly exist. You are just finding out how many extra pins you will get as a bonus for your mark in the 10th frame, the last "frame" of the game.

 
The 10th frame is "special", or at least different, because you have the potential for 3 deliveries instead of just 2. So a frame is not a frame. If you do a search in the rules book, you'll not get a hit on "fill". It's simply not there. 
 
I understand the rationale for artificially finishing the game, for the purposes of "clean", after the first 2 deliveries in the 10th. The scoring designers wanted to make all frames equal in determining clean. Again, I get that. In competition, you accept the definition, go with it, and congratulate anyone who gets an award or makes money accomplishing it. I always have and always will.
 
But the fact is that the game isn't over after making a strike with the first delivery in the 10th. The game has 2 deliveries left. Those deliveries conclude with either a mark or an open. If you can't knock down all 10 pins with those final 2 deliveries, you really haven't reached the finish line without a blemish. Hopefully, the most extreme example of finishing with 2 gutter balls and being considered clean should drive that point home.   
 
To those who addressed rule 2g, thanks for the clarification. In reading, it's not 100% clear if it applies to any 2 consecutive deliveries in the 10th, or just to the first two. After all this discussion, I'm guessing it's just the first two.

I agree. I think that is what we are all stumbling over here, bascially because the rules have not given a way to reference the 3rd ball/shot/delivery after a spare in the 10th, or the 2nd and 3rd ball/shot/delivery after a strike int he 10th frame.

Those "deliveries" are required to complete the game. We need something either official/legal or we need to agree to a term or terms to describe them, to which everyone can agree.
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tommygn

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Re: Clean game definition
« Reply #117 on: September 19, 2017, 03:40:21 PM »
Quote from: charlest on September 19, 2017, 03:29:20 PM
Quote from: tommygn on September 18, 2017, 10:07:58 PM
Quote from: charlest on September 18, 2017, 09:55:43 PM
Quote from: Steven on September 18, 2017, 07:08:58 PM
Quote from: dmonroe814 on September 18, 2017, 06:08:43 PM
You are missing one small point.  There are only 10 frames in a game.  The 10th frame consists of one frame plus one or possibly 2 bonus throws.  If you mark with a spare in the 10th, then you get one bonus throw.  If you mark with a strike in the 10th, then you get 2 bonus throws.  Bonus throws do not count toward the clean game.


If you get the first strike in the 10th, the frame continues with two additional shots. If you fail to knock down all 10 pins with the next two shots, isn't that an open according to rule 2g?

Is there now a special definition to the 10th frame? I was not aware of that.

The frame does not, as near as I can tell, continue. They are not called "fill" balls for nothing. You're "fulflling" the 10th frame in which you are entitled to the count garnered by the fall of 1 or 2 more balls, as the case may be. It is not the "11"th frame, which does not truly exist. You are just finding out how many extra pins you will get as a bonus for your mark in the 10th frame, the last "frame" of the game.

Calling the extra shots " fill balls" is as much of a made up term as calling it the 11th and 12th frames.  Can't have it both ways.  Besides,  I usually hear them called 11th and 12th balls,  rarely have I heard them called frames, but for the sake of the argument...

Rules book clearly refers to shots as deliveries.

While fill balls is clearly a term for those shots/deliveries, it is much more valid, conceptually speaking, than is the term, 11th or 12th frame, since that violates the definition of a "game".


I will agree with your statement in theory,  however, I've seen plenty of 12th frame pro shops, 11th frame lounges, 12th frame snack bars, etc.....  I have yet to see one fill ball lounge, lol. Right or wrong, 11th or 12th frame is a more commonly accepted and universally used made up phrase to indicate those extra deliveries in the tenth.
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milorafferty

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Re: Clean game definition
« Reply #118 on: September 19, 2017, 03:42:51 PM »
Fill Ball Lounge would be a good name for a band.  :D
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tommygn

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Re: Clean game definition
« Reply #119 on: September 19, 2017, 03:44:37 PM »
Quote from: milorafferty on September 19, 2017, 03:42:51 PM
Fill Ball Lounge would be a good name for a band.  :D

Could be a true double entadre.   8)
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avabob

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Re: Clean game definition
« Reply #120 on: September 19, 2017, 05:41:46 PM »
I have seen a lot of 19th hole golf course lounges too.  Here's the thing.  There is a reason you don't fund clean gsne defined in the rule book, just as you don't see Brooklyn, Dutch 2000, and other idioms of the game.  If you get your satisfaction from filing the 10th with a strike and spare, great.  Of course that is marginally better than a strike and 9 out.  Personally I am a lot more disappointed in not getting the second strike than in covering the remaining spare. 
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