win a ball from Bowling.com
« previous next »
Pages: 1 [2] 3

Author Topic: Clean game  (Read 8408 times)

avabob

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2779
Clean game
« on: May 24, 2016, 09:45:53 AM »
I bowl in a league that gives open play credits for split conversions, clean games, and certain scores like 33 in the 3rd 66 in the 6th, and 99 in the 9th.  Last night I was clean going in to the 10th.  I struck my first ball, left a 4-6 on my second ball, which I did not convert.  Did I have a clean game?
Logged

 

milorafferty

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11190
  • I have a name, therefore no preferred pronouns.
Re: Clean game
« Reply #16 on: May 24, 2016, 11:59:19 AM »
There is obviously no "rule" that defines this clearly, but I refuse to "cheapen" the game any further.

An open is an open. Otherwise, just bowl no tap.
Logged
"If guns kill people, do pencils misspell words?"

"If you don't stand for our flag, then don't expect me to give a damn about your feelings."

tkkshop

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1173
Re: Clean game
« Reply #17 on: May 24, 2016, 12:05:50 PM »
Per usbc, that's a clean game. 10 marks in 10 frames is clean.
Logged

spmcgivern

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2079
Re: Clean game
« Reply #18 on: May 24, 2016, 12:41:41 PM »
Quote from: tkkshop on May 24, 2016, 12:05:50 PM
Per usbc, that's a clean game. 10 marks in 10 frames is clean.

This.

When at Nationals, you would have been given credit for a clean game.
Logged

Steven

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7680
Re: Clean game
« Reply #19 on: May 24, 2016, 01:50:29 PM »
There is what's written by the USBC, and what we know intuitively. Remember, the USBC also believes 116% is the ideal handicap. :o
 
I shot a 298 last week, leaving an 8-10 on the last shot. There is no way I'd want credit for a clean game. All I know is that looking up at the score, there was an unresolved 8 count hanging there. I'd want to see nothing but strikes and spares, and I clearly didn't do it.
 
But to each his own on this. As Milo stated, there is always no-tap if you want to settle for less.
Logged

avabob

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2779
Re: Clean game
« Reply #20 on: May 24, 2016, 02:37:51 PM »
I expected some controversy on this, but never expected someone to argue that a 298 with an 8-10 is not a clean game.  My argument would be it is a clean game unless you give me the opportunity within the confines of the game to throw at the 8-10.   

A league can certainly make any rule it wants for pot purposes, but I really think absent any special rule, that my original scenario is a clean game. 
Logged

tkkshop

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1173
Re: Clean game
« Reply #21 on: May 24, 2016, 02:45:21 PM »
Quote from: Steven on May 24, 2016, 01:50:29 PM
There is what's written by the USBC, and what we know intuitively. Remember, the USBC also believes 116% is the ideal handicap. :o
But this is not a rule. Just a guideline. By rule, USBC declares 10 marks in 10 frames a clean game.
Logged

Aloarjr810

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2149
  • Alley Katz Strike!
Re: Clean game
« Reply #22 on: May 24, 2016, 03:37:08 PM »
Quote from: Steven on May 24, 2016, 01:50:29 PM
There is what's written by the USBC, and what we know intuitively. Remember, the USBC also believes 116% is the ideal handicap. :o
 
The usbc does not say that, they just say An exact 50-50 distribution of league championships would result only if a 116% handicap was used.

They dont advocate using it either.
Logged
Aloarjr810
----------
Click For My Grip

Steven

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7680
Re: Clean game
« Reply #23 on: May 24, 2016, 07:02:30 PM »
Quote from: Aloarjr810 on May 24, 2016, 03:37:08 PM
Quote from: Steven on May 24, 2016, 01:50:29 PM
There is what's written by the USBC, and what we know intuitively. Remember, the USBC also believes 116% is the ideal handicap. :o
 
The usbc does not say that, they just say An exact 50-50 distribution of league championships would result only if a 116% handicap was used.

They dont advocate using it either.

The fact that they specifically point out that 116% provides for the most equitable chance of a league championship across all teams is an implied endorsement. Since the stated intent of handicap (from the USBC perspective) is to provide for equity, I don't know how you can interpret their study any different.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2016, 07:18:29 PM by Steven »
Logged

Aloarjr810

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2149
  • Alley Katz Strike!
Re: Clean game
« Reply #24 on: May 24, 2016, 07:22:39 PM »
Quote from: Steven on May 24, 2016, 07:02:30 PM
Quote from: Aloarjr810 on May 24, 2016, 03:37:08 PM
Quote from: Steven on May 24, 2016, 01:50:29 PM
There is what's written by the USBC, and what we know intuitively. Remember, the USBC also believes 116% is the ideal handicap. :o
 
The usbc does not say that, they just say An exact 50-50 distribution of league championships would result only if a 116% handicap was used.

They dont advocate using it either.

The fact that they specifically point out that 116% provides for the most equitable chance of a league championship across all teams is an implied endorsement. Since the stated intent of handicap (from the USBC perspective) is to provide for equity, I don't know how you can interpret their study any different.
This is from the USBC facts about handicap sheet:

Question:
If a handicap percent of 116% would result in absolutely equalizing competition in
handicap leagues, then why doesn’t the USBC advocate the use of that percent of handicap to the exclusion of all others?

FACT: Nobody wants to deprive the more skillful of the benefits of their superior skill. If the
more proficient bowlers have an edge, it is one they’ve earned. It is a premium, which comes
from more diligent efforts to improve their capabilities. That incentive should not be taken
away, regardless of the level at which a bowler competes.


So that say's they don't advocate using it.

If you look in the rule book they advocate using 100%

Commonly Asked Questions – Rule 100g.
100g/1 What is a good handicap percentage for a league with members who have a wide
range of averages?
One hundred percent of the difference between a bowler’s average and a base higher than
any average within the league is a good percentage to balance the disparity in averages.
One hundred percent handicap basically makes the competition a “pins over average”
competition, because if the two teams bowl average they will be tied.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2016, 07:27:31 PM by Aloarjr810 »
Logged
Aloarjr810
----------
Click For My Grip

TDC57

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1273
Re: Clean game
« Reply #25 on: May 24, 2016, 07:28:22 PM »
Not calling a 298 game a clean game shows a clear lack of grasp on reality. You are the ultimate purist! You obviously can't convert the 8 count because the game is over. What's next for you, a hole in one is not clean unless the ball enters the hole on the fly?
« Last Edit: May 24, 2016, 07:32:11 PM by TDC57 »
Logged

Steven

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7680
Re: Clean game
« Reply #26 on: May 24, 2016, 08:50:39 PM »
Quote from: TDC57 on May 24, 2016, 07:28:22 PM
Not calling a 298 game a clean game shows a clear lack of grasp on reality. You are the ultimate purist! You obviously can't convert the 8 count because the game is over. What's next for you, a hole in one is not clean unless the ball enters the hole on the fly?

 
I made it clear from the beginning that this is my perspective on a clean game. I believe that regardless of the score, if I look up and see a frame that has anything less than a strike or spare, it's not clean. I should have thrown a strike on the 12th shot to avoid the blemish.
 
Before our league modified the "clean series" rule, we were getting 3-5 bowlers hitting the pot every week. It was essentially a meaningless achievement. Tightening requirements in the 10th made things a challenge. Now there are weeks where nobody wins and the pot grows. What a concept! If that level of purity (and reality) offends you, sorry.
Logged

Steven

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7680
Re: Clean game
« Reply #27 on: May 24, 2016, 09:10:28 PM »
Quote from: Aloarjr810 on May 24, 2016, 07:22:39 PM

This is from the USBC facts about handicap sheet:

Question:
If a handicap percent of 116% would result in absolutely equalizing competition in
handicap leagues, then why doesn’t the USBC advocate the use of that percent of handicap to the exclusion of all others?

FACT: Nobody wants to deprive the more skillful of the benefits of their superior skill. If the
more proficient bowlers have an edge, it is one they’ve earned. It is a premium, which comes
from more diligent efforts to improve their capabilities. That incentive should not be taken
away, regardless of the level at which a bowler competes.


So that say's they don't advocate using it.

 
Here is another USBC publication that suggests 116% is the sweet spot:
 
http://usbcongress.http.internapcdn.net/usbcongress/bowl/rules/pdfs/Handicap%20Facts.pdf
 
From the Facts PDF:
 
The United States Bowling Congress (USBC) defines handicapping as the means of placing bowlers and teams of varying degrees of bowling skill on as equitable a basis as possible for competition against each other.
   
Even at 100% handicap, as the above chart shows (see referenced PDF), the higher average teams or bowlers still have a decided edge. Seventy out of 100 championships are still won by the higher average team when 100% handicap is used. An exact 50-50 distribution of league championships would result only if a 116% handicap was used.   
 
...........................
   
Ok..... so if the USBC defines the goal of handicap as providing optimum equity, and the most equity is achieved through 116% handicap,  it seems they've defined a 116% standard, unless there are other factors that might come into play. 
 
Maybe the USBC is talking out of both sides of their mouth on the issue. But the PDF I referenced seems pretty clear.
 
On edit: I found the the Q&A component you referenced in another link. I'm still seeing two different messages being sent. But I didn't bring this up to debate what the "right" handicap should be. My point is that it's dangerous taking everything the USBC says to the bank.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2016, 09:33:39 PM by Steven »
Logged

Pinbuster

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4585
  • Former proshop worker
Re: Clean game
« Reply #28 on: May 24, 2016, 09:57:50 PM »
I believe the vast majority of bowlers I know consider 10 marks in game a clean game.

Personally I feel if you strike on the first ball in the 10th then you need to spare if you don't strike on the next ball.

However I would consider a 298 a clean game.
Logged

avabob

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2779
Re: Clean game
« Reply #29 on: May 25, 2016, 10:17:09 PM »
Not sure how tightening the requirements to win a pot has anything to do with purity.  Just because too many guys are throwing clean series isn't criteria for changing the most widely accepted definition for a clean game
Logged

Steven

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7680
Re: Clean game
« Reply #30 on: May 26, 2016, 09:20:06 AM »
Look, as I said earlier, I understand the widely accepted definition for a clean game. It essentially says that you should have two chances to knock down all the pins in any given frame. It basically throws the 11th and 12th out the window. I have no expectations this definition will ever be changed, any more than I would expect bowlers to ever adopt overall tougher conditions.
 
Again, I get it, I just personally don't agree. In my mind, anything other than a strike or spare anywhere on the score sheet is less than clean. I believe the extra challenge of having to mark in the 11th or 12th to avoid a blemish adds to the integrity of the feat. 
 
To your original question I do not believe you achieved a clean game. We're just going to have to have to disagree on the overall definition.
Logged
Pages: 1 [2] 3
« previous next »