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Author Topic: Coaches, please comment  (Read 3246 times)

rcorbitt

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Coaches, please comment
« on: August 11, 2011, 04:14:58 AM »
Recently, I posted on another forum, looking for help with my release. I uploaded several views (front, back, side, release, ball with tape showing pap, etc ...) for the certified coaches to critique. I asked a specific question about how to change the release. ALL the responses I received contained photos of professional bowlers, demonstrating the perfect, modern release.
 
Not one coach discussed how to make a change to my game. I was told to emulate Wes Malott, Chris Barnes, Robert Smith, and Tommy Jones.  (Guys with rev rates averaging over 400 ... I'm about 325-350.) None of these guys match my physique and are at least 10 years younger than me.
 
I'm wondering, is this the normal methodology to coaching now? Are we teaching young bowlers to emulate the styles of just a few to make it easier? Or, did I just happen on three or four guys who could identify my problem, but didn't have a clue how to correct it? BTW - these are all USBC Certified Coaches ...
 
Thoughts? Comments? 



 

Coolerman

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Re: Coaches, please comment
« Reply #1 on: August 11, 2011, 12:42:10 PM »
rcorbitt I'm going to make this quick and simple.The USBC coaching staff,lead by team USA head

coach Rod Ross,are under the impression that are their current teaching methods are all to be based

on the top pros in the world.All their coaching manuals for bronze,silver,gold,teach that the methods of

the best are what is to be emulated,and not taking into consideration that each person is different,and

that we should be working within the framework of each individual bowlers style.

All their coaching classes are like watching a PBA or team USA video.

 Find someone in your area of the country,that will work within framework of your current game.Not

everyone needs to be to be a carbon copy of TJ,or Wes.  



 
Edited by Coolerman on 8/11/2011 at 1:22 PM

spmcgivern

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Re: Coaches, please comment
« Reply #2 on: August 11, 2011, 01:18:36 PM »
I agree with coolerman.  No matter your goal, receiving coaching online can only tell you what you should or shouldn't strive to achieve.  It is nearly impossible to be effective at telling you what to do "specifically" to achieve that goal without being on the lanes with you to see how different things work for you. 

 

Yes, if I could throw the ball like all the top pros, I would most likely score better.  But if your goal is to be more behind the ball and reduce your rotation (working the inside of the ball, or whatever the new term is), then seeing a picture, or sequence of pictures, may give you an idea of what is considered a successful modern release.  How to accomplish that is another story, but you now know what you should strive for. 

 

Ultimately you will need real time coaching if you can't figure out how to accomplish the changes.  That will require a live coach with you to help with those changes.

 

And, if you get closer to the "modern release" but not quite, would you consider that successful?  The intent of coaching to become better, not a clone.


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milorafferty

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Re: Coaches, please comment
« Reply #3 on: August 11, 2011, 01:29:55 PM »
Since you are in North Carolina, you should get in contact with Ron Clifton. He is in Winston-Salem, so if that is close enough to you it would be a good option.
  
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Coolerman

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Re: Coaches, please comment
« Reply #4 on: August 11, 2011, 01:55:52 PM »




 Surely you've noticed how one instruction article conflicts with other instruction articles, sometimes within the same magazine or website. If the articles conflict with one another, then how do you know which is correct, if any? Of course, It could have mentioned one video conflicting with another video.



The bottom line: most people who believe they know a lot about the bowling really don't. Most of their knowledge is really only incorrect information—a hodgepodge of conflicting theories.





I can understand why so many bowlers are disenchanted with the instruction process, and rightly so—you take lessons but you don't improve. I hate to say it, but this is mostly their fault because they demand instant results. They don't stand a chance if you think you're going to get significant results within a week, or even a month! Of course, coaches will try to give you what you want, which only encourages them to rely on short term band-aid instruction techniques, which ultimately does nothing to improve your game for the long run.



If you aren't going to do it right, and by this I mean practicing properly and finding a good instructor, then don't do it at all!



If you do decide to take lessons, be sure you understand what it takes to improve. You also need to be selective when you choose your instructor. Find a coach who teaches because they like to teach and because they have a serious desire to help their students improve.




Smash49

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Re: Coaches, please comment
« Reply #5 on: August 11, 2011, 02:18:43 PM »
"I'm wondering, is this the normal methodology to  coaching now? Are we teaching young bowlers to emulate the styles of  just a few to make it easier? Or, did I just happen on three or four  guys who could identify my problem, but didn't have a clue how to  correct it? BTW - these are all USBC Certified Coaches ..."
 
The answer is NO.  I do not teach anyone to imitate anyone, especially the pros.  Very very rarely will I even mention the pros during training.  I have the the manuals for level 1, 2, bronze, silver and the gold certification check list and no where does it have anything about comparing to the pros.  I do use videos of Stefani  Nation and Lynda Barnes to demonstrate approaches and teach etiquette.  I am probably the only person using them in demonstration due to the fact that I asked Steve Wunderlich for them.  I use them as an example only.  I have been coaching for ten years and have never heard of emulating anyone other than that.
 
Smash49
 
 
 
 


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Coolerman

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Re: Coaches, please comment
« Reply #6 on: August 11, 2011, 02:32:07 PM »
Smash49/,Let me correct myself.In the 2010 silver level classes Rod Ross and Steve Padilla taught

that all the methods they are teaching are based of years of studying the best bowlers,and what

they do well.The notes in the book they wanted us to make are in the book,not the book itself.So based on what

they are telling us, is,these bowlers styles are examples of what we should we studying and teaching, 

 from the stance,the arm placement,swing plane,etc. 



Sunshine n Lollipops

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Re: Coaches, please comment
« Reply #7 on: August 11, 2011, 03:21:28 PM »
I am really glad you guys answered the OP the way you did.  Is it normal methodology to try to get coached over the internet?  Hell, no.  Go find a local pro, open your wallet, and pay to get some expert advice and coaching.  C'mon.  



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TheDude

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Re: Coaches, please comment
« Reply #8 on: August 11, 2011, 03:26:10 PM »
Post the video here and i;ll have a look and try to help.

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rcorbitt

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Re: Coaches, please comment
« Reply #9 on: August 11, 2011, 07:00:38 PM »
Thanks for all the replies. I agree you have to coach the player, not the style.
 
There was a comment about online coaching, and the need to get a local pro, and spend some money. If you visit the Kegel training center in Lake Wales, FL, you'll get the same USBC program, with a couple of Kegel's own methods. Basically, the coaching I received during a full day, was about how to bowl like Chris Barnes, not me.
 
We should all remember, the best bowlers in the world all need a coach. Unfortunately, I live in an area where good coaches don't exist in quantity. I drive almost 200 miles each way to get quality ball work. (Chuck Gardner, Rock Hill, SC. BTW - he coaches the Brunswick Pro Staff on Tour.)
 
To sum up, I guess my post on the other forum was to learn how to make a change, not to determine what change needed to be made. My post here was to vent, and validate my thoughts about the "certified" coaching available.
 
Thanks again to all who replied.
 
 



cgilyeat

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Re: Coaches, please comment
« Reply #10 on: August 11, 2011, 07:50:17 PM »
rcorbitt -  My experience at Kegel was entirely different from what you described.  I was there about 18 months ago and spent part of the day with Del Warren and the rest with Steve Neff.  Neither one of them made any attempt or suggestion to em that that I emulate any pro, current or past..  We spent the entire day working on those things that would improve my game without making any fundamental changes to it.  What we did there met my expectations, work with my existing physical game to improve it, not change it to look like someone else.
 
Edited by cgilyeat on 8/11/2011 at 7:49 PM

BowlingChat

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Re: Coaches, please comment
« Reply #11 on: August 11, 2011, 07:57:34 PM »
You received advice from the best in the business with top track records.

Please read the notes from the coaches, and understand what they're asking you to do.


http://forum.bowlingchat.net/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=3512


They're not asking you to be a particular person, but demonstrating something in particular they do well.

BTW, you should be posting these questions on the same site, posting cross site helps no one.







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Smash49

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Re: Coaches, please comment
« Reply #12 on: August 11, 2011, 07:59:02 PM »
I got thinking about this a little more.   And...  over the years coaches have always looked at the best in the world to determine what is the best way to bowl.  I know Rod and Stephen both and their training center is excellent.  They work hard to study the sport and have far more tools than ever before.  I also know Del and Joe at Kegel and their center is also fantastic.  Even back in the day people interested in bowling tried to figure out what makes someone great.  I have studied under Dick Ritger and his teachings are from his observations of bowlers on the tour during his time.  Much of his teaching still applies even to today's game.  Everyone tried to figure out Mark Roth and Marshall Holman.  Now they are figuring out Belmonte.....  I know research is on going everyday at the training center.  The lessons in time that we coaches learn hopefully are passed on correctly to the people needing help.  Examples would be the ball motion study that was completed.  Pete Weber was used as an example of  axis rotation.  I hope that people when told to look at the pros are told what to look for and why.  Each bowler is like a snowflake and has differences even if they are small.  My job is to know that, notice them and used their gifts to the best ability.
 
Smash49


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rcorbitt

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Re: Coaches, please comment
« Reply #13 on: August 12, 2011, 05:18:56 AM »
 
My reference to the other forum was non-specific. The "advice" I received was also non-specific. 
 
An important point I'd like all the coaches who responsed to take from this thread is coach the person, then the problem. Using my example, not a single coach offered a solution to my question.
 
The old cliche applies here: I asked for help telling time. The answers I received were pictures of clocks, and the time itself. 
 
Thanks again. FWIW, I will be back at Kegel for another full day this fall, and have sent an email to Ron Clifton.



dizzyfugu

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Re: Coaches, please comment
« Reply #14 on: August 12, 2011, 05:32:57 AM »

 



Coolerman wrote on 11.08.2011 1:55 PM:
The bottom line: most people who believe they know a lot about the bowling really don't. Most of their knowledge is really only incorrect information—a hodgepodge of conflicting theories.

Sad but true. And what works for one player personally must not (and IMHO will not) work for another one. While an "ideal" release might be the theoretical benchmark, I think that many players won't achieve it, be it lack of training, a different physis or just lack of talent.

 

Theoratical advise and online pics/vids will only help with diagnosis, but remedy is actually worked out "in real life" with the help of a coach. When I look back, the most valuable advice I received were from experienced and trustworthy players - only small things and suggestions, but incorporating them into my game helped a lot. I also read a lot of literature, but that only helped to the point that I could say "Yes, theory is right" AFTER I developed my game so far that it would live up to these theoretical standards (just like the "keep the hand behind the ball" basics).

 

Anyway, even if you consult a coach, make sure it is a certified/recognized person who actually develops YOUR game and does not force you to copy some other player's (or even the coach's own!) style - this is IMHO rather "unnatural" and not a help, it rather makes you dependent on this wannabe coach.


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