Post by: jkiser01 on December 17, 2003, 06:54:43 PM
Anyone have any comments on this??
jkiser01
Post by: Mike Austin on December 18, 2003, 10:06:53 AM
Cover stock is 70% of your ball reaction. Surface, surface, surface.... Afterall, it is what is touching the lane. Shiny/Dull, Particle/Resin/Urethane/Plastic etc.... Weight block does make a difference in the motion of the ball, but not to the extent of the shell. Most of us are not really good enough to take advantage of tweeks of different layouts with the same ball, if we were, we would be bowling for a living. We can make a noticeable difference between two of the same ball, scuff one and shine one, that is going to make a much bigger difference.
Hope this helps ya....
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Mike Austin
Mike Austin's Precision Pro Shop
Houston, TX
strikes4days@sbcglobal.net
Onward through the Storm!!!!
Check out my web site - www.BirdDogBowling.com
Post by: Pinbuster on December 18, 2003, 11:45:52 AM
Post by: Steven on December 18, 2003, 01:05:38 PM
Certainly, when initially purchasing a ball, you want to make sure that the right cover is being purchased for the condition being matched up to. For instance, if you want a dedicated spare ball for toast, you're probably going to shop for a ball with a plastic cover. At the other end of the spectrum, if you're looking for a flood ball, you are probably going to focus on particle coverstocks. It's relatively easy to fill in the blanks for conditions in between.
I view this as the initial 'easy' decision. It's relatively easy because there are usually a number of covers that overlap and will work for a given condition. That's where surface prep comes in. So once you pick a cover (or range of covers) appropriate for the intended condition, the 'hard' choice needs to be made, which is core.
Core continues to be the under estimated factor in overall reaction. Core determines the ball's base personality (or inherent hook shape), so the right decision here is crucial. For example, first assume that the right cover for the condition was purchased. However, if the ball has very a low RG core, you cannot 'tweak' your way to a skid/snap reaction, if that was your original intent. For specifics, I have an Ebonite Savage solid that wants to hook off my hand, and no amount of surface prep and/or polish will change the base characteristics (and I've tried
). Attempts to change the core generated hook shape end up killing overall reaction.Both factors are important, but my experience has been that if I pick the wrong core, it's hard to recover from the decision. However, if I was reasonably close in cover, I can usually get what I want through cover prep. In this sense, I believe core becomes the more critical decision.
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"You want the truth? -- You can't handle the truth! "
Post by: mumzie on December 18, 2003, 01:35:40 PM
You can certainly tweak a coverstock surface, but it's real hard to change the core.
Post by: Gravy on December 18, 2003, 01:40:42 PM
Post by: charlest on December 18, 2003, 01:44:17 PM
quote:
I agree with Steven, when purchasing a new ball you need to look at the core as the cover can be changed and enhance the reaction of the core.
Bull. The core will only allow the ball to do whatthe cover will allow. end of story.
quote:
But if you buy a ball that has a low rg you are not goign to turn it into a ball that will skid snap.
Bull2. Of course you can. Try the Inferno, then look at about 69 more balls ...
[quote}
But you can tweak it to go a little longer. In the end it is the core that produces the shape of the reaction as well as the timing with the cover being able to tweak these number a little bit.
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J.Hansen
Visionary Test Staff Member
[/quote]
You have the story reversed. Talk to ANY manufcaturer's technical rep.
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"Just because you can do something does not mean you should do it."
Post by: Steven on December 18, 2003, 02:05:13 PM
There is no comparison in reaction. The XXXL will provide a bowler with average hand some real movement on drier conditions, where the Spare Storm will go straight as an arrow. Now why is that?
Another angle is to take two identical balls, leave the same box cover, and drill them with distinctly different patterns. If you do this with thought, you can make the balls react like two completely different animals. In other words, you can generate variations in core reaction that could not be achieved drilling the same two balls identically and then playing around with cover prep. I've done this with several balls, most recently with two Ebonite Stingers.
As far as Ball manufacture technical reps, they don't always tell you the right answer -- just the convenient one. Telling customers to re-drill balls to get the reaction they want is not a pleasant story to tell. Since cover prep can sometimes be a 'quick fix' it's the easy story line. That's the cheapest and least costly path from point 'A' to 'B' (when it works).
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"You want the truth? -- You can't handle the truth! "
Post by: Pinbuster on December 18, 2003, 02:25:43 PM
As you first stated you have to find a cover for the condition you are trying to match up to, then you look at the core.
Since the coverstock is the first decision it must be the largest factor in ball reaction.
Post by: jkiser01 on December 18, 2003, 02:42:23 PM
thanks for all the comments. I'm glad I came up with a good question..
Keep the responses coming..
jkiser01
Post by: Steven on December 18, 2003, 02:50:53 PM
In a pure sense, the coverstock decision is most important. If you don't get it right, little else matters. However, my issue with the 'coverstock is king' argument is that it's very hard not to get it right.
Tell me you want the right cover for medium THS conditions (which most of us face), and you can literally walk into a proshop blind folded a pick a "correct" ball off the display. The reality is that you can take just about anything from a mild reactive to a low-load pearl particle, and with a little tweaking, make the cover work just fine. So where is the big decision?
I think the bigger question that should be focused on is not what's most important, but what's most critical. Again, except for the extremes, just about any cover will do fine. However, even if the cover matches up, I'm screwed if I selected the wrong core (or drill). Cover prep cannot fix problems made in this area. That's whats' always lost in these discussions.
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"You want the truth? -- You can't handle the truth! "
Post by: jkiser01 on December 18, 2003, 02:55:54 PM
jkiser01
Post by: T-GOD on December 18, 2003, 03:25:52 PM
Post by: T-GOD on December 18, 2003, 03:28:00 PM
Post by: louie on December 18, 2003, 03:36:53 PM
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Why does everyone laugh when I bowl?
louie
Post by: Steven on December 18, 2003, 04:57:50 PM
quote:
While both components (Shell, Core) work together to determine the ball path, the core can be thought of as having more affect on the rotation on the ball.
This is interesting because rotation feeds into hook shape, and hook shape is the major factor in breakpoint. We can talk about coverstocks all day, but when all is said and done, breakpoint is the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow for higher scoring.
Again, it comes down to whats' most critical to achieve higher scores.
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"You want the truth? -- You can't handle the truth! "
Post by: charlest on December 18, 2003, 06:10:21 PM
quote:
charlest: I'm surprised at your comments. If you want to present an apples-to-apples comparison, drill a Lane#1 plastic XXXL (real diamond core) and a plastic Spare Storm (pancake block).
There is no comparison in reaction. The XXXL will provide a bowler with average hand some real movement on drier conditions, where the Spare Storm will go straight as an arrow. Now why is that?
Steven,
Now this is a generalization, but that's what we're dealing with here:
The plastic ball (don't use the Spare Storm in your example unless that is the plastic that Lane#1 used; I doubt it, as it is a much harder and denser surface than Lane#1 plastic. I suspect a White Dot is a more appropriate comparison) will NOT go straight as an arrow on a condition that the XL will hook on. Because of the cover they are both usable onth e same condition; the XL will hook more, yes. But the surface (and the bowler's delivery, of course) determines on what oil pattern and amount they will hook on, be usable on. The core determines now that traction will be applied to the lane, QED, how much and where it will hook.
The metphor about the coverstock being equivalent the tires and the core being equivalent to the engine. The engine can apply as much power to the tires as it wants, but snow tires are usable on one surface and racing slicks are usable on another.
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"Just because you can do something does not mean you should do it."
Post by: charlest on December 18, 2003, 06:14:32 PM
quote:
Charlest,
I don't care what you do to a early roll ball you are not going to make it skid snap. It will still have an arc shape to the reaction and it will roll to early to be a skid/snap ball. Will it go longer, yes, will it snap at the backend no.
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J.Hansen
Visionary Test Staff Member
I can make an Inferno skid/flip (skid/snap) till doomsday on the medium-heavy oil pattern on Brunswick Anvillanes. The Inferno has one of the lowest RGs around right now.
The V2 Pearl had the low RG (2.45) of the V2 sanded. Didn't you ever see that ball skid/flip??
How about the Storm POWER CHARGE PEARL, with RG of 2.49; is that low enough to meet your criteria? Ever see that skid/flip?
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"Just because you can do something does not mean you should do it."
Post by: charlest on December 18, 2003, 06:21:38 PM
quote:
T-GOD: Thanks for posting the Columbia link. I had not seen that article before. The essence of that article is the following statement:
quote:
While both components (Shell, Core) work together to determine the ball path, the core can be thought of as having more affect on the rotation on the ball.
This is interesting because rotation feeds into hook shape, and hook shape is the major factor in breakpoint. We can talk about coverstocks all day, but when all is said and done, breakpoint is the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow for higher scoring.
Again, it comes down to whats' most critical to achieve higher scores.
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"You want the truth? -- You can't handle the truth! "
Steven,
I think you're still stretching the matter. WHile the wrong drilling will make using the ball with the right coverstock for the lane condition more to much more difficult, the wrong coverstock can mkae it so that no drilling will make the ball work.
While over the past 2 years or so, core dynamics have, I believe become more important for that all important adjustment, when we change balls, I still have to believe that 99% of the time, a basic drilling like the infamous label laeverage will work magic for 99% of all bowlers, once the right coverstaock is chosen. Based on this, for my personal point of view, I'd have to give no lower than 60% to the coverstock, while I lean towards 70%, after the lane and the bowler are removed from the equation.
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"Just because you can do something does not mean you should do it."
Post by: Steven on December 18, 2003, 06:39:24 PM
The bottom line is that all the above mentioned plastics move measurably less than my XXXL on dry conditions where such comparisons are appropriate. The only real difference is the core. I'm not reading this somewhere else or speculating based on hearsay -- these conclusions are from my own 'hands on' experience with these balls. The delivery was the same and the conditions were the same. If you choose not to believe me, that's a different issue.
Regardless, coverstock choice is really a "no-brainer" in most situations (a generalization, but mostly true). I can take 75% of the balls on the market and adjust the cover to match up to most conditions I would find. Generally, cover alternations might not be necessary at all. At my Sunday practice session, I usually bring the following:
1) Track Silencer (Particle, 800 grit)
2) Ebonite Stinger (Resin 1500 grit)
3) Storm Thunder Flash Pro (Strong Urethane, 1000 grit)
On the THS pattern that's usually found, I can throw all three balls with the same effectiveness while lining up just a few boards different. There is that much overlap in 'friction'. If one ball carries a little better than another, it's because of the respective hook shapes, breakpoints and resulting angle of entries. Ironically, these are functions of core and drill patterns.
With today's coverstocks, there is so much overlap on THS patterns that the concept of shell being 70% plus of reaction is far overblown. If this is true (which I firmly believe), why wouldn't you consider hook shape to be a more important factor when trying to achieve higher scores?
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"You want the truth? -- You can't handle the truth! "
Edited on 12/18/2003 10:12 PM
Post by: RandyO on December 18, 2003, 10:23:55 PM
Bowler = Engine
Cover = Tires
Core = Suspension
Now that makes more sense.
Post by: agroves on December 19, 2003, 03:31:32 AM
I am with Charlest on this one. If you talk to the majority of manufactures they will say that the cover affects approx 2/3 of OVERALL ball reaction. I tend to agree with this statement.
The core, rg values-differential and pin placement, determine the shape of the hook. Yes you can make a low rg ball skid/snap with the proper drilling.
You can take a ball with a less than desirable drilling and score well with it provided the cover matches the condition well. That is why many people drill their equipment the same way the rely on cover strength/weakness to match up to the condition. I think Walter Ray and Chris Barnes are known for drilling everything pretty close to the same.
striker985--what does your post provide to this discussion??
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FUFU
HIT 'EM WEAK AND WATCH 'EM FREAK
Post by: solid9 on December 19, 2003, 10:23:51 AM
I have always believed that.
core= shape
surface= distance
bowler= size
Post by: Ishmael on December 19, 2003, 10:30:05 AM
Post by: rkaycom on December 19, 2003, 10:37:41 AM
That pretty much it...
- 01kay
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Post by: charlest on December 19, 2003, 11:00:21 AM
quote:
charlest: I don't know what you mean by generalizations. I don't think it's productive to split hairs about the hardness of the various plastic shells. I put out my Spare Storm as an example because it's the first ball that came to mind. I also have a Brunswick Target Zone and a Columbia White Dot (which you mentioned), so if it makes you feel better, substitute those models into my comparison instead.
It doesn't so much make me feel better, as it seems to be a more appropriate comparison.
quote:
The bottom line is that all the above mentioned plastics move measurably less than my XXXL on dry conditions where such comparisons are appropriate. The only real difference is the core. I'm not reading this somewhere else or speculating based on hearsay -- these conclusions are from my own 'hands on' experience with these balls. The delivery was the same and the conditions were the same. If you choose not to believe me, that's a different issue.
That's fine; I had no problem with that. My contention is that the cover makes both balls appropriate to tthe same oil pattern. Someone with a lot of hand may actually find the XXXL to have too much backend on a dry condition and may have to use the White Dot. Also, as you move up to more and more oil, the telling factor will be that both the XXXL's and the White Dot's will look more and more alike, until there's enough oil for one bowler's "hand, that they will both hook the same. That's the point where the coverstock is no longer appropriate.
Of course the ideal situation would be where the coverstock's are idential and only the core is the difference.
quote:
Regardless, coverstock choice is really a "no-brainer" in most situations (a generalization, but mostly true). I can take 75% of the balls on the market and adjust the cover to match up to most conditions I would find. Generally, cover alternations might not be necessary at all. At my Sunday practice session, I usually bring the following:
1) Track Silencer (Particle, 800 grit)
2) Ebonite Stinger (Resin 1500 grit)
3) Storm Thunder Flash Pro (Strong Urethane, 1000 grit)
On the THS pattern that's usually found, I can throw all three balls with the same effectiveness while lining up just a few boards different. There is that much overlap in 'friction'. If one ball carries a little better than another, it's because of the respective hook shapes, breakpoints and resulting angle of entries. Ironically, these are functions of core and drill patterns.
I think you may be seeing the point where the Silencer, being significantly stronger cover than the Stinger, is burning itself up just enough to allow you to play the same area and stillhave enough backend to carry well. That is a wonderfull situation, that not many people are lucky enough (or knowledgable enough) to achieve.
quote:
With today's coverstocks, there is so much overlap
May I change that to "potential Overlap"?
quote:
on THS patterns that the concept of shell being 70% plus of reaction is far overblown. If this is true (which I firmly believe), why wouldn't you consider hook shape to be a more important factor when trying to achieve higher scores?
Hook shape can be important, can be the most important factor, once you have the right cover to handle the lane condition. I just got an ELement and with my normal release, it has an very even arc-like reaction, some would ever call it an old-fashioned curve - very much a control ball, until I changed my release to add more angle to the release's rotational axis. Now it has more of a late arc, with greater entry angle and thus, greater carry power. A slight shine may have done the trick, but I did not want to change the surface, because we have carrydown.
So, I believe hook shape is only important after the ball's cover allows it to handle the oil pattern.
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"Just because you can do something does not mean you should do it."
Post by: ksucat on December 19, 2003, 11:04:30 AM
This discussion immediately made me think about the thread on which part of the lane is most important. I still contend that if we throw out extreme conditions such as dry heads or flooded backends, then the midlane rules. If we throw out comparing plastic to particle, then the core can make a big difference in performance.
On the THS where striking is king, most good bowlers can easily pick a coverstock to work with because several will work well. However, the real trick is to get the correct core and layout to create the best entry angle to maximize carry percentage.
Post by: T-GOD on December 19, 2003, 11:15:03 AM
Post by: charlest on December 19, 2003, 11:33:26 AM
quote:
I think the point Steven is trying to make, is that every manufacturer has reactive resin covers now. They're all pretty good/close to each other. So now, the big difference is the core..!! =:^D
Most are pretty close. Even the PK 17 and PK 18 covers are closer than people think, with the type of reaction being more different than the amount of oil they can handle. The same goes for Columbia's Flexcell and SuperFlex.
Some companies do have coverstocks that are more different. I think 2 examples are Storm's Pro-Glide on the Barbed Wire and the Accu-Tread on the Hot Wire (with Curelyon in between).
The Dynothane Soaker coverstock on the ELement is also fairly different in its oil handling ability from the coverstock on the Barrage. (Yes, the cores are very different.)
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"Just because you can do something does not mean you should do it."
Post by: Steven on December 19, 2003, 11:41:59 AM
quote:
However, the real trick is to get the correct core and layout to create the best entry angle to maximize carry percentage.
ksucat's above statement is the essence of what I've been trying to convey. Of course the proper match of cover to surface has to happen before anything else, but that decision is so basic (and easy) when purchasing a ball, there is danger in thinking too much about it.
There is an old saying that has a twisted application here: "When everything is important, nothing is important". Given that most mid-range balls have the base friction characteristics (or cover alteration potential) to be useful on most conditions a bowler sees, it's too easy to get caught up in coverstocks.
I've learned this lesson the hard (i.e. expensive) way. I've been a ball junkie the past few years, having owned 40-50 different balls. And the 'arsenal' covers the full range -- plastics, mild urethanes, aggressive urethanes, mild resins, pearl resins, aggressive resins, pearl particles, low load particles, and high load particles. I've thrown league/tournaments with these balls on THS patterns, ABC sport shot patterns, and the 5 PBA patterns.
Again the lesson is that except for the extremes, most covers can be adjusted for most situations. Beyond this, the success factor is being able to create the optimal entry angle to maximize carry. This comes from knowing cores and drill patterns.
If anyone feels they can get the reaction they want (which is the ultimate goal) from shining/sanding and simply giving what's inside a second thought, we're not going to connect, and we'll have to agree to disagree.
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"You want the truth? -- You can't handle the truth! "