Post by: BrianCRX90 on November 27, 2005, 01:32:44 PM
Now AMF isn't off the hook solely. Brunswick is as much to blame. This freakin "Brunswick Zone" Taco Bell Blockbuster Walgreens Home Depot look alike crap is phoney and ridiculous. Look at these so called pit areas. They put in tables and stationary chairs with cheap kiddy furniture and call this a bowling alley.
So I go to practice at a Brunswick alley. One that is close to my house never has a lane open on the weekend it seems cause it's too busy with Birthday parties and glow bowl. We wouldn't want the serious league bowler to practice or anything. So I go 30 miles north to another Brunswick alley and when it's usually not busy it's packed this first time. I only get one lane but to make it worse I'm placed next to a birthday party. After just ignoring it I throw a few shots and this moron teenager asks me if I am a professional. I told him "If I was a professional do you think I'd be bowling next to the likes of you?". Then glow bowl comes on. After awhile I just went with it but after 6 games I went to throw a shot and even though I check my shoes every shot I didn't feel it coming but I stuck so bad I bashed my knee on the approach. I got so mad I kicked the ball return as hard as I could and I just left.. I'm sick of this BULLSH|T from these bowling alleys. Unfortunately the choices of independent bowling alleys in this country much less my area is getting slim. They are real bowling alleys most of them and don't appease to KIDS. I hate bratty kids, I hate birthday parties, I hate cheap a$s pit areas and I hate glow bowl. And if you don't like this post, then up yours!
Edited on 11/28/2005 4:33 PM
Edited on 11/28/2005 4:34 PM
Post by: TWOHAND834 on November 27, 2005, 09:55:03 PM
I totally agree with all you said. HOWEVER.....it isn't just the corporate centers doing this. The independents are starting to follow suit. I work at an independent in the Atlanta, GA area and they cater to kids as well. Every Saturday and Sunday afternoon, it is cosmic bowling from basically noon until about 4:00. Then a small break during dinner hours, only to start it again later on in the evening. What is worse, is my center makes excuse after excuse as to why they do not oil their lanes on a regular basis, so practice is worthless unless you want the ball to hook at your feet. They oil once a day and usually at 5:00 before leagues start. Well, since I work the pro shop inside this dump, It is not as though I can go early before I work to practice because oil has not seen the lanes in almost 24 hours. Competitive bowling as a whole only has a few good years left because the centers are running us out for their own financial gain.
--------------------
Steven Vance
Atlanta (Buford), GA
Pro Shop Operator
Advanced Bowling Solutions
If anyone out there is worried about the scores being too high, try duckpin!!
Post by: stormerjip on November 27, 2005, 09:56:24 PM
--------------------
show no mercy, kill the wounded, eat the dead
The bowlers solution pro shop
inside amf arc lanes evansville, ind
formerly known as stormerjip
Edited on 11/27/2005 10:53 PM
Post by: BrunsMike on November 27, 2005, 10:33:18 PM
If I was in your situation where the shot was dry and had kids near you. 1, id use the kids as a source of distration and tune them out. 2, id use the dry shot for spare shooting. 3, id interact with the kids more, never know whos the next future star of any sport or important person.
Just my take on this situation.
Post by: BrianCRX90 on November 27, 2005, 10:51:37 PM
Edited on 11/27/2005 11:43 PM
Edited on 11/27/2005 11:44 PM
Post by: BrianCRX90 on November 27, 2005, 10:58:15 PM
quote:
then y don't u just go and quit bowling cause a lot of these KIDS will potentially end up getting talked into leagues and then will be bowling beside u every week.
You live in a fantasy, a fairytale. The kids nowadays are not going to join leagues. This isn't the 90's. YABA membership is way down. All kids care about is bumper bowling and glow bowl. The next generation of talented kids will not be better then mine or previous, they will be much worse...the little of these kids that will actully join YABA or an adult USBC league someday. Sanctioned future bowling is dead!
Post by: Steven on November 27, 2005, 11:11:18 PM
quote:
And if you don't like this post, then up yours!
I don't like your post, and I like your attitude even less. After you "kicked the ball return as hard as you could", you could have been banned from that house forever -- think about that the next time you consider going postal on a defenseless piece of equipment.
Now get your act together and consider the following. Houses need the big bucks open play on Friday/Saturday, so deal with it. In every area, there are quality leagues sometime during the Monday-Thursday night timeframe, so focus your energy there. As far as practice, there are almost always lanes to be found on Sundays.
Whatever you pursue, I hope it includes some form of anger management -- you really need it.
--------------------
"Yeah...what Jabroini said"
Post by: Walking E on November 27, 2005, 11:22:05 PM
quote:
I had this happen today. I practiced in a house that I'll be subbing for in a scratch league this coming Wednesday.
I show up at 11:45 (right after bowling on TV) and caught their $1 game special. Well, 15 minutes into bowling, out go the lights on come the disco music and about 10,000 kids suddenly appear out of nowhere. To make matters worse, the desk b!tch put them all by me. Plus. there's no oil out on the lanes and their f'd up as well.
I paid for 4 games, bowled two and then walked out. On the way past the desk (i was going to complain) the desk b!tch looked at me and said "no refunds". I gave her the one gun salute and walked out.
--------------------
Keep looking... I'm sure there's a 300 in one of those balls you keep buying!!
Inverted 1,
Were you at Rossmoor?
--------------------
Official Member of the BrunsTrackColumStormHammEboRotoBuzzAMF Nation!
Edited on 11/28/2005 0:12 AM
Post by: stormerjip on November 27, 2005, 11:22:13 PM
--------------------
show no mercy, kill the wounded, eat the dead
The bowlers solution pro shop
inside amf arc lanes evansville, ind
formerly known as stormerjip
Post by: doubleraven on November 28, 2005, 03:05:30 AM
You mentioned that you could only get one lane? I see alot of bowlers who inisit that they by themselves need a pair, because God forbid that you only bowl on one. Whether you like it or not, a single open bowler is not the way to maximize profit , not when you can get a family of 5 on one of those lanes. And there are big bucks in birthdays. I am a "desk b****" as you put it, so I ring up the parties and they are almost all over $100, some can be several hundred. Saturdays, I work from around 4:15P-2A, and in those 10 hours, I do around $4000 of business. There are no leagues this night, just open and cosmic bowling.
Now, before you go and call me and my center coroporate sellouts, let me tell you this. All but one, myself included, of the desk personel are regular, competitive league bowlers. Our manager is a 230 average scratch (yes, they still exist) bowler, and our program director is usually compteting in around 3 leagues at a time. Our monday night challenge league, has a $20k+ prize fund. Mondays, as well as Thursdays and Fridays at 7:00, we do not have open bowling lanes, with the exception of maybe one pair, because all 40 lanes are running league. I personally bowl in two leagues, with a mid 180s average(I've been bowling seriously only a year), so don't go thinking I'm some two-finger recreation hack.
Brunswick, whether you like it or not, is very good to its league bowlers. We dish out free bowling like candy. Shoot x pins above average, or x score (based on average), and you get award coupons. Bowl in two or more fall leagues, or one summer one, and you get a gold card, good for 3 free games a day. The league rewards program allows you to get various discounts, based on the month. Any open play bowling, is a dollar off per game, during on weekdays during the daytime and on Sundays, its $.99/game after your free games.
I've heard many people say that the reason they bowl at our center, isn't because we have the latest or greatest, which we don't (center is more than 20 years old, so it has an old fashoned pit and AS/80 scoring, and old Anvilane), but rather, they bowl there because we are the most bowler friendly center.
You don't like the way we do things? Try running your center based only on league bowling and open bowling that caters only to league/tourny bowlers practicing. You'd be out of business in a month!
Post by: cgilyeat on November 28, 2005, 05:10:44 AM
quote:
I hate these corporate bowling alleys tailoring for kids. IIt's obvious that these chain bowling alleys only want to tailor to kids and not leagues anymore. This is the reason at an AMF house my Friday night league got terminated, or as I say "kicked out" so they could make time for glow bowl. The league was small and the only one but I've never heard of an alley kicking out a league to please open play bowlers. At this alley I checked up on their revenue so to speak on a Friday I had off league bowling at another alley and I didn't see that many people in it. Maybe when you charge over 4.00 a game that may be why.
Now AMF isn't off the hook soley. Brunswick is as much to blame. This freakin "Brunswick Zone" Taco Bell Blockbuster Walgreens Home Depot look alike crap is phoney and ridiculous. Look at these so called pit areas. They put in tables and stationary chairs with cheap kiddy furniture and call this a bowling alley.
So I go to practice at a Brunswick alley. One that is close to my house never has a lane open on the weekend it seems cause it's too busy with Birthday parties and glow bowl. We wouldn't want the serious league bowler to practice or anything. So I go 30 miles north to another Brunswick alley and when it's usually not busy it's packed this first time. I only get one lane but to make it worse I'm placed next to a birthday party. After just ignoring it I throw a few shots and this moron teenager asks me if I am a professional. I told him "If I was a professional do you think I'd be bowling next to the likes of you?". Then glow bowl comes on. After awhile I just went with it but after 6 games I went to throw a shot and even though I check my shoes every shot I didn't feel it coming but I stuck so bad I bashed my knee on the approach. I got so mad I kicked the ball return as hard as I could and I just left.. I'm sick of this BULLSH|T from these bowling alleys. Unfortunatly the choices of independant bowling alleys in this country much less my area is getting slim. They are real bowling alleys most of them and don't appease to KIDS. I hate bratty kids, I hate birthday parties, I hate cheap a$s pit areas and I hate glow bowl. And if you don't like this post, then up yours!
Sounds like somebody needs to gow up a little.
Yes, some of the corporate houses do place a lot of emphasis on open play, etc. but not all. I bowl in a 32 lane AMF center that is very focused on leagues. I sure part of the reason is because center manager is a former PBA member and understands bowling. If you want to practice in this center on week days, you need to come in before 5:00pm or after 9:00pm because most evenings, both shifts are full with leages. Tues there are no open play lanes after 5:00pm and on Fridays there is no open play until "Glow Bowling" at Midnight. Mon, Wed and Thurs, there are a few lanes available at 9:00, but nothing between 5 and 9pm. For the most part, Saturdays, after 11am, when the youth leagues get done (they take all 32 lanes) there is nothing but open play and birthday parties until 4:30 when the lanes are oiled for the 5:00 leagues, which take 28 of the 32 lanes. Sundays, mostly open play and birthday parties (after noon )until 5:00 when there are leagues.
So grow up and don't blmme it all on the parent corp. A good center manager can go a long ways in making sure that leagues are supported.
Edited on 11/28/2005 6:10 AM
Post by: star on November 28, 2005, 06:23:51 AM
Great mental game workout. I love kids coming up to me when Im practicing. They love to see how to bowl correctly and they dont pester you so much if you have a laugh with them.
Glo bowling super practice for getting your approach correct and when you shoot 200+ you know its a good game. The amount of times Ive seen people down at the lanes shooting solely for scores in so called practice time is unbelievable. Ive been asked so many times how come you shoot 150's to 170's then all of a sudden the last 3 games are all well over 200 ? Use practice time wisely and dont get so hung up on having the perfect quiet, 2 lanes to yourself where no one bothers you. Doesnt happen every time in league so why expect it in practice?
As for dry lanes, use a plastic ball and see how good you can really throw a ball. Thats great practice something youd never get on a THS.
I do undestand what Brian means, but there are always positive ways to look at what you have. Just think you could be at work slogging your guts out. English slang I know but you get my point.
--------------------
Happy go lucky bowler from the UK
.Did someone say tough luck
Want to learn to read lanes then visit:-
www.thebowlingprofessor44.com/
Post by: michelle on November 28, 2005, 07:51:46 AM
In the instance of league not being renewed in favor of glow bowl, there is more money in the glow bowl unless your league had been filling the house from lane 1 to lane last and spending quite a bit at the bar.
The reality is that league is not presently their bread and butter. Obviously, that tide is expected to turn at some point, but I have lost track of how long it has been since leagues filled the houses for two shifts (and sometimes three) per night.
Packed with birthday parties and glow bowl sounds like a house that doesn't need the league bowler coming in to suck up two lanes for practice in order to turn a profit.
As to the Dallas area, I thought I read somewhere that Chuck (Lande) was going to open a center that put some focus back on the serious bowler. Did those plans never come to fruition? If they didn't come to pass, then your options are to deal with the available options, quit bowling or arrange the financing to open what you perceive to be a financially viable facility (if you can find a lender that will stop laughing long enough to listen to "serious bowler" and "financially viable" in the same sentence).
Post by: sdbowler on November 28, 2005, 08:20:01 AM
If you don't like having one lane during practice and kids next to you then find out when they don't have birthday parties going on. We always told our league bowlers that on Saturday and Sunday between noon and 5 pm that is open play time if you want to come and practice all welcome but to only expect one lane and to be next to kids so they new ahead of time.
As far as centers catering to open play no matter what it is yeah more and more are doing it. Many are trying to do a 50/50 attitude towards everything. I always wanted to take care of my league bowlers but at the sametime take care of my open bowlers as well. You even said it yourself that league #'s are down. So with that in mind tell me how a center would recover that money they have lost due to leagues being down. The only way would be to have more birthday parties or large groups in or to do something like "glow bowl".
If you are someone who takes the sport serious then you need to help the sport and talk to the kids when they come up to you. Also you need to set the example kicking the ball return is not the way. If you would have done that in my center you would have been gone. That is one thing I did not take from anyone. So next time you start to whine about this put yourself into the owners shoes and figure out how to pay the bills. Or look at it as if 1/4 of your paycheck is gone and you still have to pay all your bills. That is what is going on with centers now days.
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Brunswick
Post by: BrianCRX90 on November 28, 2005, 11:09:10 AM
quote:
You mentioned that you could only get one lane? I see alot of bowlers who inisit that they by themselves need a pair, because God forbid that you only bowl on one.
uhhh...
It's not the end of the world to have only 1 lane but last I checked we still by USBC rules have to bowl on a pair in santioned league. This is what practice is about, learning to bowl on a pair to prepare for league and tornaments.
Post by: BrianCRX90 on November 28, 2005, 11:11:01 AM
quote:
Businesses are in business for the business of making money. Remember that the AMF philosphy for quite some time has been to get roughly the same amount of money as the family of four would spend if they were to go to a movie theatre instead of the bowling center.
AMF is doing great. They are doing so great they filed for Chapter 13 and got kicked off the stock exchange. They have glow bowl also.
Post by: scotts33 on November 28, 2005, 11:18:22 AM
quote:
It's not the end of the world to have only 1 lane but last I checked we still by USBC rules have to bowl on a pair in santioned league. This is what practice is about, learning to bowl on a pair to prepare for league and tornaments.
Brian--Are you ready to pay for two lanes use...especially when a house is busy? Like most have said many houses are closing because they can't make the bottom line. A house needs to do what they need to do to make $ and stay open.
Look at it as an opportunity to work on distractions.
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Scott
Post by: Pinbuster on November 28, 2005, 11:26:53 AM
That way I know it is my execution and not any difference in the lanes. Plus the lane will transition faster (twice as fast
). And while it is normal accepted practice the USBC sanctioned games are on a pair of lanes I don’t believe there is a rule to that effect. A game can be bowled on a lane, a pair of lanes, or even move than 2 lanes as long a pre determined order is followed.
Post by: scotts33 on November 28, 2005, 11:41:50 AM
quote:
They are only there to socialize, not bowl.
So, are the majority of handcp. league bowlers.
--------------------
Scott
Post by: cgilyeat on November 28, 2005, 11:43:59 AM
quote:quote:
You mentioned that you could only get one lane? I see alot of bowlers who inisit that they by themselves need a pair, because God forbid that you only bowl on one.
uhhh...
It's not the end of the world to have only 1 lane but last I checked we still by USBC rules have to bowl on a pair in santioned league. This is what practice is about, learning to bowl on a pair to prepare for league and tornaments.
Practice is to work on a weakness in your game, NOT to worry about the score, and not to simulate league play. True practice does not require 2 lanes, just because leagues use two, does not mean you need to for practice. I rarely ask for two lanes, even though the house will always ask if I want a pair (if there is a pair open). And, most times, I don't even turn the scorers on when I'm practicing. I don't want the score to distract me from what I am working on.
Edited on 11/28/2005 12:35 PM
Post by: nd300 on November 28, 2005, 11:44:53 AM
Second,the alley I bowl in is trying to find ways to get open play in. Trying to make it on league money alone is difficult as any center owner can tell you.
I also don't mind the distraction from glow bowling,because if you can score on lanes in that condition you should be able to sdcore really well on lanes that DO have a shot to work with.
Besides,who said that you have to score in practice??? Take your spare ball and work on accuracy. Try and hit 12 ten pins in a row.Play a game of low ball,where getting one pin is the best you can do on the first ball,and two or even another single pin is the best you can do on the second. A perfect score is 20 if I remember right.
Another trick I was told recently is that when the lanes are shot like that for glow bowl,take your plastic adn get used to shooting the 3 board as your primary line,so that if that happens in league,you ahve a backup plan if you low flare ball is hooking too hard.
It's almost guaranteed that no one else would even try that line and you can play that line alone with no one to mess it up.
As they say,when handed lemons,make lemonade.
--------------------
Chris
Lane#1--nothing else hits like 'em.
Post by: htotheizzo3561 on November 28, 2005, 11:57:39 AM
quote:quote:
Businesses are in business for the business of making money. Remember that the AMF philosphy for quite some time has been to get roughly the same amount of money as the family of four would spend if they were to go to a movie theatre instead of the bowling center.
AMF is doing great. They are doing so great they filed for Chapter 13 and got kicked off the stock exchange. They have glow bowl also.
A little off topic, but AMF is failing by trying to squeeze every dollar out of its customers and league bowlers without trying to upgrade. When Brunswick Zones first started popping up they would either build one new or buy out one, then they would gut the entire center, making it modern. AMF is currently nickle and diming their way back unsucessfully, their snack bars are a joke its a snack bar, not a resturant.
Anyway, my local amf is a dump they don't cater to league bowlers, heck they could care less if they didn't have any. This past year they lost 200+ league bowlers the reason being, no benefits from the house! Sure coporate gives out a league bower card with discounts at other stores, but not at amf 2 bucks a game for league members and 15% off the snack bar that raises its prices 10% every year with quality going down. Plus it pisses me off that I got to pay 2 bucks a game practice while spening around $500 there annually during my league when senior leagues pay 6 bucks a week for 4 games during prime time and spend nothing and demand free coffee. Not to mention that the shot is always screwed up, they oil at night and have kids and high schoolers on them all day. As said in this topic Brunswick give away free coupons and benefits to league bowers this is a lot better then AMF.
Bowling has changed, in the corporate view, lets face it kids make the most money for centers from bowling in youth leagues to birthday parties to cosmic bowling to buying from the snack bar. Corporate centers have sold out by catering to them, not league bowlers who are at the center for 30+ weeks out of the year. Many private houses cater to both, offer cosmic weekend nights and cheaper practice weekday nights. Maybe my opinion has been changed by the poor managment at my local amf but bowling at a private center is usualy better in my opinion.
Post by: BigB20 on November 28, 2005, 12:05:24 PM
Post by: BrianCRX90 on November 28, 2005, 02:06:12 PM
quote:
I had this happen today. I practiced in a house that I'll be subbing for in a scratch league this coming Wednesday.
I show up at 11:45 (right after bowling on TV
I paid for 4 games, bowled two and then walked out. On the way past the desk (i was going to complain) the desk b!tch looked at me and said "no refunds". I gave her the one gun salute and walked out.
Your the man! We need more people like you. True competive bowlers don't put up with Disneyland nonsense. Amen brother!
--------------------
Keep looking... I'm sure there's a 300 in one of those balls you keep buying!!
Post by: supernoodle on November 28, 2005, 02:40:58 PM
In the UK it is worse,there are very few independant bowls and even some of those are either closing,being taken over or becoming more corperate.You should count your blessings that You pay less than almost anywhere else to bowl.In the UK prices are around $4.50+ a game.League bowlers get NO benefits what-so-ever and if there is any times when bowling is cheaper it is always at a ridiculous time.For example there are only two times at my bowl (apprx $1.60 per game) both on the weekends,starting at 8am (I have to leave my house before 6am to get there on time).Also condotions in virtualy all centers fall into 3 categories 1) Patchy 2) Bone dry (Due to no oiling at all) or 3) Dressed once a day and you have to hope that you get on a lane(s) that have not been bowled on by kids,plus when the school holidays come the lanes are flooded once a day.
At least you lot in the US for the most part have quite a lot of different alleys to choose from,If I want to go to another I either have to travel longer than the 2 hours I do already,go to a centre tailored entirely for kids or give up.
Hell if you lot want good conditions etc,you can at least bowl in "High" level touneys where you are guaranteed good conditions,over here even that does not guarantee good conditions.
What I'm trying to say is yes while I hate the loud music,the drunken idiots,the managers with dollar signs in thier eyes and the degredation of our sport,I can only seeing it getting worse.However its not all bad,you lot over the pond pay less,have better pro-shops,cheaper equipment,better food and a "Pro" tour,is on terrestial tv and is seen as a sport.These are things that bowlers in the UK would love to have.
So chill out,enjoy what you do have and next time a kid asks you if your a pro,say yes and enjoy the attention!!!!
Post by: BrianCRX90 on November 28, 2005, 03:48:24 PM
Speaking of the dips that work for Brunswick, does anyone at the top management and board members and presidents know anything about bowling? Who came up with this Zone crap?
Post by: shelley on November 28, 2005, 04:08:01 PM
quote:
I hate kids that are just there to socialize. This is serious buisiness, not a circus.
We're all real sorry that your unrealistic expectation of bowling and bowling centers is causing you so much grief. I'd be willing to bet that 90% of the users here bowl in at least one "social" league, where the majority of the league members are social, handicap bowlers. And of the 10% that aren't members of such a league, I'd be willing to bet that they started off in such a league.
We're all real sorry that other people's enjoyment gets in the way of your chosen profession (you are a professional bowler who makes his living at the sport, correct?). It's a shame that your bowling center allows non-competitive, recreational, non-PBA-card-carrying customers to bowl. Perhaps you could work out a deal with the owner to come in one night when no one else is there so that you may have the absolute silence and concentration that is required for your 300 average.
Do you expect the serious people you bowl with to maintain absolute silence during bowling? I can only imagine the frustration you feel when someone else makes noise because their ball hit the pins. And talk about the incessant whine of the ball return. It's amazing you can even pick up a bowling ball with that noise.
Or is it different for them because they're league members? They can drink or chat or socialize during league and it's ok because they're members, but if that sort of behavior is displayed by open bowlers, it's unacceptable.
SH
Post by: Rileybowler on November 28, 2005, 04:18:40 PM
--------------------
Carl
Post by: sdbowler on November 28, 2005, 04:19:44 PM
--------------------
Brunswick
Post by: BrianCRX90 on November 28, 2005, 05:57:18 PM
quote:quote:quote:
Businesses are in business for the business of making money. Remember that the AMF philosphy for quite some time has been to get roughly the same amount of money as the family of four would spend if they were to go to a movie theatre instead of the bowling center.
AMF is doing great. They are doing so great they filed for Chapter 13 and got kicked off the stock exchange. They have glow bowl also.
This past year they lost 200+ league bowlers the reason being, no benefits from the house! Sure coporate gives out a league bower card with discounts at other stores, but not at amf 2 bucks a game for league members and 15% off the snack bar that raises its prices 10% every year with quality going down. Plus it pisses me off that I got to pay 2 bucks a game practice while spening around $500 there annually during my league when senior leagues pay 6 bucks a week for 4 games during prime time and spend nothing and demand free coffee. Not to mention that the shot is always screwed up, they oil at night and have kids and high schoolers on them all day. As said in this topic Brunswick give away free coupons and benefits to league bowers this is a lot better then AMF.
Yes my friend, welcome to the AMF world. Some of the poorest management in buisiness history, makes Enron look like a stable company. I'll give hats off to Brunswick one issue, at least they give out free games for acheivements in leagues and if you miss a week you get free games. And you can use as many as them at a time as you want, no questions asked. Thier prices in most of the Brunwsick centers have gone up very little compared to AMF. Brunwick's problem though lies in the continuing raising of lineage. AMF's problem....where do you start. There is one AMF center that is 4.50 a game or 16 an hour on weekends. Course I remembered there was no "weekend" rate or "night rate" or any of that garbage but to charge someone that high is ridiculous. For the short time I was a member they would charge me 2.50 for league rate. 2.50?? It was 2.50 8 years ago for NON league members! Despite the direction Brunswick has gone it's working cause they are racking in money. AMF decides insted of concentrating on bowling they want to take the Brunswick route. But AMF is stupid. AMF could have been the elite house tailored to the league competitve bowler but they are miserably failing at trying to rip off Brunswick's ideas, and every idea that AMF has come up with is a direct rip off from Brunswick. A manager asked me on this AMF league for a survey and I told her off. You don't kick out league bowlers, you don't charge 4.50 cents, you don't have 15 hours of glow bowl and birthday parties and you don't screw with loyal members.
Post by: BrianCRX90 on November 28, 2005, 05:59:10 PM
quote:
Sounds like someone needs to grow up a little here. If you are so mad about everything then just give up the sport.--------------------
Brunswick
Wow are you dumb and ignorant. I'm not giving up anything anytime. I'm fighting the system that your liberal arss kisses too.
Post by: Speedburner89 on November 28, 2005, 08:33:17 PM
--------------------
TJ for Prez
Post by: sdbowler on November 29, 2005, 08:49:41 AM
quote:quote:
Sounds like someone needs to grow up a little here. If you are so mad about everything then just give up the sport.--------------------
Brunswick
Wow are you dumb and ignorant. I'm not giving up anything anytime. I'm fighting the system that your liberal arss kisses too.
I don't kiss arss to anyone. All I am saying is that many centers need to make money anyway possible due to league #'s going down. What are some easy ways to make money oh yeah birthday parties and "glow bowl". When are the best times for these to take place on the weekends. So that would mean Friday night, Saturday during the day and then late night and then again Sunday dring the day. If you are as good of a bowler and as serious as you say you are then you should already know that so you should expect the lanes to be busy during that time. IF don't like this going on then go to the bank and see if they will help you open a center and then just run leagues and no birthday parties or "glow bowl" we will see how short your center would stay open. Until you realize that the birthday parties and "glow bowl" are here to stay you will continue to have these problems of getting mad. And as far as no kids would join leagues after being involved in a birthday party or "glow bowl" is out of line I have seen many kids and even adults join leagues after they bowl in one of those. So yes it can open doors for people to join leagues. Oh yeah and also you would be the type that I would put on a lane where I knew that I would be putting open play really fast just to get under your skin.
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Brunswick
Post by: Phillip Marlowe on November 29, 2005, 09:45:49 AM
quote:
Sounds like someone needs to grow up a little here. If you are so mad about everything then just give up the sport. It sounds like nothing is making you happy with what your local centers are doing so just either give it up or get the money to build your own center and run it the way you think it should be ran.
--------------------
Brunswick
This is the best entry in the bunch. It is the attitude I got from two center owners. Those centers are now both very much in danger of going under. Why?
Well, the "open play" explosion has crested throughout most of the country. Bowling was "cool" for a while and "cosmic" or "Lightning" bowling brought in new, casual customers. But if you ask most people who have been watching open play lineage and gross unit sales of concessions (not purely revenues) the peak has come and gone. New centers are going up, but they are now cutting into a smaller pie. Bowling became a fad, but the fad is fading. For example, one house I go to had several full house cosmic "leagues" (really just come in and bowl for nightly prizes). Now, it still has good cosmic bowling on Friday and Saturday night, but the other times have dropped by half. In that house, and in two others, open play, outside of the weekends, has dropped dramatically. Even on the weekends, many houses that had once no lanes available now find their traffic down. Those trends, according to managers and owners (independents) I speak to -- who have been in the business a long time -- are likely to continue. Some houses, near popular malls and high traffic areas will still be successful with a focus on open play. Others will not.
Now to some Business 101. In the real world, local entertainment businesses (and bowling alleys are that) live and die with repeat customers. Casual customers provide the profit margin, but repeat customers provide the base for a successful business. (Unless one is a speciality business, that draws people for events at high prices.) The boom in open play has caused many owners and managers to forget their basic business model of league play as base, open play as profit. I predict (portentious music) a rash of closings throughout the country as proprietors and owners find that the lanes are beginning to lose money or that the land under the lanes is more valuable than the lanes themselves. The reason is that when you kill your repeat revenue base, your profits become variable. Since bowling is not a high margin business in the first place, a reduction in open play may well make it, for many of these places, a net loser over any two- to-four year period.
Frankly, if senior management in the corporate groups understood the above, rather than being concerned with the profit lines on each quarter, they wouldn't behave the way the do. They would treat most centers as small businesses that can be efficiently managed by a corporate model and benefit from cooperative advertising and promotion that a larger overarching structure can provide. The essence of the business would be rebuilding leagues and repeat customers as a base, providing them with reasonable shots, opportunities to practice or have fun with their families and then attracting open play when it is most profitable -- Friday evening through Sunday afternoon.
So sayeth the sage from the South.
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"Some guys get the world. Other guys get ex-hookers and a trip to Arizona."
Edited on 12/2/2005 10:24 AM
Post by: sdbowler on November 29, 2005, 11:18:43 AM
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Brunswick
Post by: sheppy335 on November 29, 2005, 11:50:52 AM
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Oil is served Best with fingers!
Why does the 8 Pin laugh at me!
Sheppy
Post by: BrianCRX90 on November 29, 2005, 12:37:48 PM
In other words in English, NO BOWLING ALLEY has the right to refuse anyone forming a league ANYTIME. So if you want to form a league during Friday or Saturday night the league has a full right of forming such a league and has FULL RIGHT to make sure the league is under USBC specifications and that would INCLUDE the banning of GLOW BOWL during league times.
If a house is breaking this contract, the fine starts at $1,000 dollars and goes up from there.
This should be a new USBC rule, along with a new USBC rules on oiling the lanes…which is a whole other topic.
Edited on 11/29/2005 1:29 PM
Post by: Ragnar on November 29, 2005, 12:40:10 PM
quote:quote:
You mentioned that you could only get one lane? I see alot of bowlers who inisit that they by themselves need a pair, because God forbid that you only bowl on one.
uhhh...
It's not the end of the world to have only 1 lane but last I checked we still by USBC rules have to bowl on a pair in santioned league. This is what practice is about, learning to bowl on a pair to prepare for league and tornaments.
There is no way that one person, on a pair of lanes, practicing, will have the same experience he will have bowling league or tournaments - none, zip, nada. One person bowls at a much faster pace and won't break the lanes down. You cannot duplicate the experience on a pair. Bowling on one lane only comes closer to reality - slower pace, more breakdown.
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"How can you govern a country which has 246 varieties of cheese?" - Charles De Gaulle
"Government is the Entertainment Division of the military-industrial complex." - Frank Zappa
Post by: cgilyeat on November 29, 2005, 01:30:53 PM
quote:
Ok another rant I just though about from that above post that ticks me off. I think every bowling center in this country that DOES currently hold at least 1 league that is sanctioned by USBC must sign a binding contract. This contract would state that a Bowling alley has no right to deny USBC or future USBC members from forming a league. No bowling alley that signs this contract can prevent a league from creating or continuing a sanctioned USBC league from the bowling alleys discretion from the business times of opening and operations and closing unless there is unlawful or uncivil proof without unreasonable doubt towards a certain individual
In other words in English, NO BOWLING ALLEY has the right to refuse anyone forming a league ANYTIME. So if you want to form a league during Friday or Saturday night the league has a full right of forming such a league and has FULL RIGHT to make sure the league is under USBC specifications and that would INCLUDE the banning of GLOW BOWL during league times.
If a house is breaking this contract, the fine starts at $1,000 dollars and goes up from there.
This should be a new USBC rule, along with a new USBC rules on oiling the lanes…which is a whole other topic.
Edited on 11/29/2005 1:29 PM
It appears that you have lost grasp of all reality
if you even think that this is even in the realm of possibility.
Post by: Phillip Marlowe on November 29, 2005, 01:46:32 PM
quote:
Every center is doing what they think they have to do to stay open and pay the bills. If you think it is that simple to run a center then open one up for yourself. Just like any business there are a lot of things going on behind the scene that you don't know about.
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Brunswick
Actually, I worked at and helped manage a bowling center some years ago, have consulted with managers regarding some of their problems (business and legal), have managed groups and business and have been involved in business and financial law and litigation for ... a long time.
Let's see, I also have spend time reading the several bowling management magazines, considered purchasing an interest in a center or agreeing to manage one, and have more experience in business than most folks. I also understand the corporate and accounting mentality from representing corporations and accountants and accounting firms.
Now, to your substance. Leagues are down. That is true nationally. But why? Some of it is cyclical, some of it cultural, but a great deal of it is because of the accounting-unit profit mentality. Let me explain. Accountants (who largely run many of the corporate bowling center companies) don't look at a business in a gross revenue/gross profit way. They see that, per unit, the open bowler provides more revenue for a center on average per visit or per game. Why? Because league bowlers get a break from actual lineage rates and tend to be more focused on bowling and less focused on drinking and eating. Viola, try to attract more open bowling. For a time, that worked. But the unit costprofit numbers don't tell the story. Yes, one has a number of repeat open bowling customers. But they generally do not "repeat" from year to year and form long term loyalty to a alley. Nor is that revenue consistent and essentially guaranteed. There are some who provide significant total revenue, but they are few and far between -- from my observation over the past 5 years -- while the league bowler will generally provide more total revenue. There are people who come in once a month, or occasionally and bowl, but they generally do not stay with the game long term -- nor are they solicited to join a league in most places (how do I know, I asked, and many would LIKE to try a league).
My point was that many center operators and most corporate owners don't understand the underlying nature of the market they are operating in and don't get the cyclical nature of open play. Yes, leagues go down, but the experience of people who try to build them is that you can, in fact, build leagues, but it takes effort. From my conversations with corporate folks and local managers, they do not want to make the effort because those efforts take away from immediate cost management and personnel management and do not pay off quickly with increased revenue, though it would pay off over the long run. This focus is what I mean by unit profit focus.
Oh, since I am probably the only person on this string who deals with the effect of the need to show a quarterly result rather than long term planning as a result of the pressure caused to corporate owners by the finance market, you might not want to accuse me of not knowing what I am talking about. Further, managers and owners are going to find, if they have underlying operating lines of credit (as many do), that their cost of credit will go up when open play and the revenue derived from it begins to decline -- especially if they haven't predicted that in their business plans. One of the issues in the credit market is the ability to predict your business -- and bowling management has been horrible at building and predicting the course of their business. In essence, if you can replace the total revenue from leagues with open bowling, you can do fine. If not, well, you are in trouble, and over the long run, the proprietors who have bet on the casual entertainment dollar as their ticket are probably in trouble.
What do you have to do to run a bowling business:
1. Financial management. You have to be able to understand the financial structure, pay attention to the cash flow and credit needs of the business. This requires an understanding of the basic local accounting issues and the issues regarding free cash flow, discounts for credit and payment options and actual revenues, costs, depreciation and reserves for unexpected contingencies and purchases. Further, one has to understand these issues and be able to present plans and budgets that meet the needs of owners and or credit providers. This part of the planning may lead to skimping on maintenance and personnel in the need to show short term profit or revenue/cost ratio gains.
2. Personnel management. One has to find, hire and supervise people who operate in diverse positions -- cashiers, chasers, maintenance, lane/machine maintenance maintenance for just couple of examples -- and insure that sufficient personnel are available to meet anticipated demand. Further, because bowling centers tend not to pay well, (in fact, the pay sucks, which is why I stopped considering it) you have to find a way to motivate people who are, essentially, underpaid. Further, the best managers understand enough about each of the jobs or functions to essentially check on the job the people they hire are doing, and are observant and care enough to ensure that the visible issues are addressed by their people.
3. Facilities management. The physical plant has to be taken care of and cleaned. You need to decide how to use the space, what the revenue possibilities for each space are and try to maximize the revenue per square foot of non-bowling space. Further, one has to anticipate when the physical plant needs work and budget and plan for necessary physical upgrades.
4. Promotion. You have to analyze your market, location and customers. You need to be out there, dealing with customers to get a sense of what they want, what their gripes are and to try to make them feel at home. There has to be targeted marketing of the facilities for parties of one type or another and the potential for specialty group uses or leagues. This involves contact with groups, use of media, budgeting for marketing and advertising.
These are only part of the job...oh, but I don't understand what I am talking about.
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"Some guys get the world. Other guys get ex-hookers and a trip to Arizona."
Edited on 11/29/2005 3:30 PM
Edited on 11/30/2005 12:01 PM
Post by: BrianCRX90 on November 29, 2005, 06:06:02 PM
quote:
Also, as for your proposed USBC rule change regarding the formation of leagues, no center would accept that. They would simply not certify their lanes, offer unsanctioned leagues and tell the USBC to shove off. They are not going to let the USBC dictate how they run their day to day business.
Bill
I first want to say I appreciate the post Phillip.
Now, for you. Your wrong first of all. Centers won't accept my rule? Let's see how well they do with no leagues. Or the 2 leagues remaining that are non sanctioned. This rule needs to be mandated, it is harsh but it is better for the future of bowling. Someday you may thank me. I don't like government telling a buisiness how they must be ran usually, but this is an exception. Again, a center would be stupid and I would think eventually broke without sanctioned leagues. People are not going to stay in non sanctioned leagues for long, they are journey people. And when they find out that thier scores are meaningless and pointless, they will drop and the bowling alleys will have nothing.
Edited on 11/29/2005 6:58 PM
Post by: Smash49 on November 30, 2005, 12:46:38 PM
If you are in DFW come to AMF Irving. During the afternoon Monday and Wednesday the place is a tomb. Sometimes on Sunday there is also no one there. Lanes no problem. All 48 wide open. On Tuesday and Thursday is a different story. Afternoons are taken up with our high school programs and 110 teenagers. Saturday the youth league in the morning has 15 kids total most days and there are plenty of lanes. Glow bowling???? They have the stuff but I have not seen it operate in over a year so the music is sometimes really loud but no lights. Music can be anything including elevator music. Previous manager told me they lost the manual and didn't know how to operate the glow bowling setup! Don't know if that's true or if she didn't want to mess with it.
Smash49
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Smash49
robert@bowlersslidesock.com
Bowler's Slide Sock: Sliding Consistently on ALL Conditions is Our Business!!!
www.bowlersslidesock.com
www.slsmdesigns.com/irvinghighbowling - www.strikingcatbowling.com
Post by: BrianCRX90 on November 30, 2005, 06:28:40 PM
But then I discovered an actull independant alley in Grand Prarie, The Forum, home of the ex PBA tournaments from the 70's to mid 90's.
Post by: Smash49 on November 30, 2005, 07:18:18 PM
Smash49
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Smash49
robert@bowlersslidesock.com
Bowler's Slide Sock: Sliding Consistently on ALL Conditions is Our Business!!!
www.bowlersslidesock.com
www.slsmdesigns.com/irvinghighbowling - www.strikingcatbowling.com
Post by: doubleraven on December 01, 2005, 02:20:39 AM
quote:
Ok another rant I just though about from that above post that ticks me off. I think every bowling center in this country that DOES currently hold at least 1 league that is sanctioned by USBC must sign a binding contract. This contract would state that a Bowling alley has no right to deny USBC or future USBC members from forming a league. No bowling alley that signs this contract can prevent a league from creating or continuing a sanctioned USBC league from the bowling alleys discretion from the business times of opening and operations and closing unless there is unlawful or uncivil proof without unreasonable doubt towards a certain individual
In other words in English, NO BOWLING ALLEY has the right to refuse anyone forming a league ANYTIME. So if you want to form a league during Friday or Saturday night the league has a full right of forming such a league and has FULL RIGHT to make sure the league is under USBC specifications and that would INCLUDE the banning of GLOW BOWL during league times.
If a house is breaking this contract, the fine starts at $1,000 dollars and goes up from there.
This should be a new USBC rule, along with a new USBC rules on oiling the lanes…which is a whole other topic.
Edited on 11/29/2005 1:29 PM
This is one of the absolute worst ideas I have heard of (no offense.) The thing you don't seem to want to accept is that bowling, above all else, is a business. When you run a business, you get the right to refuse service to anyone you want, for any reason you want. I can bring in $4-5000 on a Saturday night, complete with glow bowling. As a business owner, why would I bind myself to having a league this night, and ruining that source of income.
Say a league forms: 6 teams, 3 people each. Small, shotty league, but due to USBC contract, I'm forced to host this league. Reasonable lineage, say $6 a head for three games. Thats $108 during peak time that I could be making 40 times that on glow bowling. Yes! 40 times that!
I realize that what you want is for the good of the sport of bowling, but what you fail to realize, is that without the glow bowling and birthday parties, the business of bowling would fail, and then you won't be able to find a house to play the sport of bowling.
Post by: Smash49 on December 01, 2005, 07:43:32 AM
That is not a fair comparison because if you even had a 20 team 4 man league you still would not even be close. You would have Glow Bowling 24hrs a day and birthday parties. No one would bowl at that point. First how many lanes do you have running during the glow bowl? What is the lineage per game average for that? The average may even be better due to people socializing rather than bowling or it may be lower due to quantity. Next what part of the percentage is brought in of that $4-5000 by F&B. Granted a 6 team 3 man league is not worth your time to field but I would tell you that league is in the wrong spot or your marketer needs a new job. Birthday parties are usually held on the weekend or early evening. Glow bowling on the weekend evenings. Leagues are stable and should be the bread and butter. Glow bowl and birthday parties are the higher margin money makers and the loss leaders would be senior bowling and youth leagues. All of them should be treated properly because all of them have a place and function. The problem I think is many centers are blinded by the money from Glow Bowl and lose touch with their other customers and they lose interest in them to a point. If you treat your serious/casual league bowlers, seniors, and youth bowlers bad you have a big problem. They are the ones that promote bowling. Without that your Glow Bowls goes away too. Combine that with a loss of coolness factor that Glow Bowling has. It takes balance understanding , communications and customer service to make your customers happy. Unfortunately there are a lot of unhappy customers out there.
Smash49
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Smash49
robert@bowlersslidesock.com
Bowler's Slide Sock: Sliding Consistently on ALL Conditions is Our Business!!!
www.bowlersslidesock.com
www.slsmdesigns.com/irvinghighbowling - www.strikingcatbowling.com
Post by: janderson on December 01, 2005, 04:48:20 PM
I do not begrudge bowling centers their birthday party and rock-n-bowl profits on weekends, especially if it keeps the bowling center profitable and able to provide a home for leagues and tournaments. It was no different in the 70's when you had "moonlight bowling" or "best ball" or "scotch doubles" instead of glow-n-bowl or extreme bowling or what have you.
League bowlers are notoriously "thrifty". I certainly am. Even so, I will purchase a beer or burger or something from the house to show my support, especially when it is a house that offers special rates and bonuses for bowlers. How often do you see league bowlers sneaking drinks into bowling centers that have signs on the door asking that no outside food or drink be brought in? I see league bowlers doing it much more than open bowlers.
When it is all said and done, there is a place and time for the "serious" league bowlers as well as the "fun-time" weekend bowlers. Why should we begrudge the center owners from making money from both?
Phillip - great posts, and you're right, many failing center owners/managers don't realize the repeat business is so crucial in the entertainment industry. A good friend of mine started as the owner of a single bowling center and has bought out seven more in the last 10 years. All of his centers turn a profit because he understands how to generate repeat business. To quote him: "The league bowlers allow me to keep the doors open. The weekend bowlers allow me to turn a modest profit." He's also an avid bowling fan. His centers are modern, well-kept, well-managed, and ... go figure ... full.
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J.J. "Waterola Kid" Anderson, the bLowling King : Kill the back row
Post by: dogman666 on December 02, 2005, 09:01:44 AM