Author Topic: Corporate bowling says screw the league bowler! (Read 8326 times)

BrianCRX90 · « **on:** November 27, 2005, 01:32:44 PM »

I hate these corporate bowling alleys tailoring for kids. It's obvious that these chain bowling alleys only want to tailor to kids and not leagues anymore. This is the reason at an AMF house my Friday night league got terminated, or as I say "kicked out" so they could make time for glow bowl. The league was small and the only one but I've never heard of an alley kicking out a league to please open play bowlers. At this alley I checked up on their revenue so to speak on a Friday I had off league bowling at another alley and I didn't see that many people in it. Mabey when you charge over 4.00 a game that may be why.

Now AMF isn't off the hook solely. Brunswick is as much to blame. This freakin "Brunswick Zone" Taco Bell Blockbuster Walgreens Home Depot look alike crap is phoney and ridiculous. Look at these so called pit areas. They put in tables and stationary chairs with cheap kiddy furniture and call this a bowling alley.

So I go to practice at a Brunswick alley. One that is close to my house never has a lane open on the weekend it seems cause it's too busy with Birthday parties and glow bowl. We wouldn't want the serious league bowler to practice or anything. So I go 30 miles north to another Brunswick alley and when it's usually not busy it's packed this first time. I only get one lane but to make it worse I'm placed next to a birthday party. After just ignoring it I throw a few shots and this moron teenager asks me if I am a professional. I told him "If I was a professional do you think I'd be bowling next to the likes of you?". Then glow bowl comes on. After awhile I just went with it but after 6 games I went to throw a shot and even though I check my shoes every shot I didn't feel it coming but I stuck so bad I bashed my knee on the approach. I got so mad I kicked the ball return as hard as I could and I just left.. I'm sick of this BULLSH|T from these bowling alleys. Unfortunately the choices of independent bowling alleys in this country much less my area is getting slim. They are real bowling alleys most of them and don't appease to KIDS. I hate bratty kids, I hate birthday parties, I hate cheap a$s pit areas and I hate glow bowl. And if you don't like this post, then up yours!

Edited on 11/28/2005 4:33 PM

Edited on 11/28/2005 4:34 PM

BrianCRX90 · « **Reply #31 on:** November 28, 2005, 05:59:10 PM »

quote:
Sounds like someone needs to grow up a little here. If you are so mad about everything then just give up the sport.--------------------
Brunswick

Wow are you dumb and ignorant. I'm not giving up anything anytime. I'm fighting the system that your liberal arss kisses too.

Speedburner89 · « **Reply #32 on:** November 28, 2005, 08:33:17 PM »

i can see why you're so pissed. I'm guessing the centers in your area are quite small, i work and bowl at a 40 lane center so you almost always can get open bowl, plus i get FREE open bowling since i work there, which is pretty damn good when you the ginormous lineage that our center charges

--------------------
TJ for Prez

sdbowler · « **Reply #33 on:** November 29, 2005, 08:49:41 AM »

quote:
quote:
Sounds like someone needs to grow up a little here. If you are so mad about everything then just give up the sport.--------------------
Brunswick

Wow are you dumb and ignorant. I'm not giving up anything anytime. I'm fighting the system that your liberal arss kisses too.

I don't kiss arss to anyone. All I am saying is that many centers need to make money anyway possible due to league #'s going down. What are some easy ways to make money oh yeah birthday parties and "glow bowl". When are the best times for these to take place on the weekends. So that would mean Friday night, Saturday during the day and then late night and then again Sunday dring the day. If you are as good of a bowler and as serious as you say you are then you should already know that so you should expect the lanes to be busy during that time. IF don't like this going on then go to the bank and see if they will help you open a center and then just run leagues and no birthday parties or "glow bowl" we will see how short your center would stay open. Until you realize that the birthday parties and "glow bowl" are here to stay you will continue to have these problems of getting mad. And as far as no kids would join leagues after being involved in a birthday party or "glow bowl" is out of line I have seen many kids and even adults join leagues after they bowl in one of those. So yes it can open doors for people to join leagues. Oh yeah and also you would be the type that I would put on a lane where I knew that I would be putting open play really fast just to get under your skin.
--------------------
Brunswick

Phillip Marlowe · « **Reply #34 on:** November 29, 2005, 09:45:49 AM »

quote:
Sounds like someone needs to grow up a little here. If you are so mad about everything then just give up the sport. It sounds like nothing is making you happy with what your local centers are doing so just either give it up or get the money to build your own center and run it the way you think it should be ran.
--------------------
Brunswick

This is the best entry in the bunch. It is the attitude I got from two center owners. Those centers are now both very much in danger of going under. Why?

Well, the "open play" explosion has crested throughout most of the country. Bowling was "cool" for a while and "cosmic" or "Lightning" bowling brought in new, casual customers. But if you ask most people who have been watching open play lineage and gross unit sales of concessions (not purely revenues) the peak has come and gone. New centers are going up, but they are now cutting into a smaller pie. Bowling became a fad, but the fad is fading. For example, one house I go to had several full house cosmic "leagues" (really just come in and bowl for nightly prizes). Now, it still has good cosmic bowling on Friday and Saturday night, but the other times have dropped by half. In that house, and in two others, open play, outside of the weekends, has dropped dramatically. Even on the weekends, many houses that had once no lanes available now find their traffic down. Those trends, according to managers and owners (independents) I speak to -- who have been in the business a long time -- are likely to continue. Some houses, near popular malls and high traffic areas will still be successful with a focus on open play. Others will not.

Now to some Business 101. In the real world, local entertainment businesses (and bowling alleys are that) live and die with repeat customers. Casual customers provide the profit margin, but repeat customers provide the base for a successful business. (Unless one is a speciality business, that draws people for events at high prices.) The boom in open play has caused many owners and managers to forget their basic business model of league play as base, open play as profit. I predict (portentious music) a rash of closings throughout the country as proprietors and owners find that the lanes are beginning to lose money or that the land under the lanes is more valuable than the lanes themselves. The reason is that when you kill your repeat revenue base, your profits become variable. Since bowling is not a high margin business in the first place, a reduction in open play may well make it, for many of these places, a net loser over any two- to-four year period.

Frankly, if senior management in the corporate groups understood the above, rather than being concerned with the profit lines on each quarter, they wouldn't behave the way the do. They would treat most centers as small businesses that can be efficiently managed by a corporate model and benefit from cooperative advertising and promotion that a larger overarching structure can provide. The essence of the business would be rebuilding leagues and repeat customers as a base, providing them with reasonable shots, opportunities to practice or have fun with their families and then attracting open play when it is most profitable -- Friday evening through Sunday afternoon.

So sayeth the sage from the South.
--------------------
"Some guys get the world. Other guys get ex-hookers and a trip to Arizona."

Edited on 12/2/2005 10:24 AM

sdbowler · « **Reply #35 on:** November 29, 2005, 11:18:43 AM »

OK Phillip and Brian here is my point. Speaking from someone who worked at a bowling center for a few years and even managing it. League numbers are down plain and simple I think we can all agree to that. Now to make up for the money lost from leagues being down what do you do? Let's see try to start new leagues is an option, go after more open play is another option. Since league numbers are down a little hard to try to start a new league, can be done though. That leaves open play and there are many different ways to go with that. Birthday parties are one way and so is "glow bowl". I started up a Quarter Mania deal to where you would pay say $8 cover charge and then your shoes if needed, and games priced at a quarter. We packed the place for the first month or two of it. Speaking of repeat customers you can have repeat customers as open play and also as league bowlers. So Phillip you say help out your repeat customers what one do you help out then? I had many regular customers that would come in just for open play. A lot of my regular customers were not league bowlers they would come in with their kids just to open bowl yeah we were able to convert them into league bowlers but if it was not for open play they would not have joined a league. There is a fine line of catering to league bowler and catering to open play. Many centers dance that line perfect and get away with it. There are many centers that only care about open play and it shows in the leagues there. Then there are the centers that care only about leagues and could careless about open play and are doing ok. Once again I go back to what I said earlier if you don't like it leave. Every center is doing what they think they have to do to stay open and pay the bills. If you think it is that simple to run a center then open one up for yourself. Just like any business there are a lot of things going on behind the scene that you don't know about.
--------------------
Brunswick

sheppy335 · « **Reply #36 on:** November 29, 2005, 11:50:52 AM »

We havea house near us that wont take leagues on the weekends. The make more money with kids and Glow Bowl. I cant argue with them they need to pay teh bills.
--------------------
Oil is served Best with fingers!

Why does the 8 Pin laugh at me!

Sheppy

BrianCRX90 · « **Reply #37 on:** November 29, 2005, 12:37:48 PM »

Ok another rant I just though about from that above post that ticks me off. I think every bowling center in this country that DOES currently hold at least 1 league that is sanctioned by USBC must sign a binding contract. This contract would state that a Bowling alley has no right to deny USBC or future USBC members from forming a league. No bowling alley that signs this contract can prevent a league from creating or continuing a sanctioned USBC league from the bowling alleys discretion from the business times of opening and operations and closing unless there is unlawful or uncivil proof without unreasonable doubt towards a certain individual

In other words in English, NO BOWLING ALLEY has the right to refuse anyone forming a league ANYTIME. So if you want to form a league during Friday or Saturday night the league has a full right of forming such a league and has FULL RIGHT to make sure the league is under USBC specifications and that would INCLUDE the banning of GLOW BOWL during league times.

If a house is breaking this contract, the fine starts at $1,000 dollars and goes up from there.

This should be a new USBC rule, along with a new USBC rules on oiling the lanesâ€¦which is a whole other topic.

Edited on 11/29/2005 1:29 PM

Ragnar · « **Reply #38 on:** November 29, 2005, 12:40:10 PM »

quote:
quote:

You mentioned that you could only get one lane? I see alot of bowlers who inisit that they by themselves need a pair, because God forbid that you only bowl on one.

uhhh...

It's not the end of the world to have only 1 lane but last I checked we still by USBC rules have to bowl on a pair in santioned league. This is what practice is about, learning to bowl on a pair to prepare for league and tornaments.

There is no way that one person, on a pair of lanes, practicing, will have the same experience he will have bowling league or tournaments - none, zip, nada. One person bowls at a much faster pace and won't break the lanes down. You cannot duplicate the experience on a pair. Bowling on one lane only comes closer to reality - slower pace, more breakdown.
--------------------
"How can you govern a country which has 246 varieties of cheese?" - Charles De Gaulle
"Government is the Entertainment Division of the military-industrial complex." - Frank Zappa

cgilyeat · « **Reply #39 on:** November 29, 2005, 01:30:53 PM »

quote:
Ok another rant I just though about from that above post that ticks me off. I think every bowling center in this country that DOES currently hold at least 1 league that is sanctioned by USBC must sign a binding contract. This contract would state that a Bowling alley has no right to deny USBC or future USBC members from forming a league. No bowling alley that signs this contract can prevent a league from creating or continuing a sanctioned USBC league from the bowling alleys discretion from the business times of opening and operations and closing unless there is unlawful or uncivil proof without unreasonable doubt towards a certain individual

In other words in English, NO BOWLING ALLEY has the right to refuse anyone forming a league ANYTIME. So if you want to form a league during Friday or Saturday night the league has a full right of forming such a league and has FULL RIGHT to make sure the league is under USBC specifications and that would INCLUDE the banning of GLOW BOWL during league times.

If a house is breaking this contract, the fine starts at $1,000 dollars and goes up from there.

This should be a new USBC rule, along with a new USBC rules on oiling the lanesâ€¦which is a whole other topic.

Edited on 11/29/2005 1:29 PM

It appears that you have lost grasp of all reality

if you even think that this is even in the realm of possibility.

Phillip Marlowe · « **Reply #40 on:** November 29, 2005, 01:46:32 PM »

quote:
Every center is doing what they think they have to do to stay open and pay the bills. If you think it is that simple to run a center then open one up for yourself. Just like any business there are a lot of things going on behind the scene that you don't know about.
--------------------
Brunswick

Actually, I worked at and helped manage a bowling center some years ago, have consulted with managers regarding some of their problems (business and legal), have managed groups and business and have been involved in business and financial law and litigation for ... a long time.

Let's see, I also have spend time reading the several bowling management magazines, considered purchasing an interest in a center or agreeing to manage one, and have more experience in business than most folks. I also understand the corporate and accounting mentality from representing corporations and accountants and accounting firms.

Now, to your substance. Leagues are down. That is true nationally. But why? Some of it is cyclical, some of it cultural, but a great deal of it is because of the accounting-unit profit mentality. Let me explain. Accountants (who largely run many of the corporate bowling center companies) don't look at a business in a gross revenue/gross profit way. They see that, per unit, the open bowler provides more revenue for a center on average per visit or per game. Why? Because league bowlers get a break from actual lineage rates and tend to be more focused on bowling and less focused on drinking and eating. Viola, try to attract more open bowling. For a time, that worked. But the unit costprofit numbers don't tell the story. Yes, one has a number of repeat open bowling customers. But they generally do not "repeat" from year to year and form long term loyalty to a alley. Nor is that revenue consistent and essentially guaranteed. There are some who provide significant total revenue, but they are few and far between -- from my observation over the past 5 years -- while the league bowler will generally provide more total revenue. There are people who come in once a month, or occasionally and bowl, but they generally do not stay with the game long term -- nor are they solicited to join a league in most places (how do I know, I asked, and many would LIKE to try a league).

My point was that many center operators and most corporate owners don't understand the underlying nature of the market they are operating in and don't get the cyclical nature of open play. Yes, leagues go down, but the experience of people who try to build them is that you can, in fact, build leagues, but it takes effort. From my conversations with corporate folks and local managers, they do not want to make the effort because those efforts take away from immediate cost management and personnel management and do not pay off quickly with increased revenue, though it would pay off over the long run. This focus is what I mean by unit profit focus.

Oh, since I am probably the only person on this string who deals with the effect of the need to show a quarterly result rather than long term planning as a result of the pressure caused to corporate owners by the finance market, you might not want to accuse me of not knowing what I am talking about. Further, managers and owners are going to find, if they have underlying operating lines of credit (as many do), that their cost of credit will go up when open play and the revenue derived from it begins to decline -- especially if they haven't predicted that in their business plans. One of the issues in the credit market is the ability to predict your business -- and bowling management has been horrible at building and predicting the course of their business. In essence, if you can replace the total revenue from leagues with open bowling, you can do fine. If not, well, you are in trouble, and over the long run, the proprietors who have bet on the casual entertainment dollar as their ticket are probably in trouble.

What do you have to do to run a bowling business:

1. Financial management. You have to be able to understand the financial structure, pay attention to the cash flow and credit needs of the business. This requires an understanding of the basic local accounting issues and the issues regarding free cash flow, discounts for credit and payment options and actual revenues, costs, depreciation and reserves for unexpected contingencies and purchases. Further, one has to understand these issues and be able to present plans and budgets that meet the needs of owners and or credit providers. This part of the planning may lead to skimping on maintenance and personnel in the need to show short term profit or revenue/cost ratio gains.

2. Personnel management. One has to find, hire and supervise people who operate in diverse positions -- cashiers, chasers, maintenance, lane/machine maintenance maintenance for just couple of examples -- and insure that sufficient personnel are available to meet anticipated demand. Further, because bowling centers tend not to pay well, (in fact, the pay sucks, which is why I stopped considering it) you have to find a way to motivate people who are, essentially, underpaid. Further, the best managers understand enough about each of the jobs or functions to essentially check on the job the people they hire are doing, and are observant and care enough to ensure that the visible issues are addressed by their people.

3. Facilities management. The physical plant has to be taken care of and cleaned. You need to decide how to use the space, what the revenue possibilities for each space are and try to maximize the revenue per square foot of non-bowling space. Further, one has to anticipate when the physical plant needs work and budget and plan for necessary physical upgrades.

4. Promotion. You have to analyze your market, location and customers. You need to be out there, dealing with customers to get a sense of what they want, what their gripes are and to try to make them feel at home. There has to be targeted marketing of the facilities for parties of one type or another and the potential for specialty group uses or leagues. This involves contact with groups, use of media, budgeting for marketing and advertising.

These are only part of the job...oh, but I don't understand what I am talking about.

--------------------
"Some guys get the world. Other guys get ex-hookers and a trip to Arizona."

Edited on 11/29/2005 3:30 PM

Edited on 11/30/2005 12:01 PM

BrianCRX90 · « **Reply #41 on:** November 29, 2005, 06:06:02 PM »

quote:

Also, as for your proposed USBC rule change regarding the formation of leagues, no center would accept that. They would simply not certify their lanes, offer unsanctioned leagues and tell the USBC to shove off. They are not going to let the USBC dictate how they run their day to day business.

Bill

I first want to say I appreciate the post Phillip.

Now, for you. Your wrong first of all. Centers won't accept my rule? Let's see how well they do with no leagues. Or the 2 leagues remaining that are non sanctioned. This rule needs to be mandated, it is harsh but it is better for the future of bowling. Someday you may thank me. I don't like government telling a buisiness how they must be ran usually, but this is an exception. Again, a center would be stupid and I would think eventually broke without sanctioned leagues. People are not going to stay in non sanctioned leagues for long, they are journey people. And when they find out that thier scores are meaningless and pointless, they will drop and the bowling alleys will have nothing.

Edited on 11/29/2005 6:58 PM

Smash49 · « **Reply #42 on:** November 30, 2005, 12:46:38 PM »

Hey Brian

If you are in DFW come to AMF Irving. During the afternoon Monday and Wednesday the place is a tomb. Sometimes on Sunday there is also no one there. Lanes no problem. All 48 wide open. On Tuesday and Thursday is a different story. Afternoons are taken up with our high school programs and 110 teenagers. Saturday the youth league in the morning has 15 kids total most days and there are plenty of lanes. Glow bowling?

They have the stuff but I have not seen it operate in over a year so the music is sometimes really loud but no lights. Music can be anything including elevator music. Previous manager told me they lost the manual and didn't know how to operate the glow bowling setup! Don't know if that's true or if she didn't want to mess with it.

Smash49
--------------------
Smash49
robert@bowlersslidesock.com
Bowler's Slide Sock: Sliding Consistently on ALL Conditions is Our Business!!!
www.bowlersslidesock.com
www.slsmdesigns.com/irvinghighbowling - www.strikingcatbowling.com

BrianCRX90 · « **Reply #43 on:** November 30, 2005, 06:28:40 PM »

Is that still called Triangle? I haven't bowled there in 5 years. When Showplace in Euless was good ( That was the house our league was kicked out of, I personally banned it now )I would go there as a last resort.
But then I discovered an actull independant alley in Grand Prarie, The Forum, home of the ex PBA tournaments from the 70's to mid 90's.

Smash49 · « **Reply #44 on:** November 30, 2005, 07:18:18 PM »

Triangle, Golden Triangle, AMF Irving still the same place.

Smash49
--------------------
Smash49
robert@bowlersslidesock.com
Bowler's Slide Sock: Sliding Consistently on ALL Conditions is Our Business!!!
www.bowlersslidesock.com
www.slsmdesigns.com/irvinghighbowling - www.strikingcatbowling.com

doubleraven · « **Reply #45 on:** December 01, 2005, 02:20:39 AM »

quote:
Ok another rant I just though about from that above post that ticks me off. I think every bowling center in this country that DOES currently hold at least 1 league that is sanctioned by USBC must sign a binding contract. This contract would state that a Bowling alley has no right to deny USBC or future USBC members from forming a league. No bowling alley that signs this contract can prevent a league from creating or continuing a sanctioned USBC league from the bowling alleys discretion from the business times of opening and operations and closing unless there is unlawful or uncivil proof without unreasonable doubt towards a certain individual

In other words in English, NO BOWLING ALLEY has the right to refuse anyone forming a league ANYTIME. So if you want to form a league during Friday or Saturday night the league has a full right of forming such a league and has FULL RIGHT to make sure the league is under USBC specifications and that would INCLUDE the banning of GLOW BOWL during league times.

If a house is breaking this contract, the fine starts at $1,000 dollars and goes up from there.

This should be a new USBC rule, along with a new USBC rules on oiling the lanesâ€¦which is a whole other topic.

Edited on 11/29/2005 1:29 PM

This is one of the absolute worst ideas I have heard of (no offense.) The thing you don't seem to want to accept is that bowling, above all else, is a business. When you run a business, you get the right to refuse service to anyone you want, for any reason you want. I can bring in $4-5000 on a Saturday night, complete with glow bowling. As a business owner, why would I bind myself to having a league this night, and ruining that source of income.

Say a league forms: 6 teams, 3 people each. Small, shotty league, but due to USBC contract, I'm forced to host this league. Reasonable lineage, say $6 a head for three games. Thats $108 during peak time that I could be making 40 times that on glow bowling. Yes! 40 times that!

I realize that what you want is for the good of the sport of bowling, but what you fail to realize, is that without the glow bowling and birthday parties, the business of bowling would fail, and then you won't be able to find a house to play the sport of bowling.

Author Topic: Corporate bowling says screw the league bowler! (Read 8326 times)

BrianCRX90

Corporate bowling says screw the league bowler!

BrianCRX90

Re: Corporate bowling says screw the league bowler!

Speedburner89

Re: Corporate bowling says screw the league bowler!

sdbowler

Re: Corporate bowling says screw the league bowler!

Phillip Marlowe

Re: Corporate bowling says screw the league bowler!

sdbowler

Re: Corporate bowling says screw the league bowler!

sheppy335

Re: Corporate bowling says screw the league bowler!

BrianCRX90

Re: Corporate bowling says screw the league bowler!

Ragnar

Re: Corporate bowling says screw the league bowler!

cgilyeat

Re: Corporate bowling says screw the league bowler!

Phillip Marlowe

Re: Corporate bowling says screw the league bowler!

BrianCRX90

Re: Corporate bowling says screw the league bowler!

Smash49

Re: Corporate bowling says screw the league bowler!

BrianCRX90

Re: Corporate bowling says screw the league bowler!

Smash49

Re: Corporate bowling says screw the league bowler!

doubleraven

Re: Corporate bowling says screw the league bowler!