BallReviews
General Category => Miscellaneous => Topic started by: bowl400 on September 16, 2015, 12:56:08 PM
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Wondering if anyone knows how much it costs to oil one lane with a 40 foot long house pattern using Kegel Fire and/or Ice conditioner. Have bowled 3 different centers so far starting this winter and all 3 featured short/lightly oiled patterns. I was told that the centers are just trying to save a little money.
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It makes me so angry. I went from being able to use high end balls to now needing all low end ones.
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Got a Ride, still too much ball. Looking at Tropicals now.
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Got a Ride, still too much ball. Looking at Tropicals now.
My shout does well...on the dirt
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That's the case here in the house I bowl. They buy a walker and barely use much oil. Bowlers complained about the length a couple years back too, so it's about 37' with low volume. It's hell in the second shift leagues. My "weakest" cover is pushing me away from the pocket.
My bag has a 5k with UFO polish medium ball, a polished entry level ball, and soon a urethane blue hammer.
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Must add too, at this same house, I used the tropical for 4 years as my primary ball.
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"Saving money" does jackitty squat if dry lanes cause so many bowlers to quit bowling and leave the center in worse financial status than before due to lack of income.
That's the problem with today's economy: businesses needlessly cut corners and/or raise prices in an attempt to increase their profits sky high, and when the consumer responds (rightfully so) by cutting back on their own spending simply because the product is too expensive or undesirable, businesses wrongfully blame the consumer, cut even more corners, and raise prices even higher.
Higher costs/less spending aren't always avoidable, but I feel that 99.99% of businesses take advantage of the helpless consumers, and do the exact opposite of what they should when their overpriced (and sometimes poor in general) goods don't turn a profit.
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Easy formulation IF you know the cost of the oil. I think:
Generally speaking my thought is THS lets say use 20mil or roughly 2/3 of an ounce of oil. If a gallon is used at $1 an ounce ($128 a gallon) it would be .67 cents to cover just the cost of the oil. I do not know the cost of the oil, I'm sure it varies on the amount that is purchased.
Then again, I do not know if the oil is mixed with anything else, but it could be figured out just for that as well.
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OK, so anyone know the cost of 1 gallon of Kegel Fire/Ice conditioner?
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I don't care if lane oil is $300 per gallon the incremental cost of going from 15ml ( very low ) to 30ml ( very high ) is almost inconsequential compared to all the other costs of maintaining lanes. In addition if you look at the long term damage to lane surfaces in terms of extra friction, and it is almost certainly false economy to cut back on oil.
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According to a 2014 jayhawk price list
A 5 Gallon jug of Kegel Ice or Fire Lane conditioner is $245.00
okay If I figured it right.
5 gallons is 18927 milliliters.
say 30 milliliters per lane.
That would be about 631 lanes worth, for a 32 lane house that would be about a 20 day supply, if they just oiled once a day with that amount of oil each day.
$245 / 631 lanes would be about .40 cents per lane. for just the oil.
that wouldn't factor in the other overhead like labor, power usage, waste, clean up etc.
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So, with a labor, power, etc, let's call it maybe 80 cents a lane? Perhaps I will take up a collection at our next league session, say 50 cents per bowler to get some more length and volume ;D
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So, with a labor, power, etc, let's call it maybe 80 cents a lane? Perhaps I will take up a collection at our next league session, say 50 cents per bowler to get some more length and volume ;D
I tried that at our house. I few years ago I told the manager that I would buy the oil for our league if they would put out more volume. He didn't like someone else telling him how to oil his lanes.
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Figured another way the cost of oil is 1.29 cents per ml. Incremental cost of going from 15 to 30 ml per lane would be 19.4 cents per lane. In actuality this would be the extreme because 25 ml would be plenty of volume on a house shot. All of the other costs cited are fixed with respect to the volume of oil.
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The difference in cost between high volume and low volume is minimal, but it costs way more than $1 lane to run lanes.
Oil
Cleaner
Cloth
Machine maintenance
Batteries @ about $600/year
The machine itself. New Flexes are $35k. Cheap machines these days are $25k.
Labor
On top of all that the great majority of league bowlers would rather have the lanes on the drier side. The vocal minority is the group that wants more oil on the lane.
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The difference in cost between high volume and low volume is minimal, but it costs way more than $1 lane to run lanes.
Oil
Cleaner
Cloth
Machine maintenance
Batteries @ about $600/year
The machine itself. New Flexes are $35k. Cheap machines these days are $25k.
Labor
On top of all that the great majority of league bowlers would rather have the lanes on the drier side. The vocal minority is the group that wants more oil on the lane.
True, but as avabob stated, it is the incremental cost that is small. Assuming the center does oil once a day or at least before league, getting a small uptick in volume and/or length should be minimal additional cost.
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Most Kegel patterns use 40 or 50ml. Our house uses Stone Street, 42 ft 50ml.
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The problem is that you can ask 100 different bowlers what a heavy oil condition is and get 100 different answers.
The owners have to put out shots (volumes) that appease the greatest number of bowlers.
Now I know some centers will not oil after leagues on Friday until Leagues start again on Monday. It would seem they should run the lanes at least daily if they are getting any play at all.
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the people that I bowl with, MOST prefer how the lanes are right now. Short and low volume, they have spoken. Some have threatened to leave the house if management didn't do anything about the 40 footer, but I doubt they would have left because the closest house that's privately owned puts down more length and volume to last 5 to 6 games.
I don't mind the "dry" because that's my weakest part of my game. but, I would pay to have our lanes re-oiled before our second shift.
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I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Nobody wants to hear it, but bowling balls are WAY too strong.
You can put a 42ft, heavy oil condition out, and three people with low grit, "high performance" balls can blow it up in a game or so.
It isn't an oil/conditioner problem. I can remember a time when we used 1/2 the oil used these days, yet it would last all night.
The oils these days are really great, much better than anything we had back then, yet today's bowling balls blow it to bits in nothing flat.
It isn't an oil problem. The oils just fine.
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I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Nobody wants to hear it, but bowling balls are WAY too strong.
You can put a 42ft, heavy oil condition out, and three people with low grit, "high performance" balls can blow it up in a game or so.
It isn't an oil/conditioner problem. I can remember a time when we used 1/2 the oil used these days, yet it would last all night.
The oils these days are really great, much better than anything we had back then, yet today's bowling balls blow it to bits in nothing flat.
It isn't an oil problem. The oils just fine.
this is true. I can start the night with the likes of a Jackal, Crux, or Guru. But then, I have nowhere to go once I've eaten a hole through the center of the pattern. So instead, I start with a Venom Shock and leave myself room to move left or go to the Redline once I can't carry the corners. But the problem is the hook monsters that do the "work" for you. Yet leave you stranded by the 2nd game.
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I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Nobody wants to hear it, but bowling balls are WAY too strong.
You can put a 42ft, heavy oil condition out, and three people with low grit, "high performance" balls can blow it up in a game or so.
It isn't an oil/conditioner problem. I can remember a time when we used 1/2 the oil used these days, yet it would last all night.
The oils these days are really great, much better than anything we had back then, yet today's bowling balls blow it to bits in nothing flat.
It isn't an oil problem. The oils just fine.
I absolutely agree with this. I've heard so many people complaining about how the shot is "dry" because the modern, hooks more than any ball in the history of the game ball in their hands is hooking too much. The lane isn't too dry, the balls you are throwing are too damn strong. Stop trying to throw a heavy oil ball on light oil shots. Instead of demanding the house put out a shot to match your equipment, how about you use equipment appropriate for the shot? I use a Tropical Breeze more times than not, and it works just fine. Heck, I used a circa 1995 Red Reactive Hammer a while back, and it worked great. Stop complaining, and start adjusting.
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I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Nobody wants to hear it, but bowling balls are WAY too strong.
You can put a 42ft, heavy oil condition out, and three people with low grit, "high performance" balls can blow it up in a game or so.
It isn't an oil/conditioner problem. I can remember a time when we used 1/2 the oil used these days, yet it would last all night.
The oils these days are really great, much better than anything we had back then, yet today's bowling balls blow it to bits in nothing flat.
It isn't an oil problem. The oils just fine.
In theory I agree. I feel this is the case for most people. However, I do know my center is tough where even weak equipment is too much. I am currently playing inside of 15 with a Motiv QZ2. We have a lefty throwing a Turbo urethane.
But I agree, the balls today are very strong. I have not thrown a "high performance" ball since the Rhino Pros from the early 90s.
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Most Kegel patterns use 40 or 50ml. Our house uses Stone Street, 42 ft 50ml.
If your house is actually doing that, they are taking major liberties with the pattern. Most Kegel patterns use 19-24 mL, nothing over 26 that I saw. The pump setting commonly is 50, maybe that is what you meant?
Almost no one would get any hook on 40-50 mL unless it was a super wall with nothing outside of 10 where you could basically ignore the wad of oil in the middle. I don't have it in front of me, but I remember one of the sport patterns I bowled on this summer had 30-31 mL and it was pretty slick.
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The difference in cost between high volume and low volume is minimal, but it costs way more than $1 lane to run lanes.
Oil
Cleaner
Cloth
Machine maintenance
Batteries @ about $600/year
The machine itself. New Flexes are $35k. Cheap machines these days are $25k.
Labor
On top of all that the great majority of league bowlers would rather have the lanes on the drier side. The vocal minority is the group that wants more oil on the lane.
I can agree with all but the labor. The individual that is oiling the lanes is getting paid regardless if they are oiling the lanes or standing at the counter with there face buried in there cell phone.
We bowl second shift and we have our house strip and oil before we bowl. They charge us an extra .10 per bowler per night to do this. Twelve 3 person teams so they get an extra $129.00 a season from our league.
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In my opinion, the cost of oiling the lanes is the LAST place you want to try to cut costs. If people can't come in and find something suitable to practice on, or bowl their leagues, they should, and will, take their business elsewhere.
The center that I manage has 32 lanes that get oiled every night at closing for the following day business AND get re-oiled before the evening leagues, which means most get done twice within a 24 hour period.
It's ridiculous to hear about places oiling twice a week, for example, or oiling without stripping at the same time. It's just asking for trouble...
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According to a 2014 jayhawk price list
A 5 Gallon jug of Kegel Ice or Fire Lane conditioner is $245.00
okay If I figured it right.
5 gallons is 18927 milliliters.
say 30 milliliters per lane.
That would be about 631 lanes worth, for a 32 lane house that would be about a 20 day supply, if they just oiled once a day with that amount of oil each day.
$245 / 631 lanes would be about .40 cents per lane. for just the oil.
that wouldn't factor in the other overhead like labor, power usage, waste, clean up etc.
Here are prices for all lane machine products needed:
Oil - $215 - $220 for 5 gallons
Cleaner - $80.00 for 5 gallons (usually a 5:1 ratio +/-)
Machine Cloth - $85.00 for 4 rolls
Depending on your distributor there may be freight charges, BUT most good distributors have a dollar value to get free freight.
On another post regarding oil volumes (poster said kegel patterns) the 50 is the pump not the volume of oil. The highest volume (looking quickly) I saw was the 2013 USBC masters which had 30.30 for 39ft. Most house shots will have somewhere in the neighborhood of 18-24 for 38-40 feet.
As stated before there's alot of people out there using ball WAY too aggresive for the pattern. And of course you have the outside boards with little to no volume on them.
Not oiling is NOT saving you tons of money. We oil our lanes everyday (sometimes twice) 364 days per year, no exceptions. Also remember the TRUE purpose of oil is to protect the lane surface.
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So we've seen from a few people here that the savings is extremely minimal at best, so that leads me to ask: Why do centers continue to rationalize using less oil when it's shown it doesn't lead to savings?
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So we've seen from a few people here that the savings is extremely minimal at best, so that leads me to ask: Why do centers continue to rationalize using less oil when it's shown it doesn't lead to savings?
Because lower skilled(measured in rev rate only) bowlers usually do better with more friction. One of the houses where I bowl has a different shot during the day versus the night because the seniors complained about there being too much oil.
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Not oiling is NOT saving you tons of money. We oil our lanes everyday (sometimes twice) 364 days per year, no exceptions. Also remember the TRUE purpose of oil is to protect the lane surface.
I have been trying to convince my house of this fact for the past few years. Most leagues start on lane 1 and no league is larger than 20 teams, so the last four lanes rarely get oiled and for the shorter leagues, those lanes not used don't get oiled that night. I keep telling them that you need to oil the lanes at least daily but some lanes (21-24) may only get oiled twice a week.
When I go in to open bowl, I usually only ask for one game. If the lane does not have any oil, then I only bowl that one game, but if it is oiled, then I will go up and pay for more games.
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Another problem you have is surfaces are getting old. I bowl on a 16 year old anvil lane surface in one league. The THS has plenty of oil volume and I often play really weak with my Ride outside 10 for a game. However the middles are so trashed from 10 to 15 that I quickly have to jump 5 boards left and go to something stronger like my polished Black Widow. By the 4th game I am playing 20 out to 10. Not a problem, but I do think back to the days of double shift leagues when we could still start out to the right of 15 board at 9 oclock. This with less than half the volume of oil we would typically see today.
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I have a league (24 teams/mixed) that uses Kegel High Street (21.10 volume and 44ft) For a pattern that long, the volume isn't very much at all. The league coordinator who chose the condition said "it helps the lady bowlers and rev deficient players still get some hook" I'm bowling with this group this year and the strongest ball i can use is a Vintage LT48. Averages in this league are HUGE in comparison to our standard house shot which is White 2 (41 feet with 25.45 volume) one bowler last year under the same conditions averaged 227 on the High Street and 210 on the White 2, big difference considering it's the same center.
But anyways to answer your question about why the centers would make the decision not to oil to save pennies, I think John Taffer from Bar Rescue said something along the lines of "Stopping to pick up dimes instead of trying to get more business to make dollars'
So we've seen from a few people here that the savings is extremely minimal at best, so that leads me to ask: Why do centers continue to rationalize using less oil when it's shown it doesn't lead to savings?
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Biggest issue for most non scratch senior leagues is slow balls speeds causing burn out. If I wanted to help the most seniors I would go to a long buff with a heavy crown in the middle. Funny that the highest scoring sport and PBA patterns are the long patterns. Toughest are the 38-40 foot patterns that tend to be flatter. Even the long patterns are attacked more effectively by strong core pearls than by aggressive shelled balls.
Digressing a bit, most people today probably don't realize that the original lane conditioning rules of the 70s were aimed at taking away the hold area in the middle. The ABC rules makers didn't realize that a new breed of power player was emerging that could exploit unlimited swing area more effectively than us traditional guys could exploit the hold area. Nothing I like better than matching my low rev low speed roll up against a high rev kid on a 45 or longer pattern.
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Cost to oil the lanes has variables:
1. Oil type
2. Cleaner Type
3. Liner duster type
From this you need the volume of the pattern and the volume of the cleaner. Cost will be dependent on the above and then how applied.
quote author=bowl400 link=topic=309102.msg2536736#msg2536736 date=1442426168]
Wondering if anyone knows how much it costs to oil one lane with a 40 foot long house pattern using Kegel Fire and/or Ice conditioner. Have bowled 3 different centers so far starting this winter and all 3 featured short/lightly oiled patterns. I was told that the centers are just trying to save a little money.
[/quote]
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Has anyone been successful in getting a center to increase oil volume? If so what course of action did you take? I bowl I three different houses and only one has this issue. I'm dropping this league if conditions persist.
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it costs about $1.25 per lane...so I'm told
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Honestly, the house that I bowl leagues with lower volume and shorter length, is my go to bowling center. There is oil, but not enough for those how prefer a little more units like myself. Longer patterns is my cup of tea. But still, this "dryer" house is my favorite.
1. I have to work for my 200+ average.
2. The other house with the same distance from my house, I have averaged a dozen pins more without really try. My pocket is very wide lol.
I know many bowlers left for the higher scoring house and good for them.
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it costs about $1.25 per lane...so I'm told
Probably true, but the oil is a very small part of that. Labor is the largest part. -- JohnP
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Yaaaa.....those jr high school kids are pretty expensive to employ !!
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About 4 hours a night our labor at one house is laying on the couch on the other side of the house watching tv.Cant say labor for most of the night labor is doing nothing.
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Same at my bowling establishment !
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Just because the bowling center you bowl at is poorly managed doesn't mean there is no "labor cost" associated with doing the lanes. And for the guys that think you can oil lanes for $1.25 each I have some advice. Do not go into business for yourself, you will fail miserably.
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Really don't make much sense to have a 20 to 30 thousand dollar lane machine and not use it to protect your lanes.Saying oil cost to much is crazy.Wonder how much 40 synthetic lanes cost from being wore out from not oiling.Regardless of cost that should be preventative maintenance.
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That's been our thinking the past few years .It's no wonder Brunswick sold it's bowling alleys !!
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I have been in business since 1989....doing great, thank you! So tell us genius...How much does it cost to oil a lane?
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No one is figuring the cost of the $25-35k lane machine, it's maintenance and labor to maintain as a cost. The $1.25 is close, but still not enough, in consumables and labor for the guy just pushing the button.
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I think we have two sides to this argument. You have the side that is determining the cost as if the center owns nothing so cost of:
- Machine
- Labor
- Oil
- Cleaner
- Cloth
Then you have those that assume you have those things already set in the cost and are only looking at what the difference in cost of oiling "light" to oiling "heavier than light." In this scenario the only difference would probably be the difference in cost of oil going from X ml to Y ml. You are going to oil the lanes anyway so all other things are the same.
Problem I think we are seeing is owners/managers SAYING it is cost when in reality they don't want to change anything. Perhaps they have friends who are scoring well. Perhaps the knuckle ball throwers have a louder voice. Perhaps the owner set the lanes up specifically for them. Either way, I really doubt cost is the real reason.
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spmcgivern I think you hit point that I was going to bring up sometimes it what most of the bowlers want at that center alot of free hook stand left send it right.
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I'm with Scrub on this one.Higher scores = more bowlers in your center.
Plain and simple
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In my area you have more bowlers who rather shoot 290 and lose than 190 and win I really hate to say that but it's the truth.
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"high scores = more bowlers"
that's been like that for decades.
we are a very small group of bowlers who prefer to be challenged. We are a very small group of bowlers that comes back for more when we bowl our worst. We are a very small group of bowlers who would drive more than a half hour just to bowl leagues with small price found.
Face it, the very very big group of bowlers, are organized recreational bowlers who are entitled to high scores. because, they pay good money on equipment, league dues, and they suck at golf.
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we are a very small group of bowlers who prefer to be challenged. We are a very small group of bowlers that comes back for more when we bowl our worst.
Thank God I'm a part of this group.
Face it, the very very big group of bowlers, are organized recreational bowlers who are entitled to high scores. because, they pay good money on equipment, league dues
Thank God I'm not a part of this group.
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We have a lefty throwing a Turbo urethane.
They must REALLY have no hand if they need a Turbo to get to the pocket from the left side :D
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Yaaaa.....those jr high school kids are pretty expensive to employ !!
minimum wage is still minimum wage, no matter how old or young the employee...especially with so many entities whining about payments under the table (which would, in this case, include free games in exchange for labor around the center).
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If you figure in the cost of the machine to oil the lanes, then the lanes are cheaper and cheaper each time the lanes are oiled. The machine has to be paid off sooner or later. Ten years after buying the machine you cant still figure that cost into the amount. So if you bought a 25G machine and oiled one lane...That lane cost $25,001.25.
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If you figure in the cost of the machine to oil the lanes, then the lanes are cheaper and cheaper each time the lanes are oiled. The machine has to be paid off sooner or later. Ten years after buying the machine you cant still figure that cost into the amount. So if you bought a 25G machine and oiled one lane...That lane cost $25,001.25.
I always thought of the Lane Machine as being somewhat like a car. There is more to the cost of driving than just the initial purchase.
But I could be wrong.
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Lane machine maintenance is an issue. A lot of people treat lane machines like they do their car, and skip routine maintenance. Result is the same. Shortened life, and more problems. I was just talking to a friend of mine the other day. He sad that they had been having a problem with the pattern at the house we bowl. They couldn't get the house shot or the sport patterns to set up right. Then somebody noticed a bolt laying in the gutter on one of the lanes. Replaced the bolt, and viola.