Author Topic: Could a scratch league survive? (Read 2784 times)

serice · « **on:** May 27, 2003, 06:17:33 PM »

Kevin brough up some point is his post, but it got me thinking. Could a scratch league survive? What rules would need to be in place to make it viable? Do you have enough people willing to bowl scratch in your area to make it work?

Splitz · « **Reply #1 on:** May 28, 2003, 09:30:27 AM »

We have a couple scratch leagues where I bowl that have been around for years. The reason they survive in an area with lots of bowling centers and fewer bowlers is they have a team average cap. Your individual bowlers last years' averages when composited and totaled up may not excede the cap agreed on by the league. It eliminates stacking teams with all the best bowlers so you keep more people interested.

thegame · « **Reply #2 on:** May 28, 2003, 10:14:32 AM »

Getting scratch leagues around here is no problem. Our local houses just use the cap rule that Splitz brought up. Our Thursday night scratch league is an 810 cap limit. My question (and maybe this was yours also), is if a house could get away with an open scratch league, with no cap limit, just get the best four or five bowlers you can together and get after it. That would be a challenge in this day and age. My pro shop operator was one of the best bowlers in the area in his younger days, and he bowled in an open scratch league with Walter Ray Williams, Jr. and a few other names that would be a little intimidating. He said they had a lot of fun in that league, but these days it would be a lot tougher to pull off a league like that.

Edited on 5/28/2003 10:18 AM

card79 · « **Reply #3 on:** May 28, 2003, 10:18:27 AM »

We have an open scratch league here it is a mens all star classic. You just get your best 5 and go at it. The league has been in existence of 83 years. It is like 12 teams right now. I think every guy starting out like me just prays to get good enough for somebody to ask him to just sub in the league let alone become a member. I don't have a huge average, but I wish there were a lot more scratch leagues. I am so tired of getting nailed by the guy with the 120 average throwing a 180. Lets just shoe them up and see who is better.
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I don't really play cards and I am not 79, but it fits together somehow.

Goof1073 · « **Reply #4 on:** May 28, 2003, 10:34:22 AM »

In the Central MA (Worcester) are we tried a few times to get a scratch league together. The one time that it got off the ground it only lasted 2 seasons. I think the average cap works but it has some drawbacks for the first year that a person bowls if the come from a harder house. This was the case the first season when a team killed everyone since the league took their book averages. Beyond that people found it tough to put teams together and I think that is what killed the league.

It's just tough in my area...while there are a lot of good bowlers, it doesn't seem like there are enough bowlers who want the challenge, etc.

Doc Hollywood · « **Reply #5 on:** May 28, 2003, 10:35:37 AM »

Scratch leagues will be around for a long while as long as there is more money to be made in the prize funds.

I find that there are more sandbaggers in the scratch leagues than in handicap leagues especially when there is a cap. The best teams come in at or just below the cap and always win and by just enough. If one guy bowls really well then someone who is a little high bags down. This way their averages stay about the same.

They do have a rule where the winning team has to be split up the following year but they have a couple back up players that switch from team to team.

I think it comes down to strategy of winning. The object is to win by whatever means and not bowling your best.

Look at baseball. If you have a hot hitter you walk him and try to pitch to the next guy. Think about how baseball would be if you only had to pitch strikes. I think the game would be more exciting.

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Doc
Owner and Inventor of
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mumzie · « **Reply #6 on:** May 28, 2003, 11:15:19 AM »

We have four scratch leagues in the area. One had an average cap of 840 two years ago, went to 860 last year, and 880 this coming year. Twelve teams, with a waiting list, and no more lanes available.
The other one I bowl in went from 825 to 840 two years ago. It was 12 teams this year.
There is a trio travel league that is draft by invitation only. I wouldn't have a clue about that league, because they don't allow women to bowl. Their choice -I just don't know anything about it.
I think the fourth league in the area is a trio, with a cap around 630.
The biggest league in the metro area is a "modified" scratch league - in other words, it went from scratch to reverse handicap to keep teams from "going over" the cap. Then they added individual handicaps for each match. I've not bowled it, because it's the same night as one of my REAL scratch leagues, but I understand that it's 32 teams, with a gigantic prize fund. And I've actually had bowlers argue with me that it was handicap... I guess they figure those added pins are just what they deserve. :-)

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Golf was invented by the same people who think music comes out of bagpipes.

Pinbuster · « **Reply #7 on:** May 28, 2003, 11:25:49 AM »

We have a 5 person scratch league with no cap. And I believe there is another 3 person league without a cap as well, at another house. There may be others.

In my opinion the 5 person league survives because they do not stack all the money on top. Teams that are not very strong will continue to bowl in the league just to bowl against the best in the area. They continue to do so because they are not being bled dry. They come out on the short end of the money but not real bad. The top 2 teams will take out enough to cover expenses plus a $100 per man. If they want more action they get brackets or side pots among themselves.

Steven · « **Reply #8 on:** May 28, 2003, 01:05:06 PM »

quote:
I don't count a league that uses a "cap" as a scratch league. You want to bowl scratch, then you beat the guy across from you with no help from a pin difference or a cap.

Brian: In a perfect world you're correct. But even though it's a compromise, "capped" scratch leagues are still scratch. If you think about it, how the teams were put together is irrelevant once the players get on the lanes and shoe it up. You have to beat the other team straight up, and if there are also match points at stake, you have to take out your opponent. In practical terms, the draft system is little different in that you are achieving a "pseudo" cap because the net effect is to spread talent somewhat equally across the league.

Regardless, I've personally come to love the scratch singles format over all else. The rules are simple -- you either beat your opponent, or he/she beats you. There is no having a a bad game and being baled out by your teammates. I'm currently in a PBA Pattern scratch singles league, and an 855 scratch foursome, and if I had to choose, I'd take the singles league hands down -- it's the purest form of competition.

Edited on 5/28/2003 1:10 PM

Kevin · « **Reply #9 on:** May 28, 2003, 02:06:18 PM »

I believe a Scratch league can work but I do not think it can work every night of the week. A Bowling Center will need a Majority of its leagues to be Handicap or they will end up closing their doors.

Not only do they need them to survive. The Scratch leagues need the handicap leagues to develop talent.

How many of you would have joined leagues and become 200 Bowlers if there wasn't a handicap league to start in?

I know someone posted that their son started Bowling one month ago and with HIS Coaching he fired a 600 series his first night in a league. I do not know how much training he did. But I find it hard to believe and probably is B$. Unless he was training 6 days a week.

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Winning and Losing are both very temporary things. Having done one or the other, we move on. Gloating over Victory or Sulking in Defeat is a good way to Stand Still.

Steven · « **Reply #10 on:** May 28, 2003, 03:50:02 PM »

quote:
Steven....Sorry, but in most capped leagues that I'm aware of, you take the difference between the two teams and the team with the lower team average, gets that pin difference.

Brian: All of the capped scratch leagues in my area are pure scratch when you hit the lanes -- there is no taking of any difference between team averages. The only time the 'cap' is an issue is when teams are initially formed. Once the league starts, you live or die by based on how you actually perform.

What you described (applying team difference to the lower average team) is what we call acorn handicap. I know of a number of leagues that use this format (I sub in one), but they are never labeled as 'capped scratch'. Maybe be use different terminology in our respective areas.

Regardless, you bring up a valid point about sandbagging in capped scratch leagues. I believe it's more of a problem than what most folks whine about in handicap formats. For capped scratch to work, you need a strong house owner/manager with the backbone necessary to re-rate baggers to their appropriate averages. In one house I bowl at we have that, and at another the owner is a guy who wears a skirt. You can guess which house has more complains/problems with respect to scratch capped operations.

CB · « **Reply #11 on:** May 28, 2003, 05:51:23 PM »

We have 2 strong scratch leagues at my home center. Both have been around for quite some time. The one was down over the last few years, but is back up to taking all 24 lanes and a waiting list to get in. The other is a lower level scratch that takes half the house and generally has a wait list to get in.

I'd venture to say that each of the centers in my area have at least on strong scratch league.
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I have no life, therefore I bowl

or I bowl, therefore I have no life? Okay here is the truth I bowl, therefore there is life

mumzie · « **Reply #12 on:** May 28, 2003, 06:35:02 PM »

Regarding bagging for capped leagues - it definitely happens. One of the teams in one of the scratch leagues consistently recruits out of state for their "fourth" bowler. They look for someone who averages 180 or so in a dungeon college house, and use them as their bagger. One bowler on this league came in at 182 and finished the year at 228 (I think). Excuse me???

A year or so ago, another team was courting a bowler during a summer league - this bowler hadn't bowled league in 2 years. They were pulling for him to shoot poorly all summer so that they could fit him on their team. The next to last week of league, the guy shot lights out - so much so that he would have had to have less than a 400 series the last week to meet the average requirement. The house secretary caught on - I don't believe the guy bowled (unless he was the guy that ended up on the other team). I hate the concept of "win at all costs and the heck with the rules".

I put my team together last year at 839 - we were too high this year to stay together, so I got a different 4th bowler (the three of us have been together for years), and we'll be at 840 on the nose next year. And we don't have a bagger in the bunch!
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Golf was invented by the same people who think music comes out of bagpipes.

Author Topic: Could a scratch league survive? (Read 2784 times)

serice

Could a scratch league survive?

Splitz

Re: Could a scratch league survive?

thegame

Re: Could a scratch league survive?

card79

Re: Could a scratch league survive?

Goof1073

Re: Could a scratch league survive?

Doc Hollywood

Re: Could a scratch league survive?

mumzie

Re: Could a scratch league survive?

Pinbuster

Re: Could a scratch league survive?

Steven

Re: Could a scratch league survive?

Kevin

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Steven

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CB

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mumzie

Re: Could a scratch league survive?