Author Topic: "Sawbones" type questions regarding balls... (Read 1962 times)

Hamburglar · « **on:** February 15, 2004, 12:57:53 AM »

For the "average" league bowler...the 1-3 league/week bolwer that may bowl in the local association tourneys and maybe the State tourney, who averages 175-185, who doesn't have lots of speed or enough revs to play deep inside, who will typically play the medium oil THS 98% of the time...

Is a "high performance" bowling ball too much ball?

Would this player be better off using a ball that isn't "top of the line" with a "high-tech" core/coverstock?

Do you think that the average bowler has the mentality "if it costs more and is high-tech, then it must be better and will help me improve my game"?
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That which doesn't kill you will only make you stronger, that which doesn't make you stronger is a waste of time!

tenpinspro · « **Reply #1 on:** February 15, 2004, 06:32:03 PM »

Hey VT,

I completely agree with you. Can you imagine how hard it is for me trying to explain why I can't sell this "latest and greatest" to a senior or someone who who throws 12mph but thinks more money is a better ball? No different then the NEW $500 golf driver, right? I hear you bud....

This subject was also discussed to some degree in Jabroni's tip of the week.
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Rick Leong
Ten Pins Pro Shop
Track Pro Shop Staff
Vise Grip Staff

tenpinspro · « **Reply #2 on:** February 15, 2004, 06:47:53 PM »

Nice try Bones but I'm not taking the bait. Right ball for the right condition, right club for the right distance. All relative to the individual.
Also another reason I'm broke....or I'd be selling cars instead...

--------------------
Rick Leong
Ten Pins Pro Shop
Track Pro Shop Staff
Vise Grip Staff

bigfoot · « **Reply #3 on:** February 15, 2004, 07:49:51 PM »

I bowl in 1 league and am currently averaging 197, but I'm not convinced
that a high end ball will improve my game much. When I don't strike or if I miss
a spare it's me, not the ball. The mid-range stuff such as the monster line suits me fine. Not that I wouldn't like to try the inferno line someday!!

mumzie · « **Reply #4 on:** February 15, 2004, 08:21:21 PM »

My opinion:

A high performance ball TENDS to be a bit more condition specific than a mid range ball - say Inferno vs. Monster.
Therefore, if the bowler isn't going to buy a bunch of equipment to cover different sorts of conditions, OR doesn't have enough knowledge (YET) of lane conditions to understand subtleties of changing balls when hitting the pocket, then a mid range ball would be a better choice.

BUT - with a THS that is more forgiving of errors, and doesn't require 1 board accuracy (or better), the bowler with less hand will probably prefer the look of the higher priced ball, regardless of the number of corner pins left.

I would recommend the bowler get a mid range ball. Then, if he truly finds a need for more than one, he'll have enough change back from that purchase to pick up another one.

tenpinspro · « **Reply #5 on:** February 16, 2004, 03:34:27 AM »

Game On Bones

...For one, to fairly reply to your analogy, you mention the SAME club but newer technology. In that case, you are probably correct. I WOULD suggest a Col Scout/R say over a KMART reactive Axis, these two balls are in the same category and reaction would be very similar but I feel the Scout/R is a better QUALITY ball(better made, more durable), even with the main difference being the make up of 2 pucks in the Scout and a pancake in the Axis.

However, as I interpret VT's question as being that a player who is a little slower, "average league bowler, doesn't have lots of speed or enough revs to play inside", this bowler cannot handle a "high performance ball" (which also costs more) because it may be too much hook for the individual to handle. Too much hook can cause the bowler to have to play too deep(past comfort zone), roll-out/hook-out, weak hit at the pins for covering too many boards resulting in lower scores. A mid-range performance ball may provide the proper amounts of skid,roll,hook as it enters the pins without it causing as much deflection to aid in better pin carry, therefore possibly resulting in higher scores.

This is the case when Jabroni stated that Brad Angelo threw a Power Groove(low end resin) vs something higher end and higher performing simply because it would have been overkill causing the bowler to have to alter his physical game in order to use it(throw harder/lift less). This is the same to me as using a wedge at 100 yds and not trying to choke down on a 5 iron, the 5 iron becomes overkill. For me, I can use the wedge or driver as they both travel 100 yards.

Did I pass Bones?
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Rick Leong
Ten Pins Pro Shop
Track Pro Shop Staff
Vise Grip Staff

Edited on 2/16/2004 10:16 AM

charlest · « **Reply #6 on:** February 16, 2004, 08:44:45 AM »

Bones wrote:

quote:
Rick, ... I admire your integrity when it comes to selling your customers, but even though I am a hack, if I came in your shop, I would want the highest quality ball you could put in my hands and if that ball costs more, at least I know I have the best money can by and that in itself will boost my confidence and my enjoyment in using it.
--------------------
Bones

Bones, Rick, et al.,

OK, Bones, you know I don't often get into one of your esoteric forays, but since you didn't start this one, but just "stirred the pot enough to get it boiling" ....

The "quality" of a bowling ball is an undefined term, in general, but we often speak of it as if the higher the price range (Infernos vs Monsters, Throttles vs Messengers, X-Factors vs Erasers, etc), the better the ball is. This we know is NOT true. What is true is the more the ball costs, well, better yet, the higher the manufacturer's suggested retail price, the more the more hooks, again IN GENERAL.

So, where does that leave us, or where does that leave the average, uninformed bowler. To my mind, it leaves him hanging by his or her wallet, UNLESS the pro shop operator is someone honest (but poor) like Rick and my own pro shop guy.

Yet, in 95% of the cases I see, your average league bowler is happy with the choice selected by the pro shop guy for them. They even do well with it in their leagues. And, from what I can see, because most of these people are lower rev players, they can actually get Deuces, Apexes, Throttle and Fear Factors to react well on the (what I regard as) dry-ish house shots they see on a daily basis.

I think the dichotomy comes when the higher average league bowler, say 190-205, who usually has more revs, gets the same strong balls, as the lower average, lower rev bowler. These stronger balls are less appropriate for them. These people's games are less suited to these strong balls and they should really be using the lower line, because, AGAIN, in general, these lines are lesser hooking balls and are more suitable for these bowlers on the House Shot.

The average bowler's perception of quality is, fueled by manufacturers' advertising, the more expensive balls are higher in "quality". Those of us with some experience know that the more expensive balls are higher in, not quality, but in the the "quantity" of hook. Yet, in Madison avenue "propaganda", we have been taught over the last 50+ years in America that "You get what you pay for." Bowlers have not yet seemed to learn that this is rarely the case with bowling balls.

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"Just because you can do something does not mean you should do it."

tenpinspro · « **Reply #7 on:** February 16, 2004, 09:08:02 AM »

Thank you Charlest,

This brings up another quick point.. I constantly get bowlers coming into the shop asking "What's the BEST ball out?". Then I go into action. Guys/Ladies, please don't ask that as to there is no correct answer and if your pro shop is giving you an answer, find another shop.

There may be a ball better suited for a condition vs another ball but THIS ball is NOT better then THAT ball. There's no such thing! As I've compared balls to car tires(in the friction sense), racing slicks, all season, snow tires, and chains. These four descriptions simply describe traction or different amounts of friction to be created, well, so do different bowling balls. Can you walk into a tire store and ask what the best tire there is? NO! Well, the same applies to bowling balls, an all season tire is NOT better then a snow tire, they simply create different amounts of friction/traction. This ties into what Charlest just said about "Quality", even if there were 2 balls that reacted similar but if one could hit "harder" and carry "better" then the other...then ALL the pros would have these in their hands, trust me. It just doesn't happen that way.
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Rick Leong
Ten Pins Pro Shop
Track Pro Shop Staff
Vise Grip Staff

Edited on 2/16/2004 10:09 AM

Hamburglar · « **Reply #8 on:** February 16, 2004, 11:34:11 AM »

Wow! I finally got a good discussion going on this board!!!

In the golf business, I see it all the time...mid to high handicap golfers come into the shop asking for the latest greatest driver, irons, golf balls, etc.... Some of them don't care what the cost is because they are firm believers that "if it costs more, its got to be better" and most of those same people feel that they can "buy" a better golf game. 95% of the time, the top of the line, high-tech equipment will not help "improve" their game one bit...and in lots of cases, they will do worse with this high-tech, high dollar stuff simply because it doesn't "fit" their swing/game/ability. Then, they get mad at me for selling them that "piece of junk" club.

Over the last eight or nine years, the head pro and I have really gotten into "custom club fitting". We don't like to sell our members any golf equipment unless they go through a "club fitting"...although we do have plenty of cases like the one mentioned above. More often than not those members will find that what they "want" isn't what they "need" and isn't going to "fit" their swing. After putting together an iron or driver with the proper specs and allowing that member to use/play with that club for a few rounds, they are conviced that the "high-tech/high-dollar" equipment won't improve their game but a club that "fits" their game will.

That's probably the reason why Sawbones hits his Cobra #5 iron better than the old Spaulding #5 iron, which is like comparing a Bruiser to a Black Beauty, BTW. I would almost guarantee that the Cobra has a Senior shaft (softer fles, lighter weight) which would match up better with a slower golf swing as opposed to the old Spaulding club (probably an old steel shaft, heavier and stiffer). Yes, technology does have something to do with the improvement in his game, however, the better "fit" has more to do with it.

This is what I was getting at with bowling balls...high-tech balls aren't necessarily designed for the average player even though the perception is that these balls will greatly improve their game because they are "high-tech". More times than not, a low to mid-line ball will better "fit" the average bowler's game. As with golf, the best equipment on the market is the equipment that best "fits" your game.

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That which doesn't kill you will only make you stronger, that which doesn't make you stronger is a waste of time!

Edited on 2/16/2004 12:34 PM

charlest · « **Reply #9 on:** February 16, 2004, 12:43:54 PM »

quote:
Rick, you and Charlest imply that the more costly the ball, the more it hooks. Is that really the case?

Bones, bones, bones,

I did put it, IN GENERAL in italics, implying most times, but not all the time.

quote:
What if we are talking about balls that are in the mid range of hook? Dont we build an arsenal because we want some balls that do not hook as much as others? Does that mean that my monster cost more than the next ball down in my arsenal?

Again if I came in your shop and told you I am a 185 ave league bowler, I dont think I am that shabby as a bowler. I want a ball for the THS on an early league shift.

I sincerely doubt most true 185 bowlers know enough to be that specific.

quote:
You have watched me toss a few balls so you know how you would like to set the ball up for me and you understand the condition I will be bowling on.

While I freely admit my lack of knowledge of balls, I ask you to show me what choices you feel would suit my purpose. Again, I assume there really is a difference in ball quality.

Only because Madison Avenue has brainwashed us into believing this is true.

quote:
Are you saying that the cheapest one will do just as well as the one that costs more?

In 95% of the cases, I believe this is true.

quote:
Why have I heard drillers say this ball or that ball is not very well made and at the same time say this or that ball is of good quality when they are not trying to sell me a ball. Just conversing.

Possibly because
1. They honestly believe it to be true, or
2. They know it to be true, or
3. They got it at abig discount, have it on sale and want to push it, or
4. It is true, or
5. They believe but based on incorrect knowledge or assumptions, or
6. They know you will spread the word to potential suckers and they are dishonest people.

Many potential (maybe bold is more noticeable than italics?) factors enter into this picture.

quote:
Let me compare the XXXL which is plastic to a plastic ball from KMart. I have both and I can get both of them to the pocket equally. However my carry with the XXXL far exceeds the KMart. If I did not know that from experience, I might be led by you and Charlest to be content with the Kmart special and save myself some bucks.

Would I lead you down that primrose path?
(Only if I had stock in K-Mart and you weren;t a friend!)

quote:
I suspect my comparison of the two plastic balls might be true of the other range of balls.

My analogies and comparisons are more subtle than that. The difference between those 2 plastic balls is major, as is the price.

quote:
I have never liked the idea that because one is not exceptional at a sport that lesser equipment will serve them just as well as higher end equipment.
--------------------
Bones

It depends on too many factors in bowling, not applicable to other sports, for that statement to be true or false. Many factors (like one I indicated between 185 bowler and 200 average bowler in my original reply), are involved. It is not a cut and dried, black and white issue. And therein lies the crux of the matter and why it has become to easy for those in the know, who have few ethics, to take the money of those not in the know.

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"Just because you can do something does not mean you should do it."

Edited on 2/16/2004 2:23 PM

Hamburglar · « **Reply #10 on:** February 16, 2004, 01:08:50 PM »

In regards to fitting...

Are there any bowling ball companies that actually have a "custom fitting" system?

The best "custom fitting system" in golf, in my opinion, is the Henry-Griffitts system. With that system you are able to change EVERY aspect of a golf club...head type (offset, non-offset, cavitiy back, blade), shaft material (steel or graphite), shaft flex (from ladies flex through xx-stiff), shaft length (from -2" to +2"), shaft deflection (low, mid, high), shaft weight (from ultra light weight to heavy), loft angle (-2 degrees to +2 degrees), lie angle (from 6 degrees flat to 6 degrees upright)...the club heads easily screw on and off the different shafts. Sounds complicated, but within 30 minutes and a bag of range balls, we can get a very accurate fit to your swing.

http://www.henry-griffitts.com/

That would be nice if bowling ball companies made something like this for pro shop operators...they could have all the different core/coverstock combinations in their line with interchangable finger/thumb holes and an adjustable span system built into the "test" balls. This way, a customer not only could "try before he buys" but also would be able to experience the different reactions with the different cores/coverstocks.
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That which doesn't kill you will only make you stronger, that which doesn't make you stronger is a waste of time!

tenpinspro · « **Reply #11 on:** February 16, 2004, 05:13:09 PM »

Hey Bones,

Again, in regards to your comparison of a XXXL and a kmart plastic, they're 2 different balls. Yes, they are both plastic but the XXXL has a weightblock and the KMART plastic only has a pancake. This to me is a lob wedge and a pitching wedge, there's some significant difference. Also, by just simply having a weightblock does not immediately dictate the fact that you will carry better, there is no guarantee.

The trend we've seen in our sport is that the higher costing balls do tend to hook more, this is however generalized for there are exceptions
(ie. XXXL,XXL,Dry Heat). The high cost is attributed to R&D time and possibly a new cover stock. If you see older weight blocks appear on a new ball, they'll be cheaper then a new design. So Bones, is a new ball that much better because it costs more? Bruns recycled to some degree 2 old weightblocks, tri-core(old rebel) and the Bruiser(tweaked Quantum), are these ballls less powerful or inferior to an Inferno? Would the Inferno(and it cost more) be a better fit for the bowler that VT described, I don't agree(for conversational purposes). THAT bowler in particular would probably be fine with a mid-range resin because of all his physical attributes relative to his game and would probably have a hard time throwing a big hooking ball.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I don't see a drastic difference between 2 balls in the same range with a decent weightblock. They both can and probably will suffice for what the bowler needs. Is Honda better then Toyota?
This is where I feel the question is, how can I say to a customer looking at 4 balls from 4 different companies in the same class range with their own core design, and say "This one is better then that one because it costs more?". It may have cost them more to make but it doesn't mean it's better and would hit harder. If that were the case, I'd only carry that ball because I would be able to support it 100% over any other ball. Does this make sense to you guys?
--------------------
Rick Leong
Ten Pins Pro Shop
Track Pro Shop Staff
Vise Grip Staff

tenpinspro · « **Reply #12 on:** February 17, 2004, 04:19:32 AM »

Of course Bones, we can agree on that. That's what I always try to do anyway. As you stated earlier, this is the beauty of this forum to be able to openly discuss our ideas, opinions and thoughts. As you already know how much I respect you, I just couldn't help thinking I answered VT's question. As a matter of fact, did I VT? Based on your definition of golf club purchasing, I think I did.

Oh, one more Bones..I forgot to mention QUANTUM....here's one for you. Were they worth it? If you walked in my shop and wanted a reaction, were you trying to say that a $300 Quantum in any class was better then any other ball in the same class? That's the impression I got from you..unless I'm wrong. If I didn't sell you a Quantum, was I cheating you out of a better quality ball because it was at double the price?

Quote"I would want the highest quality ball you could put in my hands and if that ball costs more, at least I know I have the best money can by and that in itself will boost my confidence and my enjoyment in using it." Quote

--------------------
Rick Leong
Ten Pins Pro Shop
Track Pro Shop Staff
Vise Grip Staff

Author Topic: "Sawbones" type questions regarding balls... (Read 1962 times)

Hamburglar

"Sawbones" type questions regarding balls...

tenpinspro

Re: "Sawbones" type questions regarding balls...

tenpinspro

Re: "Sawbones" type questions regarding balls...

bigfoot

Re: "Sawbones" type questions regarding balls...

mumzie

Re: "Sawbones" type questions regarding balls...

tenpinspro

Re: "Sawbones" type questions regarding balls...

charlest

Re: "Sawbones" type questions regarding balls...

tenpinspro

Re: "Sawbones" type questions regarding balls...

Hamburglar

Re: "Sawbones" type questions regarding balls...

charlest

Re: "Sawbones" type questions regarding balls...

Hamburglar

Re: "Sawbones" type questions regarding balls...

tenpinspro

Re: "Sawbones" type questions regarding balls...

tenpinspro

Re: "Sawbones" type questions regarding balls...