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Author Topic: Define sandbagging??  (Read 11350 times)

mainzer

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Define sandbagging??
« on: September 03, 2012, 12:54:58 AM »
Ok Opinion based question.

You are bowling a league, standard easy THS. You know you can tear them up if you use reactive gear, stand left throw right watch them fall, but you decide to use urethane for the challenge of it and what the hell something different instead of the usual. You carry a 205 with the urethane probably could have been higher if you used reactive.

You go to state the following season using your 205 average, but you bring modern gear and do well. Are you sandbagging cause you used urethane in league? Or smart, because you worked on accuarcy and spare shooting in league with the urethane ball, essentially using league time as a practice session.   

IMO you are smart, prepping for a difficult shot using means open to you. Didn't miss spares on purpose you tried every week using sub standard (compared to modern gear) equipment.

I have not done this just a random question. I do use urethane in a couples league averaged 217 with it last year. But I bowled other leagues with reactive gear.
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Russell

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Re: Define sandbagging??
« Reply #1 on: September 03, 2012, 01:01:23 AM »
I don't think so as long as the intent was not to have a lower average.  If the intent was to simply work on your game and improve then absolutely not.

By that same thought if you make a swing change mid season and struggle for a few weeks while trying to improve you would be sandbagging as well.  I think it's more about intent.
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Long Gone Daddy

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Re: Define sandbagging??
« Reply #2 on: September 03, 2012, 08:50:25 AM »
I wouldn't.  It would be no different than a guy getting back into bowling and is not aware of new ball tech and is using his old stuff than next year deciding to get more modern equipment.  So many scenarios can bring this question into play.  It's like Supreme Court Justice said of porn in the the 70's where he said he can't define it but "I know it when I see it".  We all know what sandbagging is and looks like.  Is having your team in league break down the pattern during practice considered cheating?  I don't think so but I'm sure the "bowling police" on here will chime in soon.   
« Last Edit: September 03, 2012, 08:56:16 AM by Long Gone Daddy »
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Mainzer

Spider Man

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Re: Define sandbagging??
« Reply #3 on: September 03, 2012, 09:22:21 AM »
no, that's not bagging. missing spares and throwing in the gutter on purpose is my idea of that. some people can only use urethane on a THS.
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scotts33

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Re: Define sandbagging??
« Reply #4 on: September 03, 2012, 09:50:26 AM »
My definition.  Any time you don't try and score the best you can. 
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Scott

Rightycomplex

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Re: Define sandbagging??
« Reply #5 on: September 03, 2012, 10:29:47 AM »
When you dont go onto the lanes and attempt to score with the best you can with what you have in your hands. If you so decide to pull out urethane and throw it, that's your business. But when you intentionally try not to score, throwing balls off the back of the approach, avg dropping 20+ sticks with no real change in environment or equipment, thats sandbagging.
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bass

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Re: Define sandbagging??
« Reply #6 on: September 03, 2012, 10:55:34 AM »
Averaging 225 @ T&O.

Sandbagging or not?
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scotts33

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Re: Define sandbagging??
« Reply #7 on: September 03, 2012, 11:17:59 AM »
Quote from: bass on September 03, 2012, 10:55:34 AM
Averaging 225 @ T&O.

Sandbagging or not?


Left side or right side?   :)

BTW Mike you never sand bag! 

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Scott

Steven

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Re: Define sandbagging??
« Reply #8 on: September 03, 2012, 12:04:10 PM »
Quote from: scotts33 on September 03, 2012, 09:50:26 AM
My definition.  Any time you don't try and score the best you can.


I agree with Scott on this one.


Using the Urethane for the whole season in league and averaging 205, by itself, was not sandbagging.


But that 205 does not reflect the true ability of that bowler when he takes that average to a tournament and pulls out his heavy weight equipment. The bottom line is that it's sandbagging to use the Urethane average in a tournament, unless you're going to use Urethane there too.
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Spider Man

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Re: Define sandbagging??
« Reply #9 on: September 03, 2012, 12:46:59 PM »
Steven, I would agree but how would anyone know? Two years ago, I bowled in a city handicap doubles tournament. A few rounds into match play, I faced a team that had one "scratch" bowler and one "poor" bowler. I say poor b/c the cat had a 150 on the sheet. But in practice, his partner made no bones that his partner, who had no book avg the prior yr, had just gotten a new ball - and fitted to boot! Seems Mr. 150 had been using a house ball to establish an avg for the current year. That set the tone, as we were easily beat.

Back to the urethane, it would depend on conditions, I suppose. If tournament X had a tougher pattern than the given "scorable" THS league, it would be tough to call someone a bagger who pulled out a resin ball. That said, I'd hope the tournament director would go back more than one year on book averages, to see what this guy is capable of. If the averages were skewed, the director should make him use a higher average - or face the wrath of other honest bowlers.





Quote from: Steven on September 03, 2012, 12:04:10 PM
Quote from: scotts33 on September 03, 2012, 09:50:26 AM
My definition.  Any time you don't try and score the best you can.


I agree with Scott on this one.


Using the Urethane for the whole season in league and averaging 205, by itself, was not sandbagging.


But that 205 does not reflect the true ability of that bowler when he takes that average to a tournament and pulls out his heavy weight equipment. The bottom line is that it's sandbagging to use the Urethane average in a tournament, unless you're going to use Urethane there too.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2012, 12:49:13 PM by Spider Man »
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BigHorhn

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Re: Define sandbagging??
« Reply #10 on: September 03, 2012, 01:32:58 PM »
I think its sandbagging, just a honest way of doing it. Use your best equipment and give your best effort in league, you can practice with urethane.
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charlest

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Re: Define sandbagging??
« Reply #11 on: September 03, 2012, 02:31:19 PM »
Quote from: BigHorhn on September 03, 2012, 01:32:58 PM
I think its sandbagging, just a honest way of doing it. Use your best equipment and give your best effort in league, you can practice with urethane.

An "honest way of sandbagging"?
How can there be such a thing?
It's equivalent to saying an "honest way of cheating" because that's what we're discussing here.

Is that the same as saying, "situational ethics"?

In a handicap league, I wouldn't consider using a urethane instead of a resin ball as sandbagging, if the guy honestly tries as hard as he can to score as well as he can for himself and his teammates. (In a scratch league, I doubt someone would use a urethane unless it was the best ball for the condition.) His total, average + handicap, is not likely to be a huge difference for the team or in match to match points.
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bass

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Re: Define sandbagging??
« Reply #12 on: September 03, 2012, 02:42:51 PM »
Either side Scott.
Just gotta survive the 1st 5 or 6 weeks of hell down there.
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Steven

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Re: Define sandbagging??
« Reply #13 on: September 03, 2012, 03:02:55 PM »
Quote from: Spider Man on September 03, 2012, 12:46:59 PM

Steven, I would agree but how would anyone know? Two years ago, I bowled in a city handicap doubles tournament. A few rounds into match play, I faced a team that had one "scratch" bowler and one "poor" bowler. I say poor b/c the cat had a 150 on the sheet. But in practice, his partner made no bones that his partner, who had no book avg the prior yr, had just gotten a new ball - and fitted to boot! Seems Mr. 150 had been using a house ball to establish an avg for the current year. That set the tone, as we were easily beat.



Spider, nobody would know except the entering bowler performing the dirty deed. That's where integrity and 'doing the right thing' comes into play. You know if your average is real or artificially low. Who really wants to win knowing deep down that they've cheated?  I know you wouldn't. Neither would I. 
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scotts33

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Re: Define sandbagging??
« Reply #14 on: September 03, 2012, 03:10:20 PM »
Quote from: bass on September 03, 2012, 02:42:51 PM
Either side Scott.
Just gotta survive the 1st 5 or 6 weeks of hell down there.

Those above ground ball returns make playing inside kinda rough.  What do you use before Thanksgiving a 900G Hook?
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Scott
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