Author Topic: Destroying a lane (Read 6888 times)

Pinbuster · « **on:** December 05, 2011, 01:57:04 AM »

On the PBA show they implied that Mika had used the practice period, not to improve his shot, but to disrupt the shot of the other players by throwing sanded balls and plastic to try and move oil around.

I find this repugnant.

If I didn't think I could out execute my opponent then I would just as soon lose.

What would someone would think if I was bowling a left handed bowlers and would put a towel on my chest and do a Machuga flop down the leftside of the lane during practice and soak up all the oil for the first 15 feet?

They really shouldn't allow practice on the TV lanes or at the very least re-oil after practice is complete.

Pinbuster · « **Reply #16 on:** December 05, 2011, 01:06:13 PM »

I don't have a problem at nationals (sport shot play), that is part of team play, and part of the game today whether you like that part of the game or not.

But the impression was not that he was building a shot for himself but simply trying to wreck the other guys shot.

tommygn · « **Reply #17 on:** December 05, 2011, 01:27:46 PM »

I am trying to figure out what you are saying here. In the first paragraph, you say that you will try to alter the shot, play mind games, do what ever is necessary to win money. You then repeat that in the second paragraph as well.

But yet your last paragraph, you say when money is on the line, you are only thinking about what you have to do, and you can only control yourself and what you do. So which is it, are you worried about playing mind games and disrupting your oppent to win, or are you focused on the brutal condition and controlling only what you do??

Good Times Good Times wrote on 12/5/2011 11:23 AM:"If I didn't think I could out execute my opponent then I would just as soon lose."

You are EXACTLY who I'd want to bowl in matchplay with money on the line. If something like that would affect you mentally, i'd hope to get a read on that and do it just for the idea of doing it, but i'd tell you "i'm trying to break them down" or some BS line. Call me a dick but you CAN'T call me a rule breaker. I can live with being a dick, but I AM NOT a cheater.

Look, money's on the line and i'm going to do whatever physically I have to on the lanes or psychologically to disrupt you and win, if it's as easy as throwing a moon rock or plastic, i'd do it. Again, ONLY to those who allow it to disrupt their mental game.

When the focus isn't 100% on shot making, you dont have the advantage. When i'm bowling you ESPECIALLY with $$ on the line AND brutal conditions, i'm thinking about what I have to do. I can only control myself and what I do.

GetOffMe10Pin
"America was established not to create wealth but to realize a vision, to realize an ideal - to discover and maintain liberty among men." - Woodrow Wilson

ToiletLogCore · « **Reply #18 on:** December 05, 2011, 01:28:51 PM »

"If I didn't think I could out execute my opponent then I would just as soon lose."

With this thought process I would bet everything I own that you don't or have ever bowled a tournament... you're local 9-pin tap doesn't count.

You've just been handed a little TLC

completebowler · « **Reply #19 on:** December 05, 2011, 01:38:25 PM »

This has been going on for a long time. If Mika messed up a portion of the lane then it is up to his opponent to adjust to another part of the lane. Loschetter did it to Voss years ago on TV. WRW3 does it all the time by throwing plastic at 10 pins during practice. Think he needs to practice 10 pins?

Every oil pattern is going to play better for one bowler vs. another to some degree. As the pattern changes it is up to the guys to adjust. If Mika is trying to accelerate the pattern getting moved around that is his option.

There really isn't a clear way to "fix" this. So it is best to leave it as is. For every fix you present I can tell you there are big problems with it. Oh, and btw, the PBA has lots of bigger issues to fix than this and have yet to find any real lasting solutions.

Here is a good radio interview from the PBA commish on this topic and more.

ALL STAR BOWLING & TROPHY
LANGAN'S ALL STAR LANES
IBPSIA MEMBER
WALLED LAKE MI

All Star Bowling & Trophy

Edited by completebowler on 12/5/2011 at 2:41 PM

qstick777 · « **Reply #20 on:** December 05, 2011, 01:44:02 PM »

This discussion has me curious:

How many people that are claiming it is important and ethical to work together to break down a lane to enable "large scores" are the same that accuse the center owners and "lack" of oil for killing bowling and enabling all these ridiculously high scores?

Aren't they really the same? One is a shot that is laid down with the intent of being very forgiving and to give the highest chance of bowlers shooting high scores. The other is one (or more) bowler(s) using equipment to manipulate a tough pattern in order to give them a more forgiving shot and greater ability to shoot high scores.

scotts33 · « **Reply #21 on:** December 05, 2011, 01:56:51 PM »

Evidently the PBA is considering doing something about this.

Can You Play Defense in Bowling? Read between the lines when listening to Tom Clark PBA commissioner.

Scott

Good Times Good Times · « **Reply #22 on:** December 05, 2011, 02:02:33 PM »

I guess it would depend on who I was bowling. If there's an opportunity to exploit an opponents weakness i'd do it. Lets say a bowler isn't versatile and can only play straight up 5-10 but can't get inside, if I have an opportunity to force him out of that zone in practice (assuming i'm lined up and have a great look), the ONLY zone he can play, i'll give it a shot.

Frame 1 of the actual game for score, you can bet i'm going do focus only on myself.

"So which is it, are you worried about playing mind games and disrupting your oppent to win, or are you focused on the brutal condition and controlling only what you do??"

I should have noted that when the lights come on and it's game time, what the other person is doing is irrelevant. But in a practice session if I can exploit a weakness in my opponents game or force them to their B game, i'd do it. ESPECIALLY with $$ on the line.

tommygn wrote on 12/5/2011 2:27 PM:
I am trying to figure out what you are saying here. In the first paragraph, you say that you will try to alter the shot, play mind games, do what ever is necessary to win money. You then repeat that in the second paragraph as well.

But yet your last paragraph, you say when money is on the line, you are only thinking about what you have to do, and you can only control yourself and what you do. So which is it, are you worried about playing mind games and disrupting your oppent to win, or are you focused on the brutal condition and controlling only what you do??

Good Times Good Times wrote on 12/5/2011 11:23 AM:
"If I didn't think I could out execute my opponent then I would just as soon lose."

You are EXACTLY who I'd want to bowl in matchplay with money on the line. If something like that would affect you mentally, i'd hope to get a read on that and do it just for the idea of doing it, but i'd tell you "i'm trying to break them down" or some BS line. Call me a dick but you CAN'T call me a rule breaker. I can live with being a dick, but I AM NOT a cheater.

Look, money's on the line and i'm going to do whatever physically I have to on the lanes or psychologically to disrupt you and win, if it's as easy as throwing a moon rock or plastic, i'd do it. Again, ONLY to those who allow it to disrupt their mental game.

When the focus isn't 100% on shot making, you dont have the advantage. When i'm bowling you ESPECIALLY with $$ on the line AND brutal conditions, i'm thinking about what I have to do. I can only control myself and what I do.

GetOffMe10Pin
"America was established not to create wealth but to realize a vision, to realize an ideal - to discover and maintain liberty among men." - Woodrow Wilson

GetOffMe10Pin

"America was established not to create wealth but to realize a vision, to realize an ideal - to discover and maintain liberty among men." - Woodrow Wilson

completebowler · « **Reply #23 on:** December 05, 2011, 02:09:34 PM »

Kind of ironic isn't it? I was talking with a guy last Wednesday after our league about the issues in todays game. He is the son of a pretty decent former tour player and has been around the game his whole life like I have. The consensus we settled on is that the balls hit the pins harder and at a higher degree of entry angle than ever before.

That said, everyone wants to keep talking about oil patterns. It doesn't make sense to me because the oil is 1) easy for center owners AND bowlers to manipulate and 2) it isn't a constant variable. Yes easier patterns can create more miss room, but IMO that miss room also wouldn't be as large if the balls weren't as strong or the pins were heavier.

Being a shop operator I love the "geek" element of ball technology. So I have long been a proponent of the heavier pins. But as long as we continue to talk about oil patterns then the bigger issues with the game won't change. I don't want to see the ball technology stifled and reality is it wouldn't be...companies would just change what technology they are looking into.

Not sure if my idea would help things but I would love to see them mandate 43' of oil and 5 lbs. pins. None of this ratio b.s. because as we see on TV and go through every league night the oil is very easy to manipulate especially at the front of the pattern.

I would at least like to see USBC and the PBA do a joint study to see what the shortcomings of this change would be.

qstick777 wrote on 12/5/2011 2:44 PM:
This discussion has me curious:

How many people that are claiming it is important and ethical to work together to break down a lane to enable "large scores" are the same that accuse the center owners and "lack" of oil for killing bowling and enabling all these ridiculously high scores?

Aren't they really the same? One is a shot that is laid down with the intent of being very forgiving and to give the highest chance of bowlers shooting high scores. The other is one (or more) bowler(s) using equipment to manipulate a tough pattern in order to give them a more forgiving shot and greater ability to shoot high scores.

ALL STAR BOWLING & TROPHY
LANGAN'S ALL STAR LANES
IBPSIA MEMBER
WALLED LAKE MI

All Star Bowling & Trophy

charlest · « **Reply #24 on:** December 05, 2011, 02:15:41 PM »

Completebowler,

I don't think you even need to go to heavy pins. Remember there are currently 2 hollows inside pins, one quite near the bottom, which make them much easier to knock down - recall the 7 degree rule often stated by Nelson Burton Jr. on the old TV show. 4 lb. pins without that hollow or even both hollows would be much harder to make fall. 5 lb pins require a remake of all the pin setter machines. We had a set several years back in a special tournament and the pin setters were constantly dropping them - they were too heavy.

"None are so blind as those who will not see."

BowlingChat.net

charlest · « **Reply #25 on:** December 05, 2011, 02:21:28 PM »

People here seem to forget or never knew the difference between what's right (ethical) and what's legal (licit: following the laws and rules). Many politicians never pass laws that restrict what they should and should not do. They won't because they want to continue to do what's legal, even if it isn't ethical or moral.

You can force people to be ethical or moral, but just because it's not illegal does not mean it's ethical or moral. Ever hear of "Doing the Right Thing"?

?

Rules NEVER, EVER force you to do what's unethical. You choose to do what's right or what's wrong. If you do what's wrong just because it's NOT illegal in bowling, where is your conscious when it comes something really important.

"None are so blind as those who will not see."

BowlingChat.net

Good Times Good Times · « **Reply #26 on:** December 05, 2011, 02:30:40 PM »

Charlest, I've heard of "doing the right thing", and doing the right thing is what it takes to win, within the rules. Isn't that the point of entering the competition?

At the end of the day, if you're a one dimensional bowler and I blow your line up, my conscious is fine with it. Perhaps that makes me a jerk, again, i'll accept that, from YOUR perspective. But when I lay my head down that night, i'm going to know I legally won and that's the only measurement I personally use. Why should I feel "bad"?

If you have a look and I do too, if you do or do not use the practice time to "do me in" or blow my line up, I wouldn't expect you to feel bad. Since when did I have an inherent RIGHT to a "look"?

On edit, this to me is comparable to the "check / raise" play in no limit holdem with malicious intentions.. Is that "ethical"?

I'd NEVER want anyone to ALLOW me to have a part of a lane b/c they feel some sort of moral or ethical OBLIGATION.

charlest wrote on 12/5/2011 3:21 PM:
People here seem to forget or never knew the difference between what's right (ethical) and what's legal (licit: following the laws and rules). Many politicians never pass laws that restrict what they should and should not do. They won't because they want to continue to do what's legal, even if it isn't ethical or moral.

You can force people to be ethical or moral, but just because it's not illegal does not mean it's ethical or moral. Ever hear of "Doing the Right Thing"??

Rules NEVER, EVER force you to do what's unethical. You choose to do what's right or what's wrong. If you do what's wrong just because it's NOT illegal in bowling, where is your conscious when it comes something really important.

"None are so blind as those who will not see."

BowlingChat.net

GetOffMe10Pin

"America was established not to create wealth but to realize a vision, to realize an ideal - to discover and maintain liberty among men." - Woodrow Wilson

Edited by Good Times Good Times on 12/5/2011 at 3:41 PM

completebowler · « **Reply #27 on:** December 05, 2011, 02:42:15 PM »

Very true. You can also put flatter bottoms on them.

charlest wrote on 12/5/2011 3:15 PM:
Completebowler,

I don't think you even need to go to heavy pins. Remember there are currently 2 hollows inside pins, one quite near the bottom, which make them much easier to knock down - recall the 7 degree rule often stated by Nelson Burton Jr. on the old TV show. 4 lb. pins without that hollow or even both hollows would be much harder to make fall. 5 lb pins require a remake of all the pin setter machines. We had a set several years back in a special tournament and the pin setters were constantly dropping them - they were too heavy.

"None are so blind as those who will not see."

BowlingChat.net

ALL STAR BOWLING & TROPHY
LANGAN'S ALL STAR LANES
IBPSIA MEMBER
WALLED LAKE MI

All Star Bowling & Trophy

spmcgivern · « **Reply #28 on:** December 05, 2011, 02:48:14 PM »

So what is the extent of what one will or won't do in competition? Some here are saying blowing up a shot is fine but I bet some of those same bowlers are also saying crinkling a water bottle is over the line.

I used to bowl collegiately and remember a tournament when the fans and family of one school had inflatable clappers. Every time a member of their team got a strike or spare they would bang their clappers. In a one-on-one environment this wouldn't have been a big deal. But to do it during qualifying was definitely immoral in my opinion. But it wasn't illegal according to the tournament rules.

There are many things that can be done to affect your opponent in one-on-one competition. Some are physical like altering their shot while some may be mental like loud boisterous responses to good shots or running out shots. But in the end, the Golden Rule should apply.

I am not a pro-bowler, but I do play one on BallReviews.com

Good Times Good Times · « **Reply #29 on:** December 05, 2011, 02:54:33 PM »

I'd love to see how this would be legislated in words.

scotts33 wrote on 12/5/2011 2:56 PM:
Evidently the PBA is considering doing something about this.

Can You Play Defense in Bowling? Read between the lines when listening to Tom Clark PBA commissioner.

Scott

GetOffMe10Pin

"America was established not to create wealth but to realize a vision, to realize an ideal - to discover and maintain liberty among men." - Woodrow Wilson

northface28 · « **Reply #30 on:** December 05, 2011, 03:16:11 PM »

This only works when you get a group of guys who KNOW what theyre doing, not guys who THINK they know what theyre doing. Cause I tell you this, 75%+ of guys at nationals THINK theyre hitting 1st arrow when in actuality they are hitting 10 or 12.

The end result? A self made wet/dry nightmare.

Impending Doom wrote on 12/5/2011 1:45 PM: Do these same ethics apply when a team tries to break down a pair at Nationals? I know guys that go in with a practice game plan just to burn up first arrow. You don't see this on a ths, because you don't need to blow a hole in the pattern.

As stated earlier. Is it illegal? No. Usbc hasn't made any ruling to the limits of surface prep before competition. Neither has the PBA. Is it a dick move on whomevers part is doing it? I guess that depends on what point of view you're looking at it from. The guy who is shimwrecking the pair, or the guy who has a blueprint of the pair and is dialed in.

You say potateo, I say potahto. _

*Inventor of the FIBJAM*

The sky is falling
The end is near
The final warning
The sun disappears.

*˙ǝɟıן ɹnoʎ ɟo spuoɔǝs ǝʌıɟ ʇsoן ʇsnɾ ǝʌɐɥ noʎ ʇɐɥʇ ʎɐs oʇ ʎɹɹos ɯɐ ı sıɥʇ pɐǝɹ noʎ ɟı

Author Topic: Destroying a lane (Read 6888 times)

Pinbuster

Destroying a lane

Pinbuster

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tommygn

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ToiletLogCore

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completebowler

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qstick777

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scotts33

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Good Times Good Times

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completebowler

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charlest

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charlest

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Good Times Good Times

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completebowler

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spmcgivern

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Good Times Good Times

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northface28

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