BallReviews
General Category => Miscellaneous => Topic started by: Mongo on April 27, 2014, 11:35:38 AM
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I'll be honest, this is probably one of the bigger holes in my game. It's pretty specific situation, but early in tournaments with heavier volumes and iffy surfaces, I get in spots where it's hard for me to tell the difference.
Case in point, I bowling in a tournament this weekend that was a higher volume/longer pattern (44 ft.) and the ball never seemed to pick up anything. On the fresh, I started with a Reax (45 x 3 1/4 x 30), and played it pretty straight. It was on old wood, so I new there had to be some sort of friction, but the ball never slowed down or made any real motion. I watched the ball's rotation and flare as it went down the lane looking for something. I saw the flare transition, but there was zero motion. I was playing dead straight...acutally, I pointing it a hair (laydown 5, looking 8-9, breakpoint 9-10), so I figured there would be some sort of movement. Nope. I could get the ball to hit OK, but I was pretty much piping it to the hole.
Later in the set, as a goof, I pulled out a shiny Diva (45 x 4 x 65) played the same line and actually got a wrinkle down lane, not much mind you, but enough to tell me that the Reax was burning up and not skidding 60 feet. Later on, my inability to identify the surface reaction was really exposed when I saw a couple of guys throwing IQ Tour Pearls and getting a hair of recovery and picking up just a touch of area in a spot where I had to throw it perfect.
That being said, I realized I'm missing something and have been for some time. I'll be honest that I've been slow to adjust to lane play moving from the front to the back, but it was exploited this weekend. Now, I can see it better in spots where there is some defined friction and feel pretty confident as they get toasty, but in early/fresh squads, I'm missing something.
So, as I've blabbed on, I guess my question is this. What ball motion/rotational transition (if it's not moving) should I look for on fresher conditions to detect energy loss?
Not sure how well worded this is, but I'd like to start up a conversation and will be more that happy to explain what I'm talking about. If I'm going to try to start really competing, this is a big leak in my game and I'm going to have to figure it out.
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I can see your layouts causing issues with them being too strong...too much flare too early causing over flaring which can cause what your seeing as well
The ball may be slowing down ok but too much flare can cause the ball to transition too quickly or flaring out...
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I can see your layouts causing issues with them being too strong...too much flare too early causing over flaring which can cause what your seeing as well
The ball may be slowing down ok but too much flare can cause the ball to transition too quickly or flaring out...
I get what you're saying, but on a high volume 44 ft. pattern, I figure you need something stronger.
What I'm missing is that I'm looking for some sort motion, but not seeing it. Even if I am throwing strong, I'm looking for a wrinkle of hook, ball slowing down, ball reaching it's PSA, something.
I feel like I know what to look for, but in this situation, I get stuck throwing stuff way too strong.
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Nope not always...the ball can lose it's rotational integrity so early and quickly you don't realize it
Surface is what slows the ball down, then the core has a chance to effect the reaction but if you combine too much surface and too much flare the lane becomes too long or flares/rolls out
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Nope not always...the ball can lose it's rotational integrity so early and quickly you don't realize it
Surface is what slows the ball down, then the core has a chance to effect the reaction but if you combine too much surface and too much flare the lane becomes too long or flares/rolls out
So, what you're saying is that if I'm bowling on something slicker and just watch the ball go 60 feet, I can see that as either an absolute flood or the ball burns out at 20 feet. Correct?
If that's the case, since it's not something you can see, do you go with a weaker surface and/or drill, play the same area and see what happens?
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Not going to lie, this feel like lane reading 101. I should know this, but it's one of "those spots" that I get hung up on.
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You bowling on old wood which is an earlier friction surface thus the ball was more than likely burning up but in the same sense it doesn't sound like, due to the condition laid out you could create a lot of room or reaction
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Great topic... I have the exact problem. If I may say so, I don't think the answers you're getting are to the question you have posed. The question is not why you're having the problem, the question is how do you tell the difference between the two potential causes. I just came back from a practice session where I had the exact same issue, so this is fresh in my mind at the moment. I have to say that I run into this same issue time after time and I can't tell the answer either. The only thing I have been able to figure out is that if I take a weaker ball and I get a better reaction, my oil ball is burning up, whereas if the problem is really oil, the weaker ball will by default also slide. If the weaker ball fails to react, then I can advance to the next level of finding out how to get the oil ball to react more appropriately. However, until you know and can recognize which condition you're facing, you will be at a disadvantage as I feel I am.
For example, this morning at practice, I was throwing three identically cleaned balls with identical surface and similar, although I admit not equal, layouts. I truly believe, for purposes of this discussion, the layouts were close enough to not be materially significant to the discussion...)
I started throwing a AMF Darkness followed by a Brunswick Maxxed Out, both of which looked weak, yet when I pulled out my Torrid Affair I got an increased reaction and stronger pin action. Therefore, I assumed that even though I was seeing substantial oil rings on all the balls, the Torrid Affair (although good) was not stronger than the other two balls and they must have been burning out.
Great question, I look forward to reading further discussion. I have much to learn in this area also.
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I bowl in three houses, all with wood lanes. I have often found it helpful to look at how much oil is coming back on the ball. I have a benchmark ball that I used for this purpose for a while (pearls generally don't work very well). I would throw it once or twice in practice. Even on freshly oiled lanes it would tell me there was less/more out there just by how solid the streaks on the bow tie flare lines were.
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I'll go into a little more detail.
My normal specs - 17-18 MPH, 325-350 RPM, axis tilt 17, rotation 45 (but can tone down to 30)
The tournament was a one day deal. 44 ft., high volume, 2:1 ratio, on old wood...and when I say old wood, I mean, there are visible patches in the heads.
On Friday night, there was a sweeper where they ran the tournament pattern over top of the league shot. That was fun. I threw straight up 10 with a Reax (1500, 45 x 3 1/4 x 30) and could hit the 2 pin (LH) square in the face. Anything out stayed there. I ended up pointing it, cutting the speed down to 15.5-16 MPH and just tried to pipe it up the lane.
Toward the end of the set, I saw some guys getting a pinch of reaction out of shiny stuff/pearls, so I pulled out my Diva (shiny, 45 x 4 x 65...pin under ring, CG out) and got an inkling of motion. Just prior to that I'm still seeing nice big oil rings on my Reax, but I was actually trying to go more direct and go up the back to try to pick up some push inside. Lo and behold my first shot I leak, but get a little hand in and get some reaction (by reaction I mean there was some lateral movement). Mind blown. Some of the guys I traveled with said thay thought that I might be getting some burnout, but I was scoring OK (570...enough to profit in brakets) and left it alone.
OK, so the next day, fresh, stripped backends. I bowl A squad because a) I need what backends are there b) I'm pretty sure the righties will blow a hole in the track by the B squad and this is a tough shot. I start out with the Diva and have basically the same reaction. My other options are a Brutal Nightmare (box finish, 45 x 5 x 50)which goes longer than the Diva, but just doesn't quite get there) and a 1500 Marauder Madness which i figure will burn up, too.
I bowl OK, but can't make a spare. Then I see a lefty 2 pairs down from me hooking an IQ Tour Pearl. Now, he's probably at 14-14.5 MPH, but he's getting actual hook playing up 5 (I got ZERO there) and creating some hold, too.
So, on building on the OP, I would never in a million years have ever considered a pearl on this. Wood or not, 44 ft and high volume I figure that's a good idea for shooting the corners. When I see that Reax go 60 feet and never really do anything but spin and flare, I just don't see the friction.
How do I get past this or is this one of those times you just make an educated guess? My physical game is better than it should be coming off a long layoff, but I've got some real work to do on my equipment choices and moves.
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As I stated before if your rev rate is that high your layouts are TOO strong...the ball is flaring out which in turn creates am earlier than desired reaction (usually not visual) and can also create or mirror a carry down reaction...
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As I stated before if your rev rate is that high your layouts are TOO strong...the ball is flaring out which in turn creates am earlier than desired reaction (usually not visual) and can also create or mirror a carry down reaction...
Funny thing is that I when i got the Reax, I posted some suggested layouts for this very condition and that's what Mo suggested.
It rolls great on house shots, but I'll have to reevaluate on touranment patterns. Surface change may be in order.....or just throw it on house shot.
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House shots EVERYTHING tend to roll good due to a build up of conditioner in the middle and friction outside therefore 'flaws' will show up differently
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House shots EVERYTHING tend to roll good due to a build up of conditioner in the middle and friction outside therefore 'flaws' will show up differently
Shhhhhh. My 220 looks really good there. :)
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In addition to what Rico said, if the pattern is 44 ft. long you may be expecting to see more reaction than you actually will. When you get used to seeing the ball boom back from the dry outside and then you bowl on something like this you need to have a different perspective on how much reaction you will see. Watching somebody else's ball is a much different visual than watching your own.
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Normal 44' condition it takes the ball approx 5' to properly exit the conditioner thus making the 'hook' or reaction area just over 10'...not a lot of 'boom' room
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Normal 44' condition it takes the ball approx 5' to properly exit the conditioner thus making the 'hook' or reaction area just over 10'...not a lot of 'boom' room
You should have seen what it turned into by the step ladder finals. 2 qualifying squads, 1 3 game squad to get to cashers, 2 game squad to get to step ladder.
Off topic, but there was a guy with a decent amount of hand who had some voodoo roll throwing a Hyper Cell right in the heart of the dry. It was impressive. Got it to hit, too.
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just throwing a couple of thoughts out there. The Reax being an all black ball might make it harder to see how your ball is rotating, thus harder to see a ball burning up early. Also I would suggest slowing your ball speed down a couple mph to match your rev rate, if you weren't already. At your normal speed and somewhat low revs, your not giving the equipment enough time to read on that longer pattern.
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If you were really pointing the ball, it was not burning. While it can be hard to tell sometimes, a ball that burns will make a small early move. At 44 feet, the best way to play a shot is to square up and don't try to over power a condition that is not going to move a lot.
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I posted this over at bowlingchat (Mo's board) and got a very nice reply I thought I'd share.
First of all you ball isn't burning up but not transitioning properly.
The following should help you understand this better.
1) A 44 foot tournament pattern usually doesn’t have free friction to your left as does the THS.
2) Outside of ten is usually unplayable on most 44 foot tournament patterns.
3) You can only play what / where the lane pattern gives up, but trying to play in the wrong part of the lane sends us home early.
4) Lane play strategy # 1 has always been if your ball is not hooking enough move left (in your case), ball hooking too much move right. Again, okay for the THS not for competitive tournament play.
5) This strategy works because THS are played right to left (in your case) and the free friction on the outside portion of the lane helps the ball slow down and give us a chance of obtaining proper ball motion.
6) The rule of 31 will give you an approximate area to look at down lane during competitive tournaments. In this case 44 minus 31 equals 13.
7) Therefore, I would suggest on that pattern you start by playing straight up 12-13 and evaluate your ball reaction.
8) If the ball isn’t facing up to the pocket and hitting hard enough, then you probably need to add more surface to the ball to help it slow down sooner and face up to the pocket better on the back end.
9) You should be using your practice time to make these adjustments. Keep a burgundy scotch bright pad in your back pocket for this purpose at all times.
10) As you state in your bio, that you prefer to play straighter angles when possible. Straighter to me doesn’t mean angling the ball at the pocket when the lanes are playing slicker, it means moving in and
getting my ball closer to the pocket when it changes direction. If my ball is only hooking 5 boards, on its path down the lane to the pocket it better not ever get further from the pocket then the 12 board.
11) On the other hand on short competitive patterns, my ball never gets inside the 5 board until it leaves the pattern.
12) Ball motion for me as an observer (coach) constitutes two points. Where the ball hits the lane and its location as it changes direction down lane.
13) Being observant of those who are having success on a tournament pattern will tell you where the ball needs to be as it changes direction, where the lane down point needs to be to bowler and equipment dependent.
14) By bowler dependent I mean that your rev rate, axis tilt, axis rotation, ball speed and ball of choice will determine your target up front.
15) A bowler who understands these principles and has your stats shouldn’t be having problems matching up to any tournament condition. Doesn't mean you will win then all, but you should be competitive.
16) The one glaring item that stands out to me in your listed stats is the 30 degrees of axis rotation. Usually, bowlers who utilize wrist cup and maintain it through the release struggle with lower axis
rotation.
Long post but trying to give you more insight to proper lane play.
I suggest you make a copy of the following, keep it in your wallet and pull it out every time you are struggling until you have it burned in your memory.
The dominant characteristic of ball motion is when and where the ball loses ball speed during it’s path down the lanne.
...by master lane play guru……Mo Pinel
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All valid points
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There are several things that may help you out. One is when you talk about motion, things are probably blurred from what is happening. A lower ball will look like it is out-hooking a higher-end ball, when in reality it isn't. On a longer or harder shot, the motion you are looking for is more front to back instead of side to side which seems to be what you are trying to create. Your Reax was probably actually hooking more than the Diva, since it was rolling more through the entire lane. You are looking for a ball to generally rolling towards the pocket instead going sideways to it. A good visual is to look at a player like Chris Barnes who is very rolly and how his ball shapes up.
There are three ways I tell if my ball is burning up or not. One is if my ball is left of where it should be at the arrows or where ever I am looking. You cannot see the first 15 feet or so as has been stated. If it is already in its rolling face from early friction, you will feel like you need to either throw it way out or speed up a lot. Another one is the shape it makes on the lane and this is where knowing your equipment well and what your releases do to that ball. I know if I throw my Totally Defiant and it goes directly forward instead of hooking before going forward, then I know it is burning up. This is normally easier to see in asymmetric to learn what to look for. Another way is how it goes through the pins. Both a ball that has fully rolled out or still in the skid or hook face will both deflect, but they seem to deflect differently for me. An the pins you will leave. A ball not slowing down a lot will leave a lot of 2 pin combos(3 pin combos for you) and a ball burning up will leave a lot of corner pins.
I hope this helps. Never be afraid to use surface either. On a harder shot, it is better to have more surface than less. It is a lot easier to make a ball get through the heads a bit more than to slow down over the entire lane.
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I'd like to get an opinion about this as well. Apparently I really can't see the difference either.
#1
Our last night or PBA league (last year's Scorpion - 41', not sure why we didn't get the newer 47' version) and I want to throw my (red/black) Nexxus because I really haven't thrown it much since I got it (mostly because the original driller missed the span enough so that I had a hard time throwing it consistently). We were locked into our position, so scores really didn't matter.
Threw my Wicked Siege (3000 abralon, pics in profile) a few shots to get a feel for the pattern. I usually throw around 15 out to 7 or 5 out to 2 on this pattern. The gutter is often a viable option at this house. The WS hooks strong inside but seems to skid too far by the gutter leaving 2 pin combinations.
Towards the end of practice and the beginning of scoring I switch to the Nexxus, starting with the gutter. I leave 3 consecutive 2 pin combinations with the ball seemingly reading the pattern too late. The color pattern of the Nexxus makes it easy to see how the ball is revving. Figured maybe it's too slick outside so I move inside (a few boards left of where I was throwing the WS). Pretty much the same effect. The Nexxus "skids" too far down lane and leaves a 2-4-5. Tried another shot with a stronger hand position and got pretty much the same result. Switched back to the WS and still had a good look, so I put the Nexxus away for the night.
The two balls are drilled very similar and the Nexxus has a stronger cover and more surface (1000 abralon), so the Nexxus should definitely handle more oil. I even did a hot water bucket soak afterwards to make sure it wasn't oil logged (it wasn't). So obviously the Nexxus must have flared out too early or ran out of energy so early that I couldn't tell. Watching the ball rev up down lane I would have guessed the conditions were too slick for the ball.
#2
I'm bowling a tournament tomorrow and they are putting out the brand new Viper (39') pattern. It's never been used at the house before so they put it out this morning for practice. I brought a variety of equipment to try. I had a good reaction with both my Wicked Siege and Loaded Revolver. Throwing 13 out to 8 or 9 out to 6 depending on the ball and release. When I tried to move in a few boards with a Black Widow Bite, the ball just (seemed to ) skid down lane before smacking the 3 pin in the face. Moved in a few more boards with a stronger hand position and again got no real reaction. The new Viper has a lot more volume (33 mL) compared to the old (~24 ml) so I was expecting to get a lot of skid once the lanes broke down some. Was there too much oil for the BWB or was it also burning up?
What gets me is the ball reaction of the guy bowling with me. He's got a ton of hand and slower ball speed. His ball will pretty much hook 10+ more boards than mine on every condition. He had very little reaction no matter where he threw. Cell, Special Agent, Black widow Pearl - inside, track, outside, they all looked more the same than different. With 33 mL of oil, certainly there should have been a part of the lane for him to get proper skid, hook, and roll.
Based on what I've read here, I can certainly believe that in scenario #1, my Nexxus was too much ball for the condition. But I'm scratching my head over #2. Not only for my BWB but also for my friend having such a bad reaction with everything.
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Strider
Having thrown the Nexxus, that ball will almost always burn up and be too much for a lot of patterns, unless you have really high tilt or a lot of rotation. I have to agree that the ball is burning up for you though.
On the second scenario, you have to look at the balls you are throwing. I have all 3 balls you have mentioned and the manufacturer and how old they are is what is probably giving you these reactions. Brunswicks will almost always see the lane, especially older ones like the Sieges and Revolvers. These balls were known to be great at seeing the mid lanes. They are also newer than the Bite. It is really hard to compare even a few year old balls(there are a few exceptions) to newer stuff. What was once a strong ball(as in your Bite) maybe good for just medium patterns if it is a fresh cover and if it is used be a great breakdown ball. I'd have to say the Bite was just not seeing the lane and missing the part of the lane your Loaded and Wicked were seeing. It is an older Hammer ball which they were known to get down the lane rather easy. Your friend falls into the same category probably of too old of equipment.
I am drawing conclusions though without seeing either of you two bowl or how old your equipment is or how well you take care of it. I would be willing to bet if you drilled up a new ball that would be in the category of the balls you have, it would read in the mids much better and give you the shape you are looking for. Or just changing the surfaces of your current balls to allow them to slow down in the proper part of the lanes.
I hope this helps and good luck in your tournament!
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Thanks for the reply.
The Wicked Siege is several years old and has seen a LOT of use. It really fits my game and it works really good on almost every sport pattern I bowl on. I've de-oiled it 4-5 times so at any given time it's probably 80-90% of what it was originally. I just picked up the Loaded Revolver on close out last fall so it's pretty new. The Black Widow Bite is older as you mentioned but it really doesn't have a ton of games on it. It never really looked good on a house shot, and I don't normally need that much ball on my sport shots (the PBA patterns where I bowl seem to get lighter in volume every year or my ball roll has become much heavier). I have always had very low tilt and I've reduced my axis rotation a lot over the years (less THS and more sport shots).
That being said, I'm still confused about my BWB's reaction (and my friend's) on the new Viper. On Badger, the BWB and Nexxus hook a similar amount. The BWB is earlier and smoother/rollier while the Nexxus is straighter through the front with a sharper move on the back. The BWB is still plenty strong. Maybe it was still just too early (to see) on Viper, but with the volume increase it would be surprising if it was flared/rolled out super early. I also threw a polished Nuts Pearl on Viper and it didn't get much of a reaction, so it's not like the pattern was overly dry.
I'm pretty sure the Nexxus was too much ball for Scorpion (scenario #1), but the covers on that line from Brunswick are super clean through the front part of the lane. The Wicked Siege was pretty much a dart on my old THS leagues. I had to bring it to 2000 abralon for a good reaction. It's now at 3000 with the Loaded Revolver at 2000. With them both at 2000 (my sweet spot for most sport shots) they were too similar. Anyway, even though I'm pretty sure the Nexxus was too much, with as clean the cover is, it sure looked like it was just skidding. That's why I'm trying to find a better way to tell by watching the ball's reaction. Most leagues and tournaments give you so little practice time I want to read my reactions as soon as possible.
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I feel then that you need to look at the surface of the center. Is this a center you bowl in normally? The center characteristics might be the reason of the lack of reaction from your BWB. Centers are definitely interesting and makes you need to have an open mind. I have been places where my 4 or 5 ball outhook and roll better than my 1 and 2 balls on fresh.
The best way to see it during practice is to put a piece of tape on your pap. You can see where it actually is changing phases. I actually had a similar issue with one of my Marvel S's this season. It was rolling at 10 feet but it looked like it was skidding and missing the spot. I would suggest this and once you see where the tape is moving, then you can concentrate on how the colors change on the ball or colored tips move on the ball so you can see it in tournaments.
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More things to think about....
This is the house where my PBA league is. I think it's pro anvilane but I'm not positive. Thee isn't any defined "memory" or worn area that dominates the oil patterns, although the gutter is frequently playable even on longer patterns (with my softer speed). I generally practice every weekend when they put out the upcoming shot. I always bring a variety of equipment and play all over the lane looking for anything that is there. That's why I always try the gutter. I'm not worried about score.
I do use the BWB at this center on the slicker/longer patterns. I like it on the fresh on Badger when nothing else wrinkles. I need the early movement for game 1; the Nexxus doesn't "seem" to cut it the first game. After the first game I usually need to make a substantial move. After the BWB wears out the heads where I start, small moves with either the BWB or Nexxus don't seem to work. Maybe I don't move enough? One or two boards look like they over skid. Maybe I'm still in the burn - not moving enough? The first week was super slick (for me) all 3 games. The other two weeks after the first game I had to move in quite a bit and shell down. I didn't have a lot of hook, but get enough movement down lane to know I couldn't use anything stronger.
I'm 100% better than I was a few years ago, but I still know my limitations. Even when I play "straight up" I usually belly the ball a few boards. When I play the gutter, I'm still like 4/5 in the heads, but I can hit 1/2 at the break point when I'm on. For Badger on the fresh, I'm honestly straight up 4, maybe pointing it at the head pin just a bit. If I try up 12-14 or between 3rd and 4th arrow with just a bit of belly, my ball just skids until just in front of the 3 pin. That's why I want the early roll of the BWB. The Nexxus seems to be too clean through the majority of the lane.
I might have to shoot some more video. I really don't see the ball distinctly until the arrows. I have bifocals now; maybe it's hard to switch between the two "fields" as my head moves up. Maybe video might show me how the ball is acting in the first 20'. I don't use grips, but the tape should show me what I need to see.